Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Pullmans were cars, not coaches.

 

Surely a Pullman car is a type of railway carriage?

[MikeParkin65]

16 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I think you are right, Mike.

 

46235 has never been repainted, though her finish might have altered after getting on for 60 years.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Interesting point regarding the changes over 60 years - in fact I wonder if might now be quite atypical as it has spent the majority of those 60 years under artificial lights. Do artificial lights affect paint colour in the same way as sunlight? I have no idea. The finish of Lode Star is certainly very cracked and flat although I'm not sure it has been as hidden from the sun as 46235 has. 

[Headstock]

57 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm sorry you're disappointed, Andrew. 

 

Not have seen an LNER A2/3, I cannot comment personally.

 

Colour perception will always remain a contentious issue. 

 

For instance, which green is 'right' out of these two?

 

 

Was one painted at Doncaster and the other at Darlington? 

 

 

This is FLYING SCOTSMAN as first preserved after painting at Doncaster in 1963. 

 

 

A few years later she had acquired a second tender, and been painted at Darlington. 

 

Quite a difference in colour, though that might be down to the film and the lighting on the days the pictures were taken.

 

I know Hornby has actually consulted both Ian Rathbone and Geoff Haynes now. Ironically, their colours don't match each other.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good evening Tony

 

to my professional eye, photo one is quite nicely colour balanced and probably represents a true record of the conditions that the photo was taken.  Photo two and three both have colour casts that wouldn't be visible to the naked eye. Two being oversaturated with yellow and red, three being slightly blue in the midtones.

 

It is well known that the two locomotives in photo one were painted different colours. Whether this would have been the case in LNER days, is a different question. Scotsman is also quite dirty compared to the K4. There are slight colour irregularities in the blacks and the grey midtones, that can be explained by the low sun, the limitation of the film stock the nature of reflective surfaces and the colour absorption and replication properties of flat midtones against a low strong sun.

 

All of the representations of LNER green in photographs are on the warm end of the spectrum. This is were they should be and they are relatively vibrant with the genuine warmth of organic colours. The A2/3 representation would not sit comfortably alongside them as a related variant of the colour. It has little vibrancy and is way down the cold end of the colour spectrum. All the above could be described as grass or apple green, the A2/3 is defiantly mint green, or at best Exorcist pea soup green, yuck.

 

LNER green in its various shades above = the rolling fields of the British countryside on a summers day. Hornby A2/3 green = mushy peas, looking for a spoon full of mint sauce on a foggy day in February.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Headstock

[APOLLO]

I remember seeing 70015 "Apollo"  on Stockport Edgeley shed back in the mid 60's. She was a peculiar unlined pea green having had a bit of a overhaul and cheap repaint at Crewe (if I remember correctly).

 

Brit15

 

 

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Just one pedantic point Dylan, if I may?

 

Pullmans were cars, not coaches.

 

Anyway, this is my coupling system..........

 

 

 

It's dead easy to make and very cheap. Obviously, it's fixed and cannot be coupled/uncoupled automatically, but it suits the operation of dedicated rakes. It never comes uncoupled, either.

 

Out of interest, another 'back-end'......................

 

 

This time the dummy buckeye is a Bachmann one. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Surely a Pullman car is a type of railway carriage?

Hi Chaps,

 

Just to clarify terms used for the posh trucks that passengers sit in you need to appreciate that the terms used came originally from horse drawn road vehicles as adapted by the likes of the Stockton and Darlington railway, and more deliberately the Liverpool and Manchester Railway.

 

The carriage is the framing that supports the coach, think gun carriage, and in the more modern railway terminology, the underframe, with the coach being the fancy wooden box with seats that keeps the rain off the passengers.

 

Strangely with respect to Pullman cars and their sumptuously fitted out coach bodies, the Pullman Car Company referred to their vehicles as underframes by way of the term car which the truncated form of carriage.

 

Here is an early type of coach mounted upon a railway carriage as used by the L&MR.

 

Gibbo.

[31A]

35 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Strangely with respect to Pullman cars and their sumptuously fitted out coach bodies, the Pullman Car Company referred to their vehicles as underframes by way of the term car which the truncated form of carriage.

 

I always thought Pullman cars were called 'cars' because Pullman was an American company, where they call all their railway coaches (and wagons) 'cars'.

[LNER4479]

7 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

I always thought Pullman cars were called 'cars' because Pullman was an American company, where they call all their railway coaches (and wagons) 'cars'.

I thought so too. Two countries separated by a common language ...

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening Tony

 

to my professional eye, photo one is quite nicely colour balanced and probably represents a true record of the conditions that the photo was taken.  Photo two and three both have colour casts that wouldn't be visible to the naked eye. Two being oversaturated with yellow and red, three being slightly blue in the midtones.

 

It is well known that the two locomotives in photo one were painted different colours. Whether this would have been the case in LNER days, is a different question. Scotsman is also quite dirty compared to the K4. There are slight colour irregularities in the blacks and the grey midtones, that can be explained by the low sun, the limitation of the film stock the nature of reflective surfaces and the colour absorption and replication properties of flat midtones against a low strong sun.

 

All of the representations of LNER green in photographs are on the warm end of the spectrum. This is were they should be and they are relatively vibrant with the genuine warmth of organic colours. The A2/3 representation would not sit comfortably alongside them as a related variant of the colour. It has little vibrancy and is way down the cold end of the colour spectrum. All the above could be described as grass or apple green, the A2/3 is defiantly mint green, or at best Exorcist pea soup green, yuck.

 

LNER green in its various shades above = the rolling fields of the British countryside on a summers day. Hornby A2/3 green = mushy peas, looking for a spoon full of mint sauce on a foggy day in February.

Thanks Andrew,

 

As I say, I haven't seen a Hornby A2/3 in LNER condition so cannot comment as an 'eye witness'. 

 

You might well be right that the LNER green is wrong, though I still maintain the whole package is still excellent value for money. I'll explain why, if I may?

 

The type has never been available RTR before. Previously (I'm talking OO here) it was scratch-build or kit-build for an A2/2 or an A2/3. That being the case, with regard to the latter practice, to buy all the parts would be a fair bit in excess of £100.00 more than the RTR version. Yes, it's then got to be made, which, to the likes of you and me is a pleasure - we can build our own locos; not all can. For those who can't (and I've built many Thompson Pacifics for customers), then it's a commission. As I say, in my case (with a pro paint job) that would mean a final bill of between £1,200 and £1,400 dependent on livery. If a purchaser is so unhappy with Hornby's livery rendition, then he/she could repaint it or have it repainted (the latter, still much cheaper than the whole kit-built equivalent).

 

Please don't think I'm defending Hornby; even though I've assisted the firm, I'm not its spokesman nor its apologist. It doesn't need the likes of me to 'stick up' for it.

 

In the end, folk will vote with their cash, chequebooks, debit cards or credit cards. I agree, the colour should be right, and, I'm sure, Hornby has listened to criticisms. What cannot be denied is how well these models run. I've now had five working on Little Bytham (three A2/2s and two A2/3s, so my evidence is empirical to some extent), and all have performed beautifully. Quiet, smooth, powerful, no tendency to derail, no waddling or wobbling and silky performance throughout. All the things I strive to achieve in my kit-/scratch-building; not always with success! 

 

Many thanks again for your comments.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

I thought so too. Two countries separated by a common language ...

The US influence on the early years of the deep tube lines in London led to the widespread use of 'car' there too.

[thegreenhowards]

Changing the subject back to eBay and kits, this is a kit I bought on Saturday, (actually from Hattons rather than eBay but the same principals apply). 

 

 

 

It’s a bit of a mess as you can see, but seems to be more or less complete (there are lots of bits in the box) if a bit bent. I got it for around half the price of the component parts so if I can sort it out it will be good value. Before I strip the paint and start trying to put it all together, can anyone see any glaring errors in it?

 

Also, I’m trying to work out the provenance of the kit. This is the box it comes in with the maker helpfully torn off. Could that be Steve Barnfield? If so, I think it’s now in the Gladiator stable.

 

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

 

I always thought Pullman cars were called 'cars' because Pullman was an American company, where they call all their railway coaches (and wagons) 'cars'.

That's probably right Steve,

 

I know Charles Long (an expert on Pullmans) always took exception to Pullman stock being called coaches/carriages, whatever the origin of the epithet 'car'.

 

Certainly, Third/Second Class Pullmans always carried the description 'car', and the plates underneath the end steps always carried the description 'The Pullman Car Company'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

4 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Changing the subject back to eBay and kits, this is a kit I bought on Saturday, (actually from Hattons rather than eBay but the same principals apply). 

 

 

 

It’s a bit of a mess as you can see, but seems to be more or less complete (there are lots of bits in the box) if a bit bent. I got it for around half the price of the component parts so if I can sort it out it will be good value. Before I strip the paint and start trying to put it all together, can anyone see any glaring errors in it?

 

Also, I’m trying to work out the provenance of the kit. This is the box it comes in with the maker helpfully torn off. Could that be Steve Barnfield? If so, I think it’s now in the Gladiator stable.

 

 

Thanks

 

Andy

That's Steve Barnfield's address on the box, Andy.

 

So, yes, it looks like it's his kit. 

 

Can I see any glaring errors? I don't think so, but be aware (dependent on period) that the dome shifted position and latterly the smokebox door was changed to a more bulbous sort. Yours appears to have the original NER door. 

 

But, you're right; the same eBay principles apply to O Gauge as well as OO.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Ian Rathbone]

A bit late to the party. City of Birmingham is the only locomotive left that carries BR ‘steam’ green, ie pre ‘64. However before it went into the museum BR Crewe touched up various parts of the engine and tender - using the green paint that was being used for diesels at the time. Ironically it is also now the only locomotive left that carries the diesel green. So, a double reason not to ‘restore’ it.

 

Ian R

[Tony Wright]

With recent posts regarding Pullmans, perhaps a look at Bytham's four?

 

Some of these images have been seen before; they've been taken over several years.................

 

The one I've had for the longest time is 'The Queen of Scots'.

 

 

In the charge of 60119 (DJH/part-built, builder unknown/Wright/Haynes). 

 

But more often behind 60130 (DJH/Wright/Rathbone)...............

 

 

 

 

I made the rake from Hornby donors, Comet sides and MJT bits. Ian Rathbone painted the lot. 

 

The Yorkshire Pullman...............

 

 

 

In these two shots, hauled by 60128 (DJH/Wright/Rathbone).

 

 

This time behind Tony Geary's DJH A1, 60114 (all his own work).

 

This set is a mixture of 'QoS'-type cars, modified older Hornby cars and modified more-recent Hornby ones. 

 

And, the 'Tees-Tyne Pullman'.................

 

 

 

In the charge of SILVER FOX (scratch/SE Finecast/Wright/Haynes). 

 

This rake is slightly anomalous because the Mk.1 cars didn't appear until 1960/'61, and LB is supposed to represent 1958. Heh-ho, it's my trainset. 

 

The rake is a mixture of modified Hornby older cars and modified Bachmann Mk.1s (the latter weathered by Tim Shackleton). 

 

Finally, 'The Master Cutler'.........

 

 

 

Hauled by Tom Wright's much-modified/re-wheeled Lima EE Type 4. The rake is made-up of modified Hornby cars, again weathered by Tim Shackleton.

 

What all these shots show is how much progress has been made on Little Bytham down the years. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Finally, 'The Master Cutler'.........

 

 

I read that the Master Cutler is also anomalous for 1958. Still, looks good; some may disagree but on the whole I'm glad I can't hear and smell it!

[thegreenhowards]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I read that the Master Cutler is also anomalous for 1958. Still, looks good; some may disagree but on the whole I'm glad I can't hear and smell it!

The Master Cutler started as a Pullman to KX in September 1958, so it’s fine for the tail end of the year.

 

Personally, I love the sound of an EE type 4. My second favourite diesels (after Deltics of course). The smell might not be as good as a steamer though!

[Headstock]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

As I say, I haven't seen a Hornby A2/3 in LNER condition so cannot comment as an 'eye witness'. 

 

You might well be right that the LNER green is wrong, though I still maintain the whole package is still excellent value for money. I'll explain why, if I may?

 

The type has never been available RTR before. Previously (I'm talking OO here) it was scratch-build or kit-build for an A2/2 or an A2/3. That being the case, with regard to the latter practice, to buy all the parts would be a fair bit in excess of £100.00 more than the RTR version. Yes, it's then got to be made, which, to the likes of you and me is a pleasure - we can build our own locos; not all can. For those who can't (and I've built many Thompson Pacifics for customers), then it's a commission. As I say, in my case (with a pro paint job) that would mean a final bill of between £1,200 and £1,400 dependent on livery. If a purchaser is so unhappy with Hornby's livery rendition, then he/she could repaint it or have it repainted (the latter, still much cheaper than the whole kit-built equivalent).

 

Please don't think I'm defending Hornby; even though I've assisted the firm, I'm not its spokesman nor its apologist. It doesn't need the likes of me to 'stick up' for it.

 

In the end, folk will vote with their cash, chequebooks, debit cards or credit cards. I agree, the colour should be right, and, I'm sure, Hornby has listened to criticisms. What cannot be denied is how well these models run. I've now had five working on Little Bytham (three A2/2s and two A2/3s, so my evidence is empirical to some extent), and all have performed beautifully. Quiet, smooth, powerful, no tendency to derail, no waddling or wobbling and silky performance throughout. All the things I strive to achieve in my kit-/scratch-building; not always with success! 

 

Many thanks again for your comments.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

to be honest, I haven't really thought about it in terms of value for money, I'm not sure how you would judge that in terms of a RTR model railway locomotive.  If it makes you happy, its good value for money, if it makes you sad its not? My A2/3 is a bit of a bum, that makes me sad. However, being a bum, I kind of feel sorry for it. Perhaps with a bit of TLC it might become a contender.

 

What is more annoying to me as a RTR newbie, is that the computer artwork and images used to sell the locomotive, just don't resemble what you are going to get. That's not right. Hornby should think more about that.

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I read that the Master Cutler is also anomalous for 1958. Still, looks good; some may disagree but on the whole I'm glad I can't hear and smell it!

Thanks Stephen,

 

As Andy (the Green Howards) has posted, the 'Master Cutler' switched to the GN main line in September 1958, becoming a Pullman service in the process. It was the only passenger train which turned left at Retford (going north) from the GN to the GC, and used Platform 2. It was also the only Pullman service to stop at Retford. 

 

At first it was made up of the older-style cars (many pre-1928), as depicted on my model. I believe some came from the SR-allocated pool.

 

I've read somewhere that it was the first Pullman on the ECML to be equipped with the Mk.1 cars, but some of them were immediately damaged in a side-swipe on depot.

 

I have to say, I paid it little attention as a trainspotter. Initially, it was hauled by D201/6/7/8/9 (the Hornsey-allocated EE Type 4s), which also appeared on other named trains of the time; but, not for long because they weren't up the job. I suppose a six-car Pullman working was well within their capacity. Later on, though rather after my trainspotting days, it was hauled by the likes of DP2 and Falcon, then EE Type 3s and even Brush Type 2s. Does anyone know when the service ceased? 

 

My most-abiding memory of it is not diesel-hauled at all. Standing on the footbridge at Kiveton Park one early evening, the expected 'MC' hadn't appeared. The signalman told my brother and me it was delayed. When it did appear, it was behind the shabbiest New England V2 I'd ever seen (and there were dozens to choose from!), fairly belting through at close-quarters. I looked through the subsequent Trains Illustrated of the day, but I've never found a mention of it. Since the 'MC' was always supposed to be diesel-hauled, was the 'failure' hushed-up?

 

Some more more model images.......................

 

 

It just makes into LB's model time period (though the B12s had gone from Grantham by then).

 

 

 

When visitors come (again, soon!), I'll occasionally run 'funny trains' for their entertainment. As here, with Falcon on the Mk.1 'MC' set (with older-style brakes). The loco is a real hybrid; it's the work of Tom Wright using scratch-building, A1 etched parts and a much-altered Lima Class 31 chassis, the whole thing painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

 

The 'MC' was also run on Stoke Summit, but using a mixture of cars - modified Hornby, Hornby/Comet/Trice/Rathbone and Southern Pride. This time, the loco is Tony Geary's work (I wonder what happened to it?).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

The Master Cutler started as a Pullman to KX in September 1958, so it’s fine for the tail end of the year.

 

My scepticism was founded on the Wikipedia article, which I accept is not the most authoritative source. That gives September 1960 for the introduction of Pullman cars on the Master Cutler, citing a couple of contemporary Railway Gazette articles. However, these appear to refer to the introduction of new cars, so is it the case that the train had older cars (per @Tony Wright's representation of the train) from its switch to the Great Northern route in 1958, or even before that on the Great Central route?

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My scepticism was founded on the Wikipedia article, which I accept is not the most authoritative source. That gives September 1960 for the introduction of Pullman cars on the Master Cutler, citing a couple of contemporary Railway Gazette articles. However, these appear to refer to the introduction of new cars, so is it the case that the train had older cars (per @Tony Wright's representation of the train) from its switch to the Great Northern route in 1958, or even before that on the Great Central route?

The 'Master Cutler' was never a Pullman train when it ran from Sheffield to London on the GC.

 

 

It did have a couple of 'exciting' cars in it, though: the ex-'Coronation' twin FOs.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

When I was a tainspotter the Master Cutler ran from Sheffield Midland to St Pancras, normally hauled by D1575.

 

[Tony Wright]

56 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

When I was a tainspotter the Master Cutler ran from Sheffield Midland to St Pancras, normally hauled by D1575.

 

Which period was that please, Clive?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[FarrMan]

With all this talk of the MC on the ECML, my memory of it is as a very useful time indicator. When watching from Spittal Bridge in the mornings on my way to school, the passing of the up MC was the signal for me to head off to school. If I was late, my excuse would be that it was because the MC was late!

 

Lloyd

[Clive Mortimore]

53 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Which period was that please, Clive?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

Late 1960s to early 1970s.

 

In Cyril J Allen's book on named trains (I think it is called Named Trains) he mentions the Master Cutler is (was) the only named express that has connected the same two cities but taken three distinctive routes.

 

Our gang of spotters would be stood on the end of platform four at Bedford Midland Road, knowing the next train would be the Master Cutler. If it was a blue type 4, which it normally was, it was going to be Tinsley's pet D1575, if it was a green one it was a cop.

[robertcwp]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hello Tony

 

Late 1960s to early 1970s.

 

In Cyril J Allen's book on named trains (I think it is called Named Trains) he mentions the Master Cutler is (was) the only named express that has connected the same two cities but taken three distinctive routes.

 

Our gang of spotters would be stood on the end of platform four at Bedford Midland Road, knowing the next train would be the Master Cutler. If it was a blue type 4, which it normally was, it was going to be Tinsley's pet D1575, if it was a green one it was a cop.

The Master Cutler Pullman was withdrawn in September 1968, along with the officially unnamed off-peak working of the stock, when the new, fast service on the Midland route began but I believe the train was not titled immediately, but gained its official title a few months later. On the East Coast Main Line, the up Hull Pullman took over the former Cutler's path from Retford and took over the Retford stop. At the same time, the Hull Pullman was the first of the three remaining Pullman trains to lose its second class cars, with the Tees-Tyne changing the following year then the Yorkshire Pullman in May 1971. 

 

The all-Pullman Hull Pullman only ran between the spring of 1967 and September 1968, having become a separate train rather than a portion of the Yorkshire Pullman.