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Wright writes.....


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"As many will have realised I am a GWR modeler but Jamie here has a tendency towards the LNER which just goes to show, if you grab them young enough.."

 

 

So, Dad models GWR but son is drawn to that intoxicating alchemy of elegant Pacific outline and gorgeous lined apple green livery.

 

The lad shows promise ...

Edited by LNER4479
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On 04/09/2021 at 09:51, TrevorP1 said:

 

I've used a few sets in coaches over the last couple of years and they seem fine so far.

 

23 hours ago, SJR said:

I've used Wizard wagon wheels and they are very good.

 

13 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

I've used the Mansells on a couple of coaches and found them very reliable, very smooth runners and - to my eye - good looking representations too.

 

Thanks all for those reassuring comments; I am not surprised as most things that come from the Wizard are very good!  I shall buy some for myself next time I place an order.

 

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6 hours ago, Iain.d said:

I have previously  shown the progress on a build of a former GWR A2/3 ‘Clifton Down’ Driving Trailer utilising a Roxey kit.  Its just about done.  Dating from 1898, most of these carriages were withdrawn by 1950, this one, W3338 going in September 1948 according to the info provided with the kit. Information in Russell’s Great Western Coaches Part 2 is equally sparse. That said there are reliably dated images of this vehicle in carriages sidings in Cardiff in the early 1950s. I believe it was finally withdrawn in 1953.

 

1712162387_GWA2-3CliftonDownsTrailer-Roxey(11).jpg.4b64c12ba2f222c56a6da63526434266.jpg

 

856625288_GWA2-3CliftonDownsTrailer-Roxey(12).jpg.9519ef14086de33fec7bf06911d8d936.jpg

 

What I’ve built is intended to depict this vehicle right at the end of its working life - albeit it is somewhat too clean! From the B+W photos, I’ve assumed it was repainted into BR Crimson; the photos have evidence of upper and lower cream/yellow lining. This I have replicated using Railmatch BR Crimson (thinned with white spirit) and lining in neat Tamiya Yellow enamel (using  a lining pen), respectively.

 

I also lined the inside of the windscreen and driver droplight glass with a white line. The purpose of the contrasting white line was a visual reminder to the fireman of the proximity of the glass when shovelling coal forward in a loco bunker, I think. I have also done a lamp for the iron below the centre window but forgot to fit it for the photos.

 

2002836335_GWA2-3CliftonDownsTrailer-Roxey(09).jpg.9f319b79c4776a1f320597ce5fe17893.jpg

 

Also distinct on the offside of the carriage is that two of the drop lights were cream, perhaps replacements for damaged/broken crimson ones.

 

681550105_GWA2-3CliftonDownsTrailer-Roxey(10).jpg.0d79fdbbe2539bb48e0c7bb8f222d3dc.jpg

 

It’s not quite finished, the roof is not fitting as snugly as it did on the last build before taking it apart and washing, prior to painting. I may have knocked or bent something, so will investigate that; it might need another securing bolt. Also the fitting of couplings and a driver needs to be done. There's also a little paint touching up required.

 

Apologies the over indulgence of images for one carriage!

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

 

Good afternoon Ian,

 

lovely work as usual. I remain to be convinced by the accuracy of the livery though.

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Amazing service from shop A-pt, the mills arrived Friday am and the 0.5mm file from Metalclay Saturday am. The Japanese packaging looks really good so I shall keep the file in it for as long as possible. It says expert on the package, I rather like that!

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I've just spent a splendid weekend (in my usual capacities) at the Bingham MRC's show, held in Cotgrave, near Nottingham.

 

Like many, it was the first show I've attended (in any form) since the first lockdown of last year. Numbers were rather low, though I was told the club made a modest profit. Sensibly, most wore masks and the one way system seemed to work. 

 

My thanks to all those in the organising team for putting on such a fine event, to all those I spoke with and to all those who donated most-generously to CRUK. 

 

I was able to fix a couple of locos (though not three Hornby-Dublo ones from the 1950s which either had dead shorts or were dead) and offered advice which seemed to help. 

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On 03/09/2021 at 23:54, Ian Rathbone said:

 

The model has the route disc on the cab side which would put it in the post grouping period, so between 1923 & 1934. I don’t know exactly when the portholes were plated over but Castles were being built with them in 1923. Let’s say it’s about 1925 but the green paint looks very light to me - not ‘bronze’ enough. It was quite a dark green back then. The buffer beams should be ‘China Red’ not the bright red it appears to be, or is that a result of the bright lighting Tony uses?

 

For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm.

 

BEEAF57D-505E-4627-8F59-C38F00D42798.jpeg.51b81dc8762e523cfe0812905646a3ef.jpeg

 

Ian R

Good evening Ian,

 

My studio lights are bright (with F stops as small as F45, they need to be), and they're colour-balanced to give (as near as possible) white light.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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39 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I've just spent a splendid weekend (in my usual capacities) at the Bingham MRC's show, held in Cotgrave, near Nottingham.

 

Like many, it was the first show I've attended (in any form) since the first lockdown of last year. Numbers were rather low, though I was told the club made a modest profit. Sensibly, most wore masks and the one way system seemed to work. 

 

This afternoon I took my daughter to Brooklands Museum for the American car day.  Now this is an event largely held outdoors (and in the  museum buildings you have plenty of space to circulate) but against 2000 through the gate on a typical "event", one volunteer said he believed they had seen nearer 3000.  While the good weather certainly helped, it suggests people are desperate to be out and about and doing things (especially because they aren't abroad) which may augur well for the future of model railway exhibitions.

 

To be honest though, before the pandemic I used to go to MRExes large and small and many were not busy then.  There were probably too many exhibitions anyway and the future might be fewer, more successful events.

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On 03/09/2021 at 23:54, Ian Rathbone said:

 

The model has the route disc on the cab side which would put it in the post grouping period, so between 1923 & 1934. I don’t know exactly when the portholes were plated over but Castles were being built with them in 1923. Let’s say it’s about 1925 but the green paint looks very light to me - not ‘bronze’ enough. It was quite a dark green back then. The buffer beams should be ‘China Red’ not the bright red it appears to be, or is that a result of the bright lighting Tony uses?

 

For those who may be interested there is a full description of GWR liveries on my website. Meanwhile here is a really ugly outside frame loco - a scratch-built Kruger in 7mm.

 

BEEAF57D-505E-4627-8F59-C38F00D42798.jpeg.51b81dc8762e523cfe0812905646a3ef.jpeg

 

Ian R

I have started at 1923 because from that date liveries, and loco designs, were highly standardised and well documented, just not rigorously described, as I have tried to do. The problem with 19th and early 20th century liveries is the impossibility of using photos to trace the lining as the quality is poor and orange, like red, is rendered as black. Liveries were in a state of flux around 1903 to 1906, and then again during and after WW1. So, to do a rigorous analysis of the years before 1923 would take up more time than I have available.

 

I presume the red frame question was based on this photograph -

 

689402AA-30EF-4705-BDED-0A59C122446E.jpeg.cd7a8df03705ef77ffb1536cf70be227.jpeg


This was a commission to repaint the frames of a ‘Masterpiece Models’ early small Prairie, plus additional lining on the body.

The commission came from a well respected engineer in the preservation business. I have now done three of these, nearly half the production run.
 

The evidence is a works grey photo in Russell’s Locos of the GWR. It shows the lining on the cylinders on a background that is not black. Further examination shows lining around the frame apertures, again on a non-black background. One can only assume that the cylinders and frames were Indian Red. The caveat is whether works grey photos were followed literally in the painting of locos in service. In my opinion the few that were painted prior to 1906 probably had red frames, but not for long.

 

Ian R

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Ian,

 

lovely work as usual. I remain to be convinced by the accuracy of the livery though.

I don’t know the detail of the Clifton Downs coaches but in the early years of BR all coaches were lined out but, for coaches in plain crimson, the lining ceased in about 1950. I have many photos of lined crimson coaches from the period.

 

Ian R

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12 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Ian,

 

lovely work as usual. I remain to be convinced by the accuracy of the livery though.

Hi Andrew, thank you for your kind comment on the standard of the build.

 

I think you have every right to be cautious of the livery, I am too and have interpreted the two images I have of this carriage as best I can. They have been published and you may be familiar with them, if not they are one of each end/side; one by M Longridge and the other by RC Riley.

 

The image of the offside (showing the cream droplights) and non-driver end is quite gloomy and difficult to ascertain a colour interpretation from the black and white. A line above the windows and a line at the waist are clearly visible.

 

The driver end is coupled up to another panelled vehicle so much is in shadow or silhouette. It is numbered W3338 in BR Gill Sans lettering and there are light coloured (I’m taking them as straw/yellow) lines along the upper beading, just below the cantrail and the upper beading at the waistline. In the image of the driver end/side, the waist lines could even be edged in black.

 

The image at the driver end has the sunlight reflecting off the side, providing quite a sheen which, to me at least, would suggest a reasonably fresh / well cared for / clean paint finish; the window glass seems quite clean too. On both sides, there’s certainly little evidence of running grime around the door hinges and handles, etc. This leads me to believe the vehicle has been repainted from the drab GWR brown of the war/post war period as suggested and depicted in Russell’s  Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches Part II, so I’ve taken it to be crimson. I have also considered it might be a fresh repaint in GW brown with gold/straw/yellow lining or equally it could even be a locally applied livery, done outside the official practice of the day.

 

All that said, I could have got it wrong completely and I’m more than happy to be educated!

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

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Well said sir. I too have declined to attend exhibitions that cannot or will not take precautions to protect the exhibitors (and traders for that matter). It seems to me, in the rush to get back to so called “Normal” that those with with some immuno deficiency or who are immuno suppressed have been completely forgotten as well as their families.

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11 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

I don’t know the detail of the Clifton Downs coaches but in the early years of BR all coaches were lined out but, for coaches in plain crimson, the lining ceased in about 1950. I have many photos of lined crimson coaches from the period.

 

Ian R

 

9 hours ago, Iain.d said:

Hi Andrew, thank you for your kind comment on the standard of the build.

 

I think you have every right to be cautious of the livery, I am too and have interpreted the two images I have of this carriage as best I can. They have been published and you may be familiar with them, if not they are one of each end/side; one by M Longridge and the other by RC Riley.

 

The image of the offside (showing the cream droplights) and non-driver end is quite gloomy and difficult to ascertain a colour interpretation from the black and white. A line above the windows and a line at the waist are clearly visible.

 

The driver end is coupled up to another panelled vehicle so much is in shadow or silhouette. It is numbered W3338 in BR Gill Sans lettering and there are light coloured (I’m taking them as straw/yellow) lines along the upper beading, just below the cantrail and the upper beading at the waistline. In the image of the driver end/side, the waist lines could even be edged in black.

 

The image at the driver end has the sunlight reflecting off the side, providing quite a sheen which, to me at least, would suggest a reasonably fresh / well cared for / clean paint finish; the window glass seems quite clean too. On both sides, there’s certainly little evidence of running grime around the door hinges and handles, etc. This leads me to believe the vehicle has been repainted from the drab GWR brown of the war/post war period as suggested and depicted in Russell’s  Pictorial Record of Great Western Coaches Part II, so I’ve taken it to be crimson. I have also considered it might be a fresh repaint in GW brown with gold/straw/yellow lining or equally it could even be a locally applied livery, done outside the official practice of the day.

 

All that said, I could have got it wrong completely and I’m more than happy to be educated!

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

 

Good morning Ian and Iain,


I am aware of the introduction of Crimson lake livery with gold and black lining and its application, at least sometimes. Though the specification was issued in May 1949, a year after the quoted withdrawal date of W 3338. I also except that it may be applicable to this particular vehicle if the withdrawal date is wrong. I wouldn't say that gold was being used, judging by the W number on the surviving photographs. However, straw was also used as an alternative on the new livery, the first recorded use of the latter was also in 1949 and it was also used on my own SY carriages circa 1950.


 I do think that there is enough doubt to at least Query the livery. The photographs of W 3338 are slightly odd. The paint finish is not as well executed as the model, perhaps the latter could do with a little light weathering?  The W number is rather badly spaced, not what I would associate with a brand new repaint in shops, rather a patch paint on an existing livery. A number of the drop lights seem to have been replaced with ones of a different colour. If the drop lights were in such a poor state of repair, you would have thought it would have been noticed and dealt with prior to repainting into crimson lake with full lining? The carriage is also missing quite a bit of its beading. Is the potential lining actually just light catching the gap between panelling now exposed by the missing beading? Or is it exposed unpainted wood now that the beading has been removed? I've seen a GWR horsebox with a similar effect. On the other hand there are plenty of photographs were full GWR lining has been applied across beading and areas of missing beading on carriages.


Given the supposed withdrawal date of 1948, It is also worth considering the possibility at least, that the vehicle was actually carrying WW2 austerity brown, possibly even with orange waist lining but with a patch painted BR number and replacement cream drop lights. The vehicle does display an amalgamation of features that could suggest a range of possibilities. As someone with a particular interest in the liveries of that time period, I was hoping that a discussion may bring forwards some definitive information from a GWR auto expert. I would at least question a 1948 withdrawal date.
 

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21 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

I've recently declined to participate as an exhibitor at a show next month, even though I felt I had something of a duty to good friends to try to help out at this particular event. Having done my best to find out whether the organisers were prepared to insist on the very minor inconvenience of mask wear by all visitors it seemed to me that they were not prepared to do so. I may be double "immunised", if it worked, but even if masks have an imperfect / unproven ability to prevent transmission of infection it makes no sense to me to spend two days trapped indoors in the completely un-filtered exhaled breath of any (or many) strangers who don't feel like wearing a mask, .  My view is that event organisers who propose to allow visitors to simply do as they like are actually discriminating against those who would like to attend but who have a medical need to be maximally protected from Covid infection, and against those who very sensibly prefer to follow the continuing official advice to take care.

 

Now that I'm free of the chore of the working week I intend to remain alive and healthy for as long as I possibly can, so that I can in due course do plenty of all of the things I enjoy. There's no sense rushing desperately / impatiently back into activities that may not yet be safe, so for me it will be only outdoor events, small quiet indoor events, and genuinely Covid-safe larger events (if there are any) until it is clear that the general risk of Covid infection has fallen, lastingly, to a very low level.

 

A beautiful sunny day viewing the North Norfolk Railway steam gala from a safe distance yesterday was just the job!

Agree entirely and very eloquently put. As a prospective visitor to exhibitions I'm afraid I wont be attending yet either until we see how Covid progresses through the autumn and winter and how event organisers react with what I consider safe and reasonable precautions. The Government is already suggesting 'vaccination passports' for performances and nightclubs etc  - I wonder whether this might extend to indoor events too? At the moment the the first event I realistically expect to attend will be the York show next Easter. Meanwhile I'll be buying a ticket to view but not ride the trains for the forthcoming Severn Valley Railway Autumn Steam and Diesel Gala's :)

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13 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

The evidence is a works grey photo in Russell’s Locos of the GWR. It shows the lining on the cylinders on a background that is not black. Further examination shows lining around the frame apertures, again on a non-black background. One can only assume that the cylinders and frames were Indian Red. The caveat is whether works grey photos were followed literally in the painting of locos in service. In my opinion the few that were painted prior to 1906 probably had red frames, but not for long.

 

Ian R

I'm not suggesting you are wrong about the frame colour, but surely every Swindon works grey photograph shows light frames and cylinders, even in the era when we know both were black in service?

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12 hours ago, Ian Rathbone said:

I have started at 1923 because from that date liveries, and loco designs, were highly standardised and well documented, just not rigorously described, as I have tried to do. The problem with 19th and early 20th century liveries is the impossibility of using photos to trace the lining as the quality is poor and orange, like red, is rendered as black. Liveries were in a state of flux around 1903 to 1906, and then again during and after WW1. So, to do a rigorous analysis of the years before 1923 would take up more time than I have available.

 

I presume the red frame question was based on this photograph -

 

689402AA-30EF-4705-BDED-0A59C122446E.jpeg.cd7a8df03705ef77ffb1536cf70be227.jpeg


This was a commission to repaint the frames of a ‘Masterpiece Models’ early small Prairie, plus additional lining on the body.

The commission came from a well respected engineer in the preservation business. I have now done three of these, nearly half the production run.
 

The evidence is a works grey photo in Russell’s Locos of the GWR. It shows the lining on the cylinders on a background that is not black. Further examination shows lining around the frame apertures, again on a non-black background. One can only assume that the cylinders and frames were Indian Red. The caveat is whether works grey photos were followed literally in the painting of locos in service. In my opinion the few that were painted prior to 1906 probably had red frames, but not for long.

 

Ian R

 

 

 

 

Ian, thank for this reply. I hadn't in fact seen that photo but I have seen models of various classes - notably Dean Goods - with black frames and with Indian red frames. (Not, as far as I'm aware, any painted by you.) Apart from the period of flux from c. 1903, there must, one supposes, have been a consistent approach in the late 19th century. I was wondering if you had any convincing evidence one way or another - I agree that the lining on a locomotive in photographic grey is weak evidence.

 

However, I hope you will forgive me for observing that while looking through your gallery I came across several photos of Midland locomotives painted in full pre-1905 livery - 2-4-0 No. 1472 and 4-4-0 No. 1757 Beatrice in the 7 mm section and 0-6-0T No. 1832 and 0-6-0 No. 1783 in the 4 mm section - which have been given plain black frames and brake hangers where there is plenty of photographic and documentary evidence that they were red and lined out. Possibly you were constrained by your client's erroneous specification. That you are not averse to lining out inside frames is beautifully demonstrated by the magnificent paintwork of the SECR and M&SWJR 4-4-0s. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I think it's safe to say we are all fatigued by Covid, but whilst we are permitted to be out and about more, we still need to be cautious. Sadly many are not, I just hope we don't see another "wave" at Christmas. I currently know 4 people with Covid, two of which have compromised immune systems, fortunately all are vaccinated and have relatively mild symptoms but we are far from out of this mess yet.

There is Covid, there is "long" Covid and there is also post Covid.  The NHS is treating people a year after Covid with serious pulmonary and cardiac issues.  And these are from all age groups.  I can don full PPE3 but would look a bit daft at a model railway exhibition.  Bill

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I'm planning to attend two exhibitions of the "club show" variety - one as a layout operator, the other as a visitor, At both I intend to wear a mask and would consider it common politeness in others, visitors and exhibitors, to do likewise. (With the exception of those exempt; there is a standard way of signalling exemptness.) Or possibly common rudeness not to wear one.

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May I take the opportunity of asking what shade(s) of grey - hopefully not 50 - LNER modellers paint their freight stock?  I have used Precision enamel but have always thought it to be rather dark.  I would like to use an acrylic such as Vallejo "black grey" but it also does look to be on the dark side.

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Just now, 2750Papyrus said:

May I take the opportunity of asking what shade(s) of grey - hopefully not 50 - LNER modellers paint their freight stock?  I have used Precision enamel but have always thought it to be rather dark.  I would like to use an acrylic such as Vallejo "black grey" but it also does look to be on the dark side.

 

If representing a lead-based grey paint, then the ex-works colour and anything darker, through to virtually black, depending on the length of exposure to atmospheric pollutants. I don't know about the behaviour of the non-lead-based paints in use from the 30s.

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1 hour ago, bbishop said:

 I can don full PPE3 but would look a bit daft at a model railway exhibition.  Bill

If one of the big shows coincides with one of the 'Comic Com' events as Warley did a year or two ago you'll blend right in. Might even be underdressed lol

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3 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

I've recently declined to participate as an exhibitor at a show next month, even though I felt I had something of a duty to good friends to try to help out at this particular event. Having done my best to find out whether the organisers were prepared to insist on the very minor inconvenience of mask wear by all visitors it seemed to me that they were not prepared to do so. I may be double "immunised", if it worked, but even if masks have an imperfect / unproven ability to prevent transmission of infection it makes no sense to me to spend two days trapped indoors in the completely un-filtered exhaled breath of any (or many) strangers who don't feel like wearing a mask, .  My view is that event organisers who propose to allow visitors to simply do as they like are actually discriminating against those who would like to attend but who have a medical need to be maximally protected from Covid infection, and against those who very sensibly prefer to follow the continuing official advice to take care.

 

Now that I'm free of the chore of the working week I intend to remain alive and healthy for as long as I possibly can, so that I can in due course do plenty of all of the things I enjoy. There's no sense rushing desperately / impatiently back into activities that may not yet be safe, so for me it will be only outdoor events, small quiet indoor events, and genuinely Covid-safe larger events (if there are any) until it is clear that the general risk of Covid infection has fallen, lastingly, to a very low level.

 

A beautiful sunny day viewing the North Norfolk Railway steam gala from a safe distance yesterday was just the job!

There is no longer any legal requirement to enforce the wearing of masks at any event it is probably impossible to force people to wear a mask. Exhibitions (and places like supermarkets and pubs) can request you wear a mask but can do very little to stop non wearing. If you ban someone from entry for not wearing a mask it is now discrimination against that person and they can sue you for such discrimination.

 

It is up to individuals to decide whether they attend a show. In Leeds we will recommend that people wear masks  unless the School tell us differently that's as far as we can go.

 

Baz

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