Wright writes.....

[jwealleans]

7 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

May I take the opportunity of asking what shade(s) of grey - hopefully not 50 - LNER modellers paint their freight stock?

 

We could generate a thread as long as Tony's on that one, but here's my two penn'orth for what it's worth.   The late Nick Campling always maintained that they should be much darker than most modellers or manufacturers produced, something towards GWR grey.   There are photographs which support both sides of that argument, as well as the much-quoted stories of how the paint was mixed and the unknown factor of what different Works Paint Shop Foremen thought was the right colour.

 

On another thread we were recently shown this picture, for which I am greatly indebted to the poster.   It's the only clear colour shot I have ever seen of an LNER wagon still in LNER livery.  Now, it's not been painted for at least 14 years, you can argue about the effect of pollution, weather and light on the paint, but it's undoubtedly dark grey.   That's a starting point.

 

I mix up a shade of grey using different Humbrol enamels - 64, 106, 140, 1 plus a little 33, generally a different mix for reach wagon.   It adds to the visual interest of a train.  If you miss a bit, mix a different shade - patch painting and odd repairs were not unknown and weathering will tone it down and blend the overall finish. 

 

HTH.

 

 

 

[polybear]

On the subject of masks, the wearing of an FFP2 (or even better, FFP3) mask will protect the wearer far, far better than your average cloth jobbie (which does very little to protect the wearer).  FFP2/3 masks have high filtration rates (into the high 90% 's) and are easily available now (though I'd go for a known make such as 3M, as I'm sure there's plenty of Chinese jobbies out there that may not do what they claim) and for occasional use (such as an exhibition) they are cheap too - but perhaps not cheaply enough for all day, every day such as work.  Some have vents in too, which may help stop glasses steaming up.  If others then want to risk each other by not wearing masks then that's their lookout, as the wearer of a decent mask *should* hopefully be ok (insofar as can be)

HTH

 

p.s. Incidentally, a friend in his 50's (big strong bloke - has done Thiathalons etc., double jabbed) has fairly recently had C-19 - he's clear now, but a long way from right apparently (though fortunately not with any serious long covid symptoms that some suffer).

[Dunsignalling]

I bought a pack of the FFP3 sort, as normally worn (I think) for car body prep / spraying, woodworking etc. They have an exit  valve for exhaled breath; as industrial PPE, they are primarily intended to protect the wearer. They have a semi-rigid shell, in a material slightly reminiscent of egg boxes/trays and only touch the face round the edges. It is therefore be necessary to twist and tweak them slightly to achieve an individual fit.

 

The "breather valve" means the misting up of specs is, as previously mentioned, eliminated (under almost all conditions) and the adjustable "round the back" straps make it easy to get one sitting quite comfortably. 

 

Don't expect to "blend in" when wearing one, though, as you do acquire something of a resemblance to an Imperial Trooper out of Star Wars. The "look" appears to make some a bit nervous: I've noticed one or two non-mask-wearers change course to avoid me, which can only be good. 

 

I keep one in my rucksack in case I encounter a severely crowded space that I can't go round. So far, that's mostly been on trains, though the ones I use regularly aren't full enough to need it most days.

 

John

Edited September 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling
clarity

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Sorry Tony, no.

You were engaged in a lengthy conversation with a bloke and, after hanging about, I decided that perhaps some other time.

The 78XXXs remain in their boxes in the bottom of the wardrobe because I've lost the mojo. I haven't done anything for six months, but there are signs that the club will be opening up next week so you never know.

I don't mind if people don't wear a mask, although I know it exercises some. Personally I prefer to, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the inconvenience gets to me. The wet face and the steamy glasses are a pain, and most adults have been jabbed twice. My mate had been done three times. Lucky him. 

Thanks David,

 

'You were engaged in a lengthy conversation with a bloke'

 

This happens so often, and I don't know how to resolve it. Not the length of the conversation (which could be about any subject, not just building locos or fixing them), but how to prevent the situation where folk have to wait too long. In the past, people wanting to talk to me must have been frustrated. I try to catch an eye, and then attempt to close a conversation, but it's not always possible. 'Unfortunately', I'm usually 'wind-bagging' for the duration!

 

On the subject of masks, as I said, I wore one for some of the time. I have to say, it was a delight to be exhibiting again - meeting up with friends (old and new) and getting back into the swing of things. Nobody knew how many might turn up at Cotgrave; it would seem caution resulted in numbers being low. Justifiable, one might argue, since many punters were of 'mature' years. That said, I had a most-gratifying conversation with two of the club's 'junior' members who seemed keen as mustard to make things. I gave them a simple kit (a Wills K3 kit to go on a Tri-ang 2-6-2T chassis, available second-hand) to get them started (they can then blame each other when things don't work!). What they appreciated was my saying its real value will be in what they learn from doing it, not necessarily the finished product. It's exactly how I started. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

FF rated masks have a caveat - they need a fit test to confirm they are fitted properly. We use them at work (asbestos) and the site staff carry out daily qualitative tests and annual quantitive (however you spell that!) tests.

[Chamby]

Re: mask wearing and social distancing etc., remember that government policy is determined by the management of risk at the national level... which mostly seems to be driven by the NHS’s ability to cope with the level of hospitalisations and the burden on ICU beds.  In pre-Covid years, there were up to 40,000 deaths from influenza in the UK alone, mostly the elderly and vulnerable, yet nobody demanded that we should all be wearing masks back then.  The same mindset is being adopted with Covid, now that the majority of us are double-vaccinated.  Though this does take some getting used to, after the scary messages put out during the earlier lockdowns.

 

The management of risk at the national level is very different to  assessing our individual risk.  With the easing of restrictions, we now each have to decide how comfortable we are about socialising, and what precautions we take, depending upon our individual appetite for risk-taking.  So of course, opinions will vary.

 

I have yet to attend an exhibition since lockdown because there hasn’t been one locally yet, but have been regularly attending club days since early July.  Some members wear masks, most now don’t because most of us wear glasses...  we ensure the clubroom is ventilated and people’s confidence has been growing as the weeks have passed without incident.  Then last Friday, several of us got ‘pinged’ by the NHS app, a couple of days after club night.  We have fortunately all since tested negative, so the source appears to be outside the club membership (there is also a cafe on-site that we use intermittently) but it is a timely reminder that the risk is still very much out there, to be individually managed.

 

We should enjoy the freedom that we now have, albeit responsibly.  And take note of the news item this morning that heralds the possible return of some national restrictions this Autumn, as hospitalisations are rising again.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Chamby
Tweak

[bbishop]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

 

HTH

 

p.s. Incidentally, a friend in his 50's (big strong bloke - has done Thiathalons etc., double jabbed) has fairly recently had C-19 - he's clear now, but a long way from right apparently (though fortunately not with any serious long covid symptoms that some suffer).

So he should ring 999 if he gets any chest pains or significant shortage of breath.  There are some nasty post Covid events, including cardiac arrests.  Please don't take risks.

 

When you see me at an exhibition, I will  be wearing a mask.  Bill

[Headstock]

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

We could generate a thread as long as Tony's on that one, but here's my two penn'orth for what it's worth.   The late Nick Campling always maintained that they should be much darker than most modellers or manufacturers produced, something towards GWR grey.   There are photographs which support both sides of that argument, as well as the much-quoted stories of how the paint was mixed and the unknown factor of what different Works Paint Shop Foremen thought was the right colour.

 

On another thread we were recently shown this picture, for which I am greatly indebted to the poster.   It's the only clear colour shot I have ever seen of an LNER wagon still in LNER livery.  Now, it's not been painted for at least 14 years, you can argue about the effect of pollution, weather and light on the paint, but it's undoubtedly dark grey.   That's a starting point.

 

I mix up a shade of grey using different Humbrol enamels - 64, 106, 140, 1 plus a little 33, generally a different mix for reach wagon.   It adds to the visual interest of a train.  If you miss a bit, mix a different shade - patch painting and odd repairs were not unknown and weathering will tone it down and blend the overall finish. 

 

HTH.

 

 

 

 

Good morning Jonathan,

 

there is this picture.

 

 

There are quite a few other images of wagons in the background's of original colour pictures. A variety of shades of Grey strikes me as a reasonable way to proceed.

 

[bbishop]

56 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

FF rated masks have a caveat - they need a fit test to confirm they are fitted properly. We use them at work (asbestos) and the site staff carry out daily qualitative tests and annual quantitive (however you spell that!) tests.

I had to attend a London Ambulance Service hub to be fit tested for PPE3.  I failed the first mask, then passed the second mask after a 40 minute test.  Yes I look like a Starwars stormtrooper!  Bill

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Jonathan,

 

there is this picture.

 

 

There are quite a few other images of wagons in the background's of original colour pictures. A variety of shades of Grey strikes me as a reasonable way to proceed.

 

 

Any idea of date here? The first and fourth wagons carry 1936-style lettering but the ninth looks reasonably freshly-painted with the large initials that ceased to be used in that year. The eighth is presumably another LMS wagon, quite freshly painted in bauxite; the first wagon, also bauxite, looks rather more worn.

[jwealleans]

I can't recall the year but it can't be much before the war.   This is the kind of picture we've had to use up to now - as Andrew rightly says, background shots or odd corners, usually in pictures of shiny green engines.   

 

In this case, because of the unhelpfully small 1936 lettering, the only wagons we can be sure are LNER are the two 7 or 8 plank minerals.  One is in shadow, the other looks a fairly light shade, just to muddy the water.

 

I stressed a 'clear' picture in my comments because there's always an element of guesswork when you're trying to interpret relatively unclear parts of a picture.  There's a fairly well known picture of Rugby yard in 1936 with a Jubilee passing in front.   No prizes for guessing what the photographer was interested in.   In the background are three ex-ROD ferry vans, now owned by the SBAFB.   From the picture you'd say one is mid-grey, one is dark grey and one is brown.   In fact all left the paintshop in French grey, a shade so light it can be mistaken for white.

[grahame]

On 05/09/2021 at 20:17, Tony Wright said:

I've just spent a splendid weekend (in my usual capacities) at the Bingham MRC's show, held in Cotgrave, near Nottingham.

 

Like many, it was the first show I've attended (in any form) since the first lockdown of last year. Numbers were rather low, though I was told the club made a modest profit. Sensibly, most wore masks and the one way system seemed to work. 

 

 

According to Les, one of the show organisers (on another N gauge forum), the attendance was about 40% of their 2019 show but they broke even.

 

This weekend coming is the 'large' all N gauge show (TINGS) at Leamington. I'm planning on going and will get an idea of attendance for that.

 

[Headstock]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Any idea of date here? The first and fourth wagons carry 1936-style lettering but the ninth looks reasonably freshly-painted with the large initials that ceased to be used in that year. The eighth is presumably another LMS wagon, quite freshly painted in bauxite; the first wagon, also bauxite, looks rather more worn.

 

Pre war late thirties I would say. All the variations are present, including the right hand stripe on wagon number four. The paint work on older liveries is not too much of a surprise. The big four did like to look after their investments even if they were pooled. However, they are not the bandboxes of model railway land.

 

8 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I can't recall the year but it can't be much before the war.   This is the kind of picture we've had to use up to now - as Andrew rightly says, background shots or odd corners, usually in pictures of shiny green engines.   

 

In this case, because of the unhelpfully small 1936 lettering, the only wagons we can be sure are LNER are the two 7 or 8 plank minerals.  One is in shadow, the other looks a fairly light shade, just to muddy the water.

 

I stressed a 'clear' picture in my comments because there's always an element of guesswork when you're trying to interpret relatively unclear parts of a picture.  There's a fairly well known picture of Rugby yard in 1936 with a Jubilee passing in front.   No prizes for guessing what the photographer was interested in.   In the background are three ex-ROD ferry vans, now owned by the SBAFB.   From the picture you'd say one is mid-grey, one is dark grey and one is brown.   In fact all left the paintshop in French grey, a shade so light it can be mistaken for white.

 

There is a better version of this photo, I can't find it at present. The leading wagon is LMS, wagon number four is NE. I've never personally seen the mythical LNER dark, dark, dark grey and my Father didn't have much to say on the subject, only, ''they were grey, mostly".

[JamieR4489]

10 minutes ago, Headstock said:

Pre war late thirties I would say

August 1938 according to LNER 150.

[MikeParkin65]

2 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

August 1938 according to LNER 150.

Same year given in 'The Big Four in Colour' . Interesting note in the book about the lead wagon being in 'bauxite' but the colour being more 'milk chocolate' than red as is commonly assumed.

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Interesting note in the book about the lead wagon being in 'bauxite' but the colour being more 'milk chocolate' than red as is commonly assumed.

 

It seems to be about the same colour as the eighth wagon. I think one needs to be a little cautious not only of the accuracy of colour reproduction of colour film from the 30s but also how it may have degraded by the time the print was made, and how the print may have faded, and the colour reproduction in the book, and response of your monitor... 

[Headstock]

32 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Same year given in 'The Big Four in Colour' . Interesting note in the book about the lead wagon being in 'bauxite' but the colour being more 'milk chocolate' than red as is commonly assumed.

 

LMS Bauxite was never red, It is mostly described as brown. Larry Goddard remembered it being so. LNER red oxide on the other hand was kind of red. The LNER adopted a colour that they described as bauxite during the war, it is believed this was very similar to the shade adopted by BR, neither was like that used by the LMS. There were many different versions of bauxites as there were different versions of greys.

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I can't recall the year but it can't be much before the war.   This is the kind of picture we've had to use up to now - as Andrew rightly says, background shots or odd corners, usually in pictures of shiny green engines.   

 

In this case, because of the unhelpfully small 1936 lettering, the only wagons we can be sure are LNER are the two 7 or 8 plank minerals.  One is in shadow, the other looks a fairly light shade, just to muddy the water.

 

I stressed a 'clear' picture in my comments because there's always an element of guesswork when you're trying to interpret relatively unclear parts of a picture.  There's a fairly well known picture of Rugby yard in 1936 with a Jubilee passing in front.   No prizes for guessing what the photographer was interested in.   In the background are three ex-ROD ferry vans, now owned by the SBAFB.   From the picture you'd say one is mid-grey, one is dark grey and one is brown.   In fact all left the paintshop in French grey, a shade so light it can be mistaken for white.

Hello all, a very interesting discussion on colour; going back to the question that started this, would it be reasonable to assume from everyone's views that we're fairly safe in not worrying about the Precision LNER Freight version being too dark?

[Headstock]

6 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Hello all, a very interesting discussion on colour; going back to the question that started this, would it be reasonable to assume from everyone's views that we're fairly safe in not worrying about the Precision LNER Freight version being too dark?

 

The only thing to worry about is producing identically shades of colour on rakes of wagons.

[MikeParkin65]

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It seems to be about the same colour as the eighth wagon. I think one needs to be a little cautious not only of the accuracy of colour reproduction of colour film from the 30s but also how it may have degraded by the time the print was made, and how the print may have faded, and the colour reproduction in the book, and response of your monitor... 

Agree with all of that but I am quoting the book

[Bucoops]

5 hours ago, bbishop said:

I had to attend a London Ambulance Service hub to be fit tested for PPE3.  I failed the first mask, then passed the second mask after a 40 minute test.  Yes I look like a Starwars stormtrooper!  Bill

 

Did you have to use a treadmill whilst wearing it? That's what (very nearly) killed me!

 

Here's one - all these masks offer the same level of protection (FFP3) -

 

 

The difference is the length of time you can wear them and they keep offering it. The hard part is getting anyone to admit how long each one is good for as there are so many variables. Obviously the full face with power can (in theory) be worn for longer than the disposable but even I know don't know how long they are actually effective for!

[MikeParkin65]

34 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Did you have to use a treadmill whilst wearing it? That's what (very nearly) killed me!

 

Here's one - all these masks offer the same level of protection (FFP3) -

 

 

The difference is the length of time you can wear them and they keep offering it. The hard part is getting anyone to admit how long each one is good for as there are so many variables. Obviously the full face with power can (in theory) be worn for longer than the disposable but even I know don't know how long they are actually effective for!

Will getting swiped by a face mask replace being swiped by a backpack as the new most annoying habit of fellow punters at an exhibition? 

[Bucoops]

4 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Will getting swiped by a face mask replace being swiped by a backpack as the new most annoying habit of fellow punters at an exhibition? 

 

I guess the easiest way to get closer to something you want to see is to cough...

 

No I am not advising you do this

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

Did you have to use a treadmill whilst wearing it? That's what (very nearly) killed me!

 

 

The difference is the length of time you can wear them and they keep offering it. The hard part is getting anyone to admit how long each one is good for as there are so many variables. Obviously the full face with power can (in theory) be worn for longer than the disposable but even I know don't know how long they are actually effective for!

 

Two minutes of normal breathing, ditto of shaking head, ditto of head up and down, ditto of heavy breathing, ditto of reading out a script, then a final two of normal breathing - all the time stepping back and forward.  Bill

[Bucoops]

42 minutes ago, bbishop said:

 

Two minutes of normal breathing, ditto of shaking head, ditto of head up and down, ditto of heavy breathing, ditto of reading out a script, then a final two of normal breathing - all the time stepping back and forward.  Bill

 

Sounds similar, maybe the treadmill was an optional extra the company went for to really hack us off!