Wright writes.....

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, john new said:

I am going to end my contribution to this circular debate with this - I agree entirely with @Dunsignalling's second paragraph and, yes, the fundamental problem was/is my expectations of entry level gear BUT the prime point I was trying to make is as below. 

 

The very small layout that has caused the issues was meant as a quick build* and later slightly adapted for me to try some new things (DCC is one - scenery items a 2nd and so on) and only using up lots of the accumulated bits and pieces I have to hand. ALL the problem items are recent entry level items a newbie can buy.

 

The track configuration causes a problem with the couplings on my recent purchases and I can see why from my 50+ years of experience with model trains. I am on the cusp of giving up with this layout; however, a newbie could/would be completely put off the hobby for life as they have not yet got that knowledge to determine the issue. All my older stock runs through fine, one of the latest now retro-fitted with older, larger, couplings now does too (but not the two unmodified identical models). That these newer designs should still work on the train set radius points they are supplied with in the train set box**, so are not specialist models, was, and is, my prime point.

 

* it started as a one-off, public "have a go" shunting puzzle layout on our stand at Warley 2018 and I decided to do a bit more with it after I got home as it just fits the one available space where it can be left up in the spare bedroom other than during family stop-over visits. 

 

** Bachman Whiskies Galore.

Agreed. I think the mini-tension-lock was the manufacturers' response to modellers grousing about the obtrusive Hornby type, and possibly the three-quarter size Mainline/Dapol ones too. Fortunately both sizes are now offered by Hornby to fit NEM pockets.

 

The tiny ones are OK under tension but, again probably in response to people grousing about the gaps between their wagons, they are too short to accommodate propelling round trainset curves. 

 

It just goes to reinforce the perennial advice to be careful what we wish for! 

 

In my case, they all come off anyway, as I've been using Kadees for the better part of thirty years.

 

Also, for my sins, I spent roughly two hours this morning fitting Sprat & Winkles to one of Hornby's new SR GBLs. There would have been a simpler way but I long ago learned (the hard way) that cutting the ends out of coach bogies should be the absolute last resort. These clear the top of the bogies when at rest and pass up through holes cut in the floor when over a magnet. I devised the method for the Hornby Van B on which bogie-to-underframe clearance is even smaller.

 

By comparison, fitting a pair of #18 Kadees to my own van last week took just two minutes!

 

John 

 

 

 

 

 

[PMP]

3 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

Have you tried 2x CCT’s together?  Two vehicles both with a long overhang and body-mounted couplings, when coupled together, are where you really see the problem.   Hornby Class 50’s are also notorious for the same reason.  Reverse curves also exaggerate the effect.

I did, 2x Hornby LNER CCT’s and mixed with varying length vehicles, and un prototypical mixes of era’s. I don’t have a 50 currently, so haven’t tried that type of locomotive recently.The fact remains though if the TLC’s were as unreliable or impractical as being suggested, it would be widely and vociferously commented on in the product threads across all manufacturers. 

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, PMP said:

I did, 2x Hornby LNER CCT’s and mixed with varying length vehicles, and un prototypical mixes of era’s. I don’t have a 50 currently, so haven’t tried that type of locomotive recently.The fact remains though if the TLC’s were as unreliable or impractical as being suggested, it would be widely and vociferously commented on in the product threads across all manufacturers. 

The simple answer is, if you want to propel through No.2 radius reverse curves without drama, you'll need to fit the older style wider (and usually longer) couplings. Hornby now do them (in packs of 10 I think) in NEM fit so they are an easy swap.

 

The Class 50 is somewhat notorious, I have four, but don't run them as they were bought for sentimental reasons and fall outside my modelling sphere and into my display cabinet. 

 

The mini tension lock represents a simple triumph of appearance over function and the Class 50 issues seemed to arise from Hornby adopting Close Coupling Units before they fully understood the underlying principles. Again, though, they don't cause much trouble until you try to push things and using the R8220 couplers on both the loco and a CCU fitted coach will keep everything under control when doing that. 

 

John

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[New Haven Neil]

'Some time ago' #cough# our club tried to standardise on an improved tension lock type coupling. It worked a treat but events conspired to work against it - it was the now long-forgotten TT version of the Triang coupling.  Similar in size to the later Mainline type, but metal, and worked much better.  A shame it wasn't available more widely.

Edited May 30, 2021 by New Haven Neil
To add a g.

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

'Some time ago' #cough# our club tried to standardise on an improved tension lock type coupling. It worked a treat but events conspired to work against it - it was the now long-forgotten TT version of the Triang coupling.  Similar in size to the later Mainline type, but metal, and worked much better.  A shame it wasn't available more widely.

You were by no means the only ones! Hornby have caught up with our thinking. Check out R8267.

 

John

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

Hornby have produced a Eurostar set including articulated coaches so they have broached that ‘murky water’ to modern standards. I agree there’s still the issue of price to get over.

 

Hornby would also say that they have produced a HD bogie. The one which sits under their sleeper and buffet is different to their standard one. It has the two rows of rivets above the axle box although not much else is different. I suspect that is sufficient to keep most potential buyers happy although I appreciate that those on this thread have higher standards! The 10 foot bogie is another issue. But it would be lovely if Hornby produced one RTR given the lack of a kit at present. 
 

Regards

 

Andy

Thanks Andy,

 

I live so much in the past that consideration of modern model artics didn't even enter my mind. 

 

I didn't even know that Hornby produced different bogies to go underneath its Buffet and Sleeping Cars. Extra rivets you say; but, are the frames correctly deeper for the HD examples? 

 

I should get out more!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

6 hours ago, zr2498 said:

Superb work Iain.

Interesting that you will be constructing the D&S cane. I recently purchased a part built kit on EBay and not sure what all of the remaining parts are or even if they are all present and correct.

If you get a moment spare sometime I would certainly appreciate some photos of the parts, especially the frets with the part numbers. I reckon some parts I have do not even belong to the kit just to make it even more puzzling.

 

 

Are these any use?

 

 

 

 

 

Of course there's no guarantee this kit is complete....

Edited May 30, 2021 by Bucoops
Changed etch photo for a bigger one

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, ecgtheow said:

 

Tony,

It's not quite true to state that no RTR manufacturer has produced articulated carriages, so long as one accepts that Golden Age Models is or was an RTR manufacturer. They sold a Silver Jubilee set & a Coronation set, though neither ran well without modification as described by zr2498 on rmweb. I have a Silver Jubilee set & seem to recall that you were "somewhat critical" when you reviewed it?

 

William

Thanks William,

 

It was a 'Coronation' set I had to review. At no point was the nine-car rake able to negotiate any of the four through roads on Little Bytham without derailing. It derailed on Norman Solomon's pointwork, Peco pointwork, curved track and straight track. Not once did it complete a single circumnavigation without falling off. It wasn't just a rogue pair; each set of twins took turns to fall off! 

 

Three friends were present, and Andy York (who popped over later and who's also a friend) witnessed this. The manufacturer accused us of having a 'bonfire party'!  

 

My review was never published.

 

I'm firmly convinced that models such as these should spend their lives in glass cases. Not only is the running 'questionable', but the cars are also very heavy (at one Glasgow Show, one of my kit-built A1s was the only loco which could shift 11 GAM OO Pullman cars on a layout. GAM's own A4s just blurred their wheels!).

 

There's no doubt that the GAM cars - the streamliners and the Pullmans - look magnificent. The quality of finish is superlative, and they're beautifully-made. Their home, as I say, is (or should be) in a glass cabinet. 

 

You're right to say that they are (or were) produced as RTR models, but at a price far more akin to professionally-built ones. 

 

Does anyone know what's happened to GAM? Visually-superb creations, it'll be a pity if they're gone for good.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, PMP said:

The reason why reviewers don’t mention the problem with 2nd radius set track curves is because it’s not a problem. I’ve got plenty of stock that under test works absolutely fine. To prove the point here’s a Hornby LNER long CCT vs a standard 16t Bachmann mineral. Both have ‘rigid’ end mounted couplings and represent the worst scenario, long overhang vs short overhang.

 

 

 

 

The other bigger indicators are that the issue doesn’t come up upon the hundreds of products and thousands of comments in the product section here, or elsewhere on the web. So, no, reviews don’t mention non existent issues. Of the many many RTR items (hundreds realistically) I’ve owned or had through the workshop, only a few have had hooks that have dropped off, and the same for drooping couplings.

 

One element that does need addressing in my opinion is a standard dimension and height for the TLC’s, including bar height above rail and hook size, for there are still releases today that miss the mark on height, where issues can occur. 

 

Thanks Paul,

 

I think the point is proven.

 

However, don't they look awful?!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

What a wonderful day it's been today. Hurrah!

 

A day spent running, videoing and photographing Retford, with dear friends, able to meet up again at last. Thank you Sandra.

 

Part of the reason for going over was to see my (now EM-ed) CLUMBER doing what I built her to do - shift the heavy boat train. It should have a B17 on it, though a re-wheeled Hornby B17, even with Bullfrog Snot on its wheels, couldn't manage it and, unfortunately, the original Retford B17 (with tender-mounted motor, but drive to the rear coupled wheels) seems to have died.

 

 

 

I'm thrilled to report that 61620 did exactly what was asked of her. She's on Retford for the duration, Sandra. I'm delighted to be able to help out............................

 

Another reason for going was to collect my J17, which Tom Foster has weathered for me. 

 

 

 

The instigator of 'fireboxgate', I built it from a Crownline kit, painted and numbered/lettered it. 

 

I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have Tom's work on my creations. He stands as one of the best weatherers right now, as this beautifully-natural, humble 0-6-0 proves.

 

Thank you Tom. 

 

 

[Tom F]

33 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

Another reason for going was to collect my J17, which Tom Foster has weathered for me. 

 

 

 

The instigator of 'fireboxgate', I built it from a Crownline kit, painted and numbered/lettered it. 

 

I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have Tom's work on my creations. He stands as one of the best weatherers right now, as this beautifully-natural, humble 0-6-0 proves.

 

Thank you Tom. 

 

 

 

An absolute pleasure, you are too kind!

It was great to see Retford again (must have been 2016 when I was last there). Thank you Sandra for a lovely afternoon!

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Tom F

[thegreenhowards]

 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

 

I didn't even know that Hornby produced different bogies to go underneath its Buffet and Sleeping Cars. Extra rivets you say; but, are the frames correctly deeper for the HD examples? 
 

No they’re not deeper. I did show you them one time when I visited and you weren’t impressed! I make do with them when I’ve used a Hornby donor coach as they fit well but they’re not great. The point I was trying to make is that Hornby will regard it as a job done so we won’t get a better example but on the plus side it’s one obstacle to streamlined stock that they won’t worry about.

 

regards

 

Andy

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

I did, 2x Hornby LNER CCT’s and mixed with varying length vehicles, and un prototypical mixes of era’s. I don’t have a 50 currently, so haven’t tried that type of locomotive recently.The fact remains though if the TLC’s were as unreliable or impractical as being suggested, it would be widely and vociferously commented on in the product threads across all manufacturers. 

I can only presume that relatively few purchasers use them in ways that provoke the misbehaviour described earlier.

 

John

[pete55]

1 hour ago, Tom F said:

It was great to see Retford again (must have been 2016 when I was last there). Thank you Sandra for a lovely afternoon!

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, it was fun to see Retford again, and meet Sandra, Tony, Tom and others. Sorry I couldn't stay that long, but no doubt we'll be back before too long.

 

Pete

[DougN]

4 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Are these any use?

 

 

 

 

 

Of course there's no guarantee this kit is complete....

I have all the instructions etc at home along with my part built I'll see if i can put the scans and photos  online tonight. 

[polybear]

 

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Does anyone know what's happened to GAM? Visually-superb creations, it'll be a pity if they're gone for good.

 

 

 

Hi Tony,

It seems the problems stem from problems with (allegedly) GAM's Bank - this is from their website in March 2021:

 

"We wish to sincerely apologise to all our customers that we currently have no stock available for sale and we are experiencing severe delays with the delivery of our beautiful hand-made models, which is due to the actions of our business bank and circumstances completely outside our control. Every effort continues to be made to resolve this with a Compensation Claim against our business bank, which is based upon Expert Witness and Forensic Accountant’s Reports.

 

We are also taking this stand on behalf of all other UK businesses, some of which may have been adversely affected by similar problems, which are not yet in the public domain and therefore there is a strong “public interest” aspect of the righteous stand we have taken against our bank . We will provide further updates as soon as we have further progress to report with our deliveries and available stock for sale.

 

We also wish to expressly thank all our customers who have been patient with us through this difficult time, and to thank everyone in our legal team for their excellent support and advice".

 

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/golden-age-models-available-stock.html

 

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Tom F said:

 

An absolute pleasure, you are too kind!

It was great to see Retford again (must have been 2016 when I was last there). Thank you Sandra for a lovely afternoon!

 

Great shots Tom!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[jwealleans]

On 30/05/2021 at 01:01, Iain.d said:

In the queue to build soon is the accompanying D&S Cowan Sheldon 15T crane

 

I see you've already had some advice.  Brace yourself, it's complicated.   My build starts here, if it's of use.   I ended up with two cast parts left over.  I asked Paul Gallon, who I knew had built one and when he checked he also had one of the same bits left.  In the end I asked Danny himself, who confirmed what I thought about one bit (back of the crab, too late to fit it by then) and said he never bothered with the other.

 

I also used Ambis 40 lpi chain on the one I built, which looks much better.  Rigging it is a whole character-forming experience in itself.....

 

 

It was built for Dave Scott.   I don't know whether he still has it.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by jwealleans

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

 

No they’re not deeper. I did show you them one time when I visited and you weren’t impressed! I make do with them when I’ve used a Hornby donor coach as they fit well but they’re not great. The point I was trying to make is that Hornby will regard it as a job done so we won’t get a better example but on the plus side it’s one obstacle to streamlined stock that they won’t worry about.

 

regards

 

Andy

You'll have to forgive my crumbling memory Andy,

 

I can't really see that because Hornby believes that by adding a few more rivets, it makes a Gresley HD bogie, and that might be the spur for creating the streamlined stock in model form.

 

I'm sure Hornby would make a fantastic job of doing the rakes, at a fraction of the cost of the GAM RTR ones (and they'd run without any problems), but they're not on the near-horizon as far as I know. As for the far-horizon.................... Who knows? 

 

Were it my decision (and it's certainly not), I'd revisit the range of standard Gresleys first and get those right. To me, considering the fantastic carriages Hornby now makes, the Gresleys are awful (the gangwayed ones I mean, not the non-corridor types, which are beautiful models). I'd be a user then!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

39 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

I see you've already had some advice.  Brace yourself, it's complicated.   My build starts here, if it's of use.   I ended up with two cast parts left over.  I asked Paul Gallon, who I knew had built one and when he checked he also had one of the same bits left.  In the end I asked Danny himself, who confirmed what I thought about one bit (back of the crab, too late to fit it by then) and said he never bothered with the other.

 

I also used Ambis 40 lpi chain on the one I built, which looks much better.  Rigging it is a whole character-forming experience in itself.....

 

 

It was built for Dave Scott.   I don't know whether he still has it.

 

 

 

 

Mine is for the Colchester breakdown set. It's apparent complexity is why it went straight back in the box after the photos

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

You'll have to forgive my crumbling memory Andy,

 

I can't really see that because Hornby believes that by adding a few more rivets, it makes a Gresley HD bogie, and that might be the spur for creating the streamlined stock in model form.

 

I'm sure Hornby would make a fantastic job of doing the rakes, at a fraction of the cost of the GAM RTR ones (and they'd run without any problems), but they're not on the near-horizon as far as I know. As for the far-horizon.................... Who knows? 

 

Were it my decision (and it's certainly not), I'd revisit the range of standard Gresleys first and get those right. To me, considering the fantastic carriages Hornby now makes, the Gresleys are awful (the gangwayed ones I mean, not the non-corridor types, which are beautiful models). I'd be a user then!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I’d agree with that and preferably do some EV diagrams. Having got the full brake right, they have shown they can do it.

[PMP]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I can only presume that relatively few purchasers use them in ways that provoke the misbehaviour described earlier.

 

John

Very true. With a free ten minutes last night I dug out two CCT’s and a Bachmann pannier just to reaffirm my thoughts.

https://youtube.com/shorts/-Loo7YHweak?feature=share
 

Using a the Hornby train set controller this shows that the CCT’s don’t derail (most of the time) at high speed pushing or pulling through 2nd radius curves including reverse curves. I say most of the time, you can see that I’ve jigged up bits of wood to make this as flat as practical, but it still moves and flexes, a true worst case scenario. On the few occasions they did derail it was only at silly high speeds as in the video.   
I’m no fan of TLC’s and generally don’t use them, but in my experience on the whole they work, and the contemporary small style are as good, and far less obtrusive than the Triang types.

[Barry Ten]

A question, if I may? Is it possible to solder onto "old" (Margate era) Hornby valve gear? I've got a Crownline kit for the WC/BoB which requires an etched part to be fixed onto the Hornby crosshead- the kit suggests gluing it but I'd far rather solder if possible.

[john new]

5 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

A question, if I may? Is it possible to solder onto "old" (Margate era) Hornby valve gear? I've got a Crownline kit for the WC/BoB which requires an etched part to be fixed onto the Hornby crosshead- the kit suggests gluing it but I'd far rather solder if possible.

I have a memory of repairing a broken link by soldering it (badly) on a Hornby Black 5 I bought 2nd hand many years ago so probably yes. If I still have the loco it is boxed up and in store so can't check it. Can any one else confirm this is correct with a more positive answer?

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by john new

[Iain.d]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I see you've already had some advice.  Brace yourself, it's complicated.   My build starts here, if it's of use.   I ended up with two cast parts left over.  I asked Paul Gallon, who I knew had built one and when he checked he also had one of the same bits left.  In the end I asked Danny himself, who confirmed what I thought about one bit (back of the crab, too late to fit it by then) and said he never bothered with the other.

 

I also used Ambis 40 lpi chain on the one I built, which looks much better.  Rigging it is a whole character-forming experience in itself.....

 

 

It was built for Dave Scott.   I don't know whether he still has it.

 

 

Hi Jonathan,

 

Many thanks for the link to your build. I had seen it previously, a fair while ago, but had forgotten who had done it or where it was. Hopefully  I would have found it through RMWeb’s search function. I will show the build on WW as I do it, any assistance will be gratefully received. If mine looks something like your build, I’ll be happy.

 

I bought the crane directly from D&S for 37GBP just before we emigrated to Australia in 2008; I carried it in my hand baggage as it was just about the last thing to arrive in the post other than the final electric bill!

 

I recall having a conversation with Mr Pinnock via telephone at the time of purchase and explaining to him that I wished to model the prototype that was shedded at Bath Green Park in the early 1950s, but that I’d never seen a picture of the whole thing (the cab half is in the background of one of Ivo Peters’ images) and didn’t know if the crane was a Mk1 or Mk2 version. He said couldn’t remember either, so very kindly included an extra set of jib etches, to cater for both.

 

Since purchase I have acquired a reasonable number of crane photos (none of the Bath one) and various articles and, on my last trip back the UK, in February 2020 (luckily just before COVID) I purchased Peter Tatlows book on breakdown cranes which has a huge amount of info on these 15T ones.  I’ve bought some 40 link per inch chain (A-Line #29219) for the rigging and am waiting on Wizard having some 3ft 6in 10 spoke Gibson wheels in stock, failing that I think I will raid a couple of my LMS 2P rebuild projects and use the bogie wheels from there for now.

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain