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I almost forgot,

 

I was listening to these rather fabulous podcasts the other week, released by the Orkney Science festival to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the loss of the Hood. They are well worth a listen, I can't understand why they have so few views, they are well worth the support of anybody interested in Hood, ship building, nautical archaeology or Naval history.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhyB3iMCnMF_LKPlgk_UxttGZG10A7dUH

 

The archive film of Hood is superb.

 

Edited by Headstock
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If you’ve not been, I strongly recommend visiting Bletchley Park.  It’s a really excellent museum these days with some great hands on exhibits.  I took my boys.  I told them they’d only get a gilt in the shop if they passed the Turing Test!

 

David

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1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

If you’ve not been, I strongly recommend visiting Bletchley Park.  It’s a really excellent museum these days with some great hands on exhibits.  I took my boys.  I told them they’d only get a gilt in the shop if they passed the Turing Test!

 

David

 

I couldn't agree more.  I visited there with my son in 2019 and we arrived not too long after it had opened for the day - and were asked to leave at the end of the day as they wanted to close up and go home!

 

Gerry

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13 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Tony,

 

Rodney had good protection but  inferior protection to KGV and was more vulnerable to the Bismarck's guns, she was also in pretty poor condition compared to her sister ship Nelson. That is why she was taken out of service before the wars end.  Nelson served to the end of the war in the BPF.

 

KGV gets a bit of a raw deal in the final battle in popular books. Almost as if only the magic of the 16'' guns could kill Bismarck, it being a 'super Battleship' and all. KGV's 14'' guns were quite formidable weapons, being more powerful than Hoods 15'' guns and having a particularly massive bursting charge. A review of the Gunnery records of both British ships is quite revealing. It was KGV that began hitting Bismarck first, with her gunnery radar  tracking shells right on to the target. The famous shot that disabled turrets Anton and Bruno early in the battle, that is often attributed to Rodney, was more likely to have come from KGV. The flag ship was hitting early and decisively in a way Hood was unable to do at the Denmark strait. 

 

KGV was putting out a steady stream of fire for the first thirty five to forty minutes of the battle before experiencing brake downs with her guns, mostly drill errors. The flag ships gunnery then fell off as her gunnery radar failed due to the blast of her own guns. By that stage the Bismarck was incapable of hitting anything. 

 

It is worth remembering that no battleship ever involved in a sustained gunnery dual achieved anything like maximum fire out put. that is true of Bismarck at both the battles of the Denmark strait and her final engagement. One such gun failure seems to have been particularly horrific, causing a blow back in the turret Dora and peeling back the gun barrel like a 15'' banana. Rodney also had a number of gun failures in the final battle and her turrets were also very problematic when new.

 

Off hand, I can't think of another occasion when Battleships continuously fired their main guns for such a sustained period, it's not surprising that some breakdowns would occur.  The French battleship Richelieu experience a number of gun break downs in her career that resulted in explosions as in Bismarck and the infamous explosion in turret 2 of USS Iowa killed 47 crew members.

 

With an anniversary coming up, I don't think that Hood should be remembered as a flawed ship. She and her crew did their duty and made the ultimate sacrifice to protect our people. The Royal Navy has always recognised that you don't rule the waves without being prepared to lose ships and sadly the lives of their crews. The crew of Bismarck were men very much the same, lost at sea. Bismarck herself, a beautiful ship but a Nazi tool that had to be destroyed.  Less we forget that swastika and the evil it represents, that adorns her deck to this day.
 

Good morning Andrew,

 

Perhaps it is unfair to describe the Hood as 'flawed', other than in her concept as a battlecruiser. Significantly, she remained the only one of her class, after the Jutland lessons were understood.

 

In every history I've read about her, there were plans to substantially strengthen her armour, but, apart from some alterations, the complete refit never came.

 

Certainly, during the inter-War period, as a symbol of Britain's naval might, she was unsurpassed. 

 

As one writer observed, if ever a ship 'died in battle', it was the Hood

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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Does anyone have an idea (or might be interested in) what a Lima four-car Class 117 DMU might be worth, please?

 

It's 'mint' new as a three-pack, with a fourth car in a separate box.

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

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3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Does anyone have an idea (or might be interested in) what a Lima four-car Class 117 DMU might be worth, please?

 

It's 'mint' new as a three-pack, with a fourth car in a separate box.

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

Difficult to say. If it's mint condition, it may appeal to Lima collectors. Some ridiculous prices being asked on eBay, such as this.

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26 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Difficult to say. If it's mint condition, it may appeal to Lima collectors. Some ridiculous prices being asked on eBay, such as this.

Thanks Robert,

 

The three car pack is still in its original cellophane packaging (I suppose to breach it to examine the cars will render it less valuable to a collector?).

 

At least you've given me an idea of prices. Does stuff like that actually sell at what's asked for it?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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10 hours ago, Clearwater said:

If you’ve not been, I strongly recommend visiting Bletchley Park.  It’s a really excellent museum these days with some great hands on exhibits.  I took my boys.  I told them they’d only get a gilt in the shop if they passed the Turing Test!

 

David

One of the team that built the replica Bombe was a railway modeller, the late Mike Gray. He was a lecturer in electrical engineering and also designed the London Road Models  RSU.

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10 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The Royal Navy's radio listening post was at Scarborough. My father in law was one of the men listening and recording the messages. He said they could tell which U Boat it was by the radio operator's Morse code technique. The messages were sent to Bletchley Park after Scarborough had intercepted them. Apart form the build up to D-Day and a few weeks after when a detachment of RN listeners (including my father in law) were at Bletchley Park. This was hoped would speed up any intercepted messages being deciphered. We all now know the Kriegsmarine were not in a position to attack the Allied fleet.

 

My father in law returned to Scarborough to learn Japanese Morse code.

 

Edit, My father in law visited Bletchley Park, and was told by the guide there where no Navy personal there. So my father in law showed him his pay book where it was noted he was at Bletchley Park May to July 1944.

Until relatively recent times they denied a lot of things that went on there.

Bernard

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43 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

The three car pack is still in its original cellophane packaging (I suppose to breach it to examine the cars will render it less valuable to a collector?).

 

At least you've given me an idea of prices. Does stuff like that actually sell at what's asked for it?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Sometimes. I have been following some things on eBay to gain an idea of what they actually sell for so I can work out something sensible to ask for the stock I'm trying to sell individually before the residual goes as a job-lot to a dealer, or possibly several dealers. 

 

There are plenty of ridiculous buy-it-now prices out there. The better thing to do is track auctions, I think. 

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12 hours ago, westerner said:

Strangely enough, I trained as a teacher at Bletchley park

Snap! (not quite the same). I did my management training there for BT. 

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andrew,

 

Perhaps it is unfair to describe the Hood as 'flawed', other than in her concept as a battlecruiser. Significantly, she remained the only one of her class, after the Jutland lessons were understood.

 

In every history I've read about her, there were plans to substantially strengthen her armour, but, apart from some alterations, the complete refit never came.

 

Certainly, during the inter-War period, as a symbol of Britain's naval might, she was unsurpassed. 

 

As one writer observed, if ever a ship 'died in battle', it was the Hood

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

It's fair to say that on completion, rather than flawed, She was outdated as regards the current Royal Navy thinking . However, so was every other Battleship or Battlecruiser in the world, including those building, or planed to be built by Britain's Naval rivals. If you look around at Hoods contemporary's, there was nothing else that could match her combination of protection, speed and firepower. Nothing else was as big, nothing else was as beautiful. No wonder She was known the world over as the mighty Hood.

 

The Washington Naval treaty and its successors, effectively froze practical, if not theoretical, Battleship development for almost two decades. As a result Hood retained her position as number one for that period. The new generation of fast Battleships building in the prelude to the Second World War out matched her. Hood received refits, like any other ship but what was really required was a major rebuild along the lines of HMS Renown and the QE Battleships. That rebuild would have provided a more modern armour scheme, a new power plant, better anti aircraft armament and the latest fire control and electronic equipment. If Hood had a flaw, it was that the scheduled rebuild never happened. Was this this down to the Navy's reluctance to defame her striking good looks, was it the penny pinching politicians that sunk her in the Demark Straits or did they just run out of time?

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

The three car pack is still in its original cellophane packaging (I suppose to breach it to examine the cars will render it less valuable to a collector?).

 

At least you've given me an idea of prices. Does stuff like that actually sell at what's asked for it?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

If it’s an unopened pack, the best place would likely be eBay to realise the best price, particularly with collectors. As Robert has mentioned it’s worth following a few similar auctions to see what they make. You’ve not mentioned what livery it is, 70’s refurb white is (generally) the least popular. The separate centre car weren’t around long so there’s fewer of those, and would possibly sell well on it’s own. Some units were done as dealer limited edition liveries, again eBay will give you a guide and selling there would potentially attract collectors to get the best price on them.

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20 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Tony,

 

It's fair to say that on completion, rather than flawed, She was outdated as regards the current Royal Navy thinking . However, so was every other Battleship or Battlecruiser in the world, including those building, or planed to be built by Britain's Naval rivals. If you look around at Hoods contemporary's, there was nothing else that could match her combination of protection, speed and firepower. Nothing else was as big, nothing else was as beautiful. No wonder She was known the world over as the mighty Hood.

 

The Washington Naval treaty and its successors, effectively froze practical, if not theoretical, Battleship development for almost two decades. As a result Hood retained her position as number one for that period. The new generation of fast Battleships building in the prelude to the Second World War out matched her. Hood received refits, like any other ship but what was really required was a major rebuild along the lines of HMS Renown and the QE Battleships. That rebuild would have provided a more modern armour scheme, a new power plant, better anti aircraft armament and the latest fire control and electronic equipment. If Hood had a flaw, it was that the scheduled rebuild never happened. Was this this down to the Navy's reluctance to defame her striking good looks, was it the penny pinching politicians that sunk her in the Demark Straits or did they just run out of time?

Wasn't it simply the case that WW2 came before the work could be done and Hood could not be taken out of service for major work at least until several of the KGV Class were in service? The major rebuild of Renown was only completed shortly before war broke out and probably gave some indication of what a rebuild of Hood might have involved. As things turned out, the Illustrious Class carriers were probably the more important large WW2 warships built for the Royal Navy, and they all survived the war, although Formidable was put out of action right at the end.

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1 minute ago, robertcwp said:

Wasn't it simply the case that WW2 came before the work could be done and Hood could not be taken out of service for major work at least until several of the KGV Class were in service? The major rebuild of Renown was only completed shortly before war broke out and probably gave some indication of what a rebuild of Hood might have involved. As things turned out, the Illustrious Class carriers were probably the more important large WW2 warships built for the Royal Navy, and they all survived the war, although Formidable was put out of action right at the end.

Since Hood was sunk by "plunging" shells, was it only a matter of time before the weakness would have been found out in the way other battleships were, usurped by air power? 

Were the Navy (in fact most Navies of the world) too slow to accept that control of the skies meant control of the seas as well? 

The Luftwaffe sank plenty of ships on the Russian convoy routes; if they had found Hood and Prince of Wales, no doubt they would have been able to inflict some serious damage.  It was of course air power that sank the PoW in the Japanese theatre.

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2 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Since Hood was sunk by "plunging" shells, was it only a matter of time before the weakness would have been found out in the way other battleships were, usurped by air power? 

Were the Navy (in fact most Navies of the world) too slow to accept that control of the skies meant control of the seas as well? 

The Luftwaffe sank plenty of ships on the Russian convoy routes; if they had found Hood and Prince of Wales, no doubt they would have been able to inflict some serious damage.  It was of course air power that sank the PoW in the Japanese theatre.

Indeed, but both Illustrious and Formidable survived hammerings from the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean because they were built to withstand such bombardment. It put them both out of service but they lived to fight another day. 

 

Much of the damage to PoW came from hefty torpedoes launched from land-based aircraft but she and Repulse were sitting ducks without air cover. They day of the battleship had passed by then and the carriers took over.

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13 hours ago, Clearwater said:

If you’ve not been, I strongly recommend visiting Bletchley Park.  It’s a really excellent museum these days with some great hands on exhibits.  I took my boys.  I told them they’d only get a gilt in the shop if they passed the Turing Test!

 

David

I went on trip from University (whilst studying Computing funnily enough), and was lucky enough to be invited into the Colossus 2 replica/rebuild room whilst they started it up. Just amazing watching the tape reels speed up, and the hum of all the vacuum tubes. It's amazing to think how far and fast computers have developed, in what is still a time period of just less than a century, unless, of course, you count Babbage's difference engine as a computer.

Edited by Geep7
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23 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Since Hood was sunk by "plunging" shells, was it only a matter of time before the weakness would have been found out in the way other battleships were, usurped by air power? 

Were the Navy (in fact most Navies of the world) too slow to accept that control of the skies meant control of the seas as well? 

The Luftwaffe sank plenty of ships on the Russian convoy routes; if they had found Hood and Prince of Wales, no doubt they would have been able to inflict some serious damage.  It was of course air power that sank the PoW in the Japanese theatre.

 

Hood wasn't sunk by plunging fire!

 

35 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Wasn't it simply the case that WW2 came before the work could be done and Hood could not be taken out of service for major work at least until several of the KGV Class were in service? The major rebuild of Renown was only completed shortly before war broke out and probably gave some indication of what a rebuild of Hood might have involved. As things turned out, the Illustrious Class carriers were probably the more important large WW2 warships built for the Royal Navy, and they all survived the war, although Formidable was put out of action right at the end.

 

That's what I indicated when asking the question, did they just run out of time?. However, you could argue that Hood should have been prioritised over Renown, the Hood having more flexibility to have been transformed into a true modern fast Battleship. As successful as the Renown rebuild was, you still wouldn't want it to go toe to toe with Bismarck.

 

As regard the Illustrious, I would have favoured building more Ark Royals, the latter could carry more aircraft and were easier and faster to build in larger quantities.

 

37 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

 

Were the Navy (in fact most Navies of the world) too slow to accept that control of the skies meant control of the seas as well? 

The Luftwaffe sank plenty of ships on the Russian convoy routes; if they had found Hood and Prince of Wales, no doubt they would have been able to inflict some serious damage.  It was of course air power that sank the PoW in the Japanese theatre.

 

I don't think that the Royal Navy was to slow with regards to the use of airpower, in WWI it launched the first carrier airstrike in history against the Zeppelin sheds in Tondern. Who was it that crippled the Italian Battlefleet at Taranto? The problem for the Royal Navy was the RAF emasculated the fleet Air arm between the wars.

 

Don't forget, airpower was somewhat unproven in Naval warfare before WWII and a Carrier strike group would have been less successful in some situations. The sinking of the Scharnhorst at the Battle of the North Cape for example.

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4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Does anyone have an idea (or might be interested in) what a Lima four-car Class 117 DMU might be worth, please?

 

It's 'mint' new as a three-pack, with a fourth car in a separate box.

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

 

A look at the "sold prices" history of previous sales on ebay suggest that used 3 car examples generally seem to go for 50-70 ish - sometimes a little lower, sometimes a little higher.  As this is a sealed set and four car it suggests that a range of 80-100 may well be reasonable.  Livery could play a factor too.

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I visited Bletchley Park in Oct 2019 some 50 yeras after I left college in july 1969. I was a bit saddened that therew asno mention of the history of the post war history of the site. Indeed there had been two teacher traing colleges on the site. Initially a womens only college which move to Wheatley near Oxford in the early sixties, It reopened as North Bucks College of Education in 1966 when there was a call from the Wison governmentf or  more teachers and that all teachers should be trainedteacher and they were planning to raise the school leaving age. I was there from Sept 1966 10 July 1969. I believe it only stayed as  ateacher training college for a few more years before I think becoming for a time part of the Open University. It would have been nice to see a mention of that history.

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36 minutes ago, westerner said:

I visited Bletchley Park in Oct 2019 some 50 yeras after I left college in july 1969. I was a bit saddened that therew asno mention of the history of the post war history of the site. Indeed there had been two teacher traing colleges on the site. Initially a womens only college which move to Wheatley near Oxford in the early sixties, It reopened as North Bucks College of Education in 1966 when there was a call from the Wison governmentf or  more teachers and that all teachers should be trainedteacher and they were planning to raise the school leaving age. I was there from Sept 1966 10 July 1969. I believe it only stayed as  ateacher training college for a few more years before I think becoming for a time part of the Open University. It would have been nice to see a mention of that history.

 

At one time it was used as exhibitor accomodation for people attending EXPO EM at Bletchley. This was many years ago, when most people (including me) had no idea of the significance of the place. We slept in one of the wooden barrack type structures.

 

I am struggling to remember but I think it was either a police or a post office training centre at that time.

 

I bet the tour guides don't mention that "In 1983, Tony Gee slept in this bed". 

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Depends on the buyer, collectors MAY pay a lot to get a box of 2/3rds of a DMU and a spare motor brake .

 

Modellers like Clive and I would be looking at it to fix the final 1/3rd or just make something different, so go for anything.

 

I have converted a white stripe PTE and a NSE trailer into a different trailer.

 

My personal Lima limit is up to £10 per trailer, £20 per motor. So you may get £50 from a modeller.

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2 hours ago, Geep7 said:

I went on trip from University (whilst studying Computing funnily enough), and was lucky enough to be invited into the Colossus 2 replica/rebuild room whilst they started it up. Just amazing watching the tape reels speed up, and the hum of all the vacuum tubes. It's amazing to think how far and fast computers have developed, in what is still a time period of just less than a century, unless, of course, you count Babbage's difference engine as a computer.

 

I do want to go to TNMOC some time.

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1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

post office training centre at that time

It was the Post Office / BT training centre in the 70's.    One of my mates at the time trained there.

 

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