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Wright writes.....


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41 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Who knows David?

 

As far as I'm aware (meaning I've not been asked for help) there is nothing on any RTR radar to suggest that the LNER streamliners are being considered, but they'd be mighty fine things if they were.

 

Though the LNER streamliners never ran as dedicated sets after the war, all the cars were used in BR days (apart from two pairs destroyed by fire at Doncaster - not war-related), in some cases running in named trains. Trains such as 'The Master Cutler', 'The South Yorkshireman', 'The Talisman', 'The West Riding' and the round-about 'Fife Coast Express'. The ex-Silver Jubilee' catering triplet was employed in a fast Newcastle-Kings Cross service throughout the '50s, and the two ex-Coronation Observation Cars were used on specials and in The Highlands, in both original and rebuilt form. 

 

The big difference between the LNER streamliners and the first LMS 'Coronation Scot' was that the former were entirely new trains; not just standard existing cars dressed up with pressure ventilation and a different coat of paint. The later 'Coronation Scot', the one which went to America and was marooned because of the War, was a different concept, but it never ran as a dedicated rake in service. Some of the cars were used post-War - one of the rear ones seeing service in the 'North Wales Land Cruises' sets. 

 

Kits have existed for making the LNER streamlined cars for many years....................255319766_09A42509onSilverJubileeHornby.jpg.e17fac6f2c661dc2ee78b8219474eb13.jpg

 

Geoff Haynes made/painted this Marc Models 'Silver Jubilee' rake for the late John Brown of Spalding MRC. It's in the original seven-car configuration, and the Hornby A4 has been repainted to suit. Unfortunately, it tows the wrong type of tender. 

 

862723847_Trainsrunning07TheSilverJubilee.jpg.33a77a2423a60d03f09a8e12767c678a.jpg

 

This is a Mailcoach SJ, which runs on Grantham and ran three years ago on Little Bytham during the LNER weekend. I think it's fair to say it has 'ride-height' issues.........................

 

I've made several of the Mailcoach ex-LNER streamliners.....................

 

1538442469_Mailcoachex-SilverJubileetriplet.jpg.a1531ed67bd1d3a7337f2ec14737eb57.jpg

 

The ex-'Silver Jubilee' catering triplet.

 

1016675188_AfternoonTalisman01.jpg.1c9959a02ef4153b9da56838865e7409.jpg

 

And the ex-'Coronation' twin FOs (the third and fourth cars) for service in the afternoon 'Talisman'.

 

1851461349_Trains07TheWestRiding.jpg.73f677b95bc73f401872b937340f6ce2.jpg

 

As well as the ex-LNER 'West Riding' BSO/SO and RK/RSO artics for use in the BR 'West Riding'.

 

1442398336_WestRiding.jpg.1dd8b6b0610479d1f17a7dbc92a77658.jpg

 

Their different roof profiles can be seen in this elevated shot.

 

I admit to not having fitted the extra doors to these cars. In my defence, they were built long before such things were widely known. 

 

307466993_Retford11A3onTalisman.jpg.f639d9d20822f6d5f8858d20a4204b33.jpg

 

Ex-'Coronation' twin FOs run in Retford's 'Talisman' (the 5th and 6th cars), but these are made of metal, not plastic. 

 

It would be nice to think that (one day) the fantastic LNER streamliners might be available RTR. The 'Coronations', the 'West Riding' and the spare set would probably make the most sense, since all four rakes were the same consist (apart from the summer-only Observation Cars in the 'Coronation'). The raised lettering might present a problem for BR days, though the spare set just had roof boards. 

 

As I say, who knows?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Good morning Tony,

Many thanks for such comprehensive answer. I wasn't specifically fishing, merely musing. Having seen the representations in your  photos of the dedicated trains. The later liveries in the flesh on LB there would certainly be a wow factor to such vehicles for a manufacturer.

That said I'm sure there's demand for maroon Thompson's. I'm aware that Isinglass is looking at Pantry Third and hopefully others.

Regards

David

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

It would be nice to think that (one day) the fantastic LNER streamliners might be available RTR. The 'Coronations', the 'West Riding' and the spare set would probably make the most sense, since all four rakes were the same consist (apart from the summer-only Observation Cars in the 'Coronation'). The raised lettering might present a problem for BR days, though the spare set just had roof boards.


Not to mention the mother of all NRM gift shop special editions: 4468 + NER dynamometer car + 6-car Coronation spare-set. Perhaps complete with 1:76 Duddington driver figure with his cap on backwards...

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21 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Apologies Tony - I've reduced myself to being a mere box opener ...

 

 

DSC01142.JPG.f3294cd4cdb4452163bcd93a27fdc463.JPG

Does look rather at home though, doesn't it?

 

My goodness, what riches we have at our disposal these days. As you often say, what's left to kit / scratchbuild, other than for the very fun of doing it?

 

For me, it's all about the setting with this train and there's other rolling stock items I can focus on (eg sleeper vehicles) and just enjoy the overall visual impact of the Coro Scot on the layout. I intend bringing this along with us when exhibitions resume. Loco needs a bit of work, mind - it's a previous era Hornby offering. I had to economise somewhere!

 

More pictures on my layout thread if anyone's interested

(This picture is about the closest angle and positioning I could get to the classic LMS Norman Wilkinson poster. If anyone fancies a 'go' at it they're more than welcome...)

It looks mightily-impressive, Graham!

 

Is it sold as a complete rake? The reason I ask is were the individual cars 'scattered' post-War, as was the case with the LNER streamliners?

 

And, was there commonality of types between these cars and the 'standard' LMS contemporaries? Other than the pressure ventilation ducting on the roofs (and the livery, of course), were they much different? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

255319766_09A42509onSilverJubileeHornby.jpg.e17fac6f2c661dc2ee78b8219474eb13.jpg

 

Geoff Haynes made/painted this Marc Models 'Silver Jubilee' rake for the late John Brown of Spalding MRC. It's in the original seven-car configuration, and the Hornby A4 has been repainted to suit. Unfortunately, it tows the wrong type of tender. 

 

That would be this set Tony (running on my layout, Gresley Jn) which you sold to me. It's out of period for me but I do rather like it!

 

 

 

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Gentlemen and Ladies,

For you J6 models whose decals did you use for the cab numbers?  I think I have to get some white numbers.  However, about 30 minutes ago I saw a J6 on a Scaleforum video with cream numbers and now would appreciate comments on whether the numbers should be white or cream.

Thanks

Edited by Theakerr
added more after wathcing a video on Scaleforum 2021
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14 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

That would be this set Tony (running on my layout, Gresley Jn) which you sold to me. It's out of period for me but I do rather like it!

 

 

 

Thanks Andy,

 

I'd forgotten to whom I sold it.

 

An RTR set from Hornby in the future? Who knows?

 

I've got the Marc Models twin 1st to build, but it'll be without the skirts and in maroon. Simple, especially since it wasn't lined. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Is it sold as a complete rake? The reason I ask is were the individual cars 'scattered' post-War, as was the case with the LNER streamliners?

The coaches are sold individually, although retailers might sell them as a rake. But Hornby have clearly catered for people buying them as a rake as some of the vehicles are the same type (namely the two Kitchen Cars and three Third Opens) but carrying different numbers so 'well done' Hornby. As far as I'm aware, the vehicles were all returned to normal service post war. I just read over the last 24 hours that two of the kitchen cars were actually converted into inspection saloons, one of which survives to this day.

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

And, was there commonality of types between these cars and the 'standard' LMS contemporaries? Other than the pressure ventilation ducting on the roofs (and the livery, of course), were they much different? 

ALL of the vehicles were to standard LMS diagrams; none were built specially for the train (unlike the 1939 train which was specially designed). It was just the PV equipment that was fitted additionally (carpets and curtains as well, no doubt). To be exact:

Brake Corridor First (BFK) to D1910

Corridor First (FK) to D1930

Restaurant Open First (RFO) to D1902

Kitchen Car (RK) to D1912

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Kitchen Car (RK) to D1912

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Brake Corridor Third (BTK) to D1905

 

Again, I've read the rather nice story over the last 24 hours that Hornby were unsure about aspects of the RFO vehicle; fortunately, one survives as part of the gorgeous LMS rake on the Severn Valley Railway so they just popped down there to check it out. So, yes, just standard vehicles.

 

Of note, is that the PV ducting on the models is integral moulded as part of the roof so not just a straightforward re-livery to revert to standard use vehicles. It remains to be seen what Hornby have planned in that regard. The Kitchen Cars, however, have no PV equipment so they would appear to be easiest to make generally available ... and what a great vehicle that would be for more realistic LMS/LMR train formations.

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56 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

The coaches are sold individually, although retailers might sell them as a rake. But Hornby have clearly catered for people buying them as a rake as some of the vehicles are the same type (namely the two Kitchen Cars and three Third Opens) but carrying different numbers so 'well done' Hornby. As far as I'm aware, the vehicles were all returned to normal service post war. I just read over the last 24 hours that two of the kitchen cars were actually converted into inspection saloons, one of which survives to this day.

 

ALL of the vehicles were to standard LMS diagrams; none were built specially for the train (unlike the 1939 train which was specially designed). It was just the PV equipment that was fitted additionally (carpets and curtains as well, no doubt). To be exact:

Brake Corridor First (BFK) to D1910

Corridor First (FK) to D1930

Restaurant Open First (RFO) to D1902

Kitchen Car (RK) to D1912

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Kitchen Car (RK) to D1912

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Brake Corridor Third (BTK) to D1905

 

Again, I've read the rather nice story over the last 24 hours that Hornby were unsure about aspects of the RFO vehicle; fortunately, one survives as part of the gorgeous LMS rake on the Severn Valley Railway so they just popped down there to check it out. So, yes, just standard vehicles.

 

Of note, is that the PV ducting on the models is integral moulded as part of the roof so not just a straightforward re-livery to revert to standard use vehicles. It remains to be seen what Hornby have planned in that regard. The Kitchen Cars, however, have no PV equipment so they would appear to be easiest to make generally available ... and what a great vehicle that would be for more realistic LMS/LMR train formations.

The brake firsts and corridor firsts were built new for the trains as there were no spares available for conversion. The others were conversions of existing carriages but they were given new diagram numbers on account of the pressure ventilation and other differences. Although all nine were conversions, the open thirds were the only 42-seat examples to the so-called 'Period III' styling. The kitchen cars were standard apart from the livery.

 

All of the stock could be made in three other liveries: LMS post-war crimson lake (the stock was restored to general service in 1947), BR crimson and cream and BR maroon.

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12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

307466993_Retford11A3onTalisman.jpg.f639d9d20822f6d5f8858d20a4204b33.jpg

 

Ex-'Coronation' twin FOs run in Retford's 'Talisman' (the 5th and 6th cars), but these are made of metal, not plastic. 

 

It would be nice to think that (one day) the fantastic LNER streamliners might be available RTR. The 'Coronations', the 'West Riding' and the spare set would probably make the most sense, since all four rakes were the same consist (apart from the summer-only Observation Cars in the 'Coronation'). The raised lettering might present a problem for BR days, though the spare set just had roof boards. 

 

As I say, who knows?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Strange how dated this photo looks already even though it was only taken last year. The engines now have lamps, the Talisman has a headboard and the last carriage has been replaced with a matching maroon one taken from The West Riding (where it was replaced with a Hornby one) as when Sandra purchased Retford, the last carriage of the Talisman was mysteriously missing.

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If Hornby ever does another run of the Coronation Scot stock in pre-war livery, they can do the 1938 version without the carriage boards and with the train's name painted on the carriage sides.

 

I gather from a couple of retailers that sales of the stock have been strong, which is excellent news. Doubtless bolstered by people like me who have bought the full set even though it's significantly out of my modelling period.

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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

"......the last carriage of the Talisman was mysteriously missing."

 

No mystery as I have said before, it wasn't Roys, so the owner reclaimed it!

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22 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

307466993_Retford11A3onTalisman.jpg.f639d9d20822f6d5f8858d20a4204b33.jpg

 

Ex-'Coronation' twin FOs run in Retford's 'Talisman' (the 5th and 6th cars), but these are made of metal, not plastic. 

 

I would be interested to know which etches Roy used for the ex-streamliner stock on Retford. They are, as Tony notes, of metal construction and the three Coronation/West Riding ones have been modified to include the additional doors. As well as the twin first in the Talisman, there are a brake second/second twin and a second/kitchen second twin in the West Riding and the Silver Jubilee dining triplet in crimson and cream is also present in a Newcastle-King's Cross set. When Sandra acquired the layout, a part-built brake second/kitchen second twin, already painted crimson and cream, stabled in a siding. This seemed slightly odd given that none of those pairs would have been seen regularly on the southern end of the ECML.

 

Hopefully, before too long, another second/kitchen second twin, this time a Mailcoach kit, will also appear on Retford.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

The brake firsts and corridor firsts were built new for the trains as there were no spares available for conversion. The others were conversions of existing carriages but they were given new diagram numbers on account of the pressure ventilation and other differences. Although all nine were conversions, the open thirds were the only 42-seat examples to the so-called 'Period III' styling. The kitchen cars were standard apart from the livery.

 

All of the stock could be made in three other liveries: LMS post-war crimson lake (the stock was restored to general service in 1947), BR crimson and cream and BR maroon.

Good morning Robert,

 

Were any of the ex-'Coronation Scot' carriages employed in named trains on the WCML post-War? 

 

The reason I ask is that photographs of the ex-LNER streamlined stock in post-War prestige trains are not hard to find, yet I can't recall seeing pictures of the LMS PV cars in trains. 

 

Were the Kitchen Cars employed in 'The Caledonian'?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
typo error
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I would be interested to know which etches Roy used for the ex-streamliner stock on Retford. They are, as Tony notes, of metal construction and the three Coronation/West Riding ones have been modified to include the additional doors. As well as the twin first in the Talisman, there are a brake second/second twin and a second/kitchen second twin in the West Riding and the Silver Jubilee dining triplet in crimson and cream is also present in a Newcastle-King's Cross set. When Sandra acquired the layout, a part-built brake second/kitchen second twin, already painted crimson and cream, stabled in a siding. This seemed slightly odd given that none of those pairs would have been seen regularly on the southern end of the ECML.

 

Hopefully, before too long, another second/kitchen second twin, this time a Mailcoach kit, will also appear on Retford.

Though I'm not entirely sure, they might well be D&S ones, Robert.

 

The memory crumbles, but I seem to recall Roy telling me that Danny had supplied him with the sides, minus the 'Coronation' or 'West Riding' raised lettering. It was always tricky to remove for representing the cars in BR days.

 

I think the ex-'Silver Jubilee' catering triplet was built from Marc Models components. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
to add something
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12 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

The coaches are sold individually, although retailers might sell them as a rake. But Hornby have clearly catered for people buying them as a rake as some of the vehicles are the same type (namely the two Kitchen Cars and three Third Opens) but carrying different numbers so 'well done' Hornby. As far as I'm aware, the vehicles were all returned to normal service post war. I just read over the last 24 hours that two of the kitchen cars were actually converted into inspection saloons, one of which survives to this day.

 

ALL of the vehicles were to standard LMS diagrams; none were built specially for the train (unlike the 1939 train which was specially designed). It was just the PV equipment that was fitted additionally (carpets and curtains as well, no doubt). To be exact:

Brake Corridor First (BFK) to D1910

Corridor First (FK) to D1930

Restaurant Open First (RFO) to D1902

Kitchen Car (RK) to D1912

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Kitchen Car (RK) to D1912

Open Third (TO) to D1904

Brake Corridor Third (BTK) to D1905

 

Again, I've read the rather nice story over the last 24 hours that Hornby were unsure about aspects of the RFO vehicle; fortunately, one survives as part of the gorgeous LMS rake on the Severn Valley Railway so they just popped down there to check it out. So, yes, just standard vehicles.

 

Of note, is that the PV ducting on the models is integral moulded as part of the roof so not just a straightforward re-livery to revert to standard use vehicles. It remains to be seen what Hornby have planned in that regard. The Kitchen Cars, however, have no PV equipment so they would appear to be easiest to make generally available ... and what a great vehicle that would be for more realistic LMS/LMR train formations.

Thanks Graham,

 

May I ask; what did the whole rake cost, please?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

Were any of the ex-'Royal Scot' carriages employed in named trains on the WCML post-War? 

 

The reason I ask is that photographs of the ex-LNER streamlined stock in post-War prestige trains are not hard to find, yet I can't recall seeing pictures of the LMS PV cars in trains. 

 

Were the Kitchen Cars employed in 'The Caledonian'?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony, I think you mean the ex-Coronation Scot carriages.

 

The kitchen cars were standard so would have been used like any other kitchen cars, of which the LMR had lots.

 

The other stock seemed to be dispersed to general use and there are photos of individual carriages in various trains, some more prestigious than others. I don't recall seeing any photos of them in the Royal Scot sets but that train became Mark 1 very early on. The Caledonian was all Mark 1 from the outset except the kitchen car and brake first, which was a post-war porthole one until replaced by a Mark 1 BFK (type not introduced until 1959). 

 

There is one in this train: 

3846688526_68dc35f2ba_c.jpg46204_nrBerkhamstead_0950-Liverpool-Euston_22-7-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

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4 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Tony, I think you mean the ex-Coronation Scot carriages.

 

The kitchen cars were standard so would have been used like any other kitchen cars, of which the LMR had lots.

 

The other stock seemed to be dispersed to general use and there are photos of individual carriages in various trains, some more prestigious than others. I don't recall seeing any photos of them in the Royal Scot sets but that train became Mark 1 very early on. The Caledonian was all Mark 1 from the outset except the kitchen car and brake first, which was a post-war porthole one until replaced by a Mark 1 BFK (type not introduced until 1959). 

 

There is one in this train: 

3846688526_68dc35f2ba_c.jpg46204_nrBerkhamstead_0950-Liverpool-Euston_22-7-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Thanks for that, Robert - since altered. As I wrote it it didn't look right!

 

And, thanks for the picture. Just as I remember PRINCESS LOUISE.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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14 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

I know manufacturers 'buy-into' a methodology - in this case mainly etched brass/nickel silver. Thus, the crossheads are supplied as a sandwich of four etched components, all to be soldered together, with a bit of wire to represent the piston rod. What a waste of time. I substituted Comet's lost wax double slidebar types, which were fettled in minutes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It isn't a waste of time if you want to build it accurately - these slidebars are far too close together for the County Tank, if they had been in the right position the Comet crossheads would have dropped between them. If it had been built with 30" stroke wheels it would have been apparent as the connecting rods would be hitting the ends of the slidebars.

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19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

And, thanks for the picture. Just as I remember PRINCESS LOUISE.

46204 always seemed to have been a dirty princess, didn't she?(!)

 

27 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Graham,

 

May I ask; what did the whole rake cost please?

Best price is about £43 per coach. I'll leave you to do the rest of the maths ... they're already being advertised on Ebay

 

No doubt there's a point to be made there about the kit building alternative?

Edited by LNER4479
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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Though I'm not entirely sure, they might well be D&S ones, Robert.

 

The memory crumbles, but I seem to recall Roy telling me that Danny had supplied him with the sides, minus the 'Coronation' or 'West Riding' raised lettering. It was always tricky to remove for representing the cars in BR days.

 

 

My memory would agree with you Tony, I'm sure they were D&S, although I seem to recall Roy explaing once how he removed the raised lettering.

 

Pete

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5 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

It isn't a waste of time if you want to build it accurately - these slidebars are far too close together for the County Tank, if they had been in the right position the Comet crossheads would have dropped between them. If it had been built with 30" stroke wheels it would have been apparent as the connecting rods would be hitting the ends of the slidebars.

I agree Mike,

 

My point was poorly-made.

 

If the correct crossheads had been supplied as castings (lost-wax?), which would far better represent the real thing, it would have saved a great deal of time, providing they were cast well (I've had some which were as rough as a relief map of the Moon). 

 

The reason for not fitting driving wheels giving a 30" stroke was that those provided were friction-fit, and it's more important (indeed, most important) that this loco runs well.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pete55 said:

 

My memory would agree with you Tony, I'm sure they were D&S, although I seem to recall Roy explaing once how he removed the raised lettering.

 

Pete

It could well be, Pete,

 

Though I'm still puzzled why Roy made a pair (or was making) of ex-'West Riding'/'Coronation' cars consisting of a brake end in conjunction with the restaurant/dining car. As far as I'm aware, these operated (virtually) exclusively in Scotland in BR days, one being part of the 'Aberdonian' consist between the Granite City and Edinburgh. None appears in any of my carriage working notices on the GN in the '50s.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited by Tony Wright
typo error
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