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Trip to West Hartlepool 9 July 1968. Thornaby's breakdown train.

 

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Heading the train was this Clayton. What is the vehicle it was hauling, the first in the breakdown train ?

 

 

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Went to Hartlepool looking for steam - a year too late !! This was the only steam loco I saw. Never mind, Lostock Hall, Rose Grove & Carnforth beckoned a month later.

 

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1966 or so, Wigan Springs Branch crane off to a job.

 

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Brit15

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10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

When you look at the vehicles in question as part of the whole layout, they do not stand out as being wrong. They are such a small part of the overall scene that they simply become a tiny, almost inconsequential detail in a big picture. They become just a few grotty old vehicles stuck in a siding.

 

When you point the camera directly at them and make them the main focus of a picture, then all the anomalies tend to be highlighted and attention is drawn to them.

 

As Tony W has said, in real photographs, such vehicles are often just something that sneaks into the background of a photo. If you treat the model vehicles the same way, any shortcomings of the individual vehicles tend to blend into the scene and not stand out.

What you've said above perfectly describes why some layouts "work" and some, even if they are fastidiously accurate in many features, do not.  It is often that the builder has been obsessive in ensuring that the locos and rolling stock are exactly right for a specific Wednesday in July 1963 and they are operated to the timetable of that day and that day only.  The problem is when that railway runs in a landscape - the big picture, which is what you first see approaching the layout - which looks like nowhere on Planet Earth.

 

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19 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

960201987_O4onengineerstrain.jpg.098f5ef3e2da048d747a24b19e3c2b87.jpg

 

 

 

With, or without the GWR van it's a nice looking train but to my eyes it's almost two trains in one - one a P'Way train with opens filled with sand/ballast and the second being a breakdown train with the larger coaches/vans.

 

Not all re-railing jobs needed a crane, and sending out a couple of vans with the crew, jacks and packing material wouldn't be uncommon. The two coaches cover this perfectly.

 

The remainder of the train would make a nice P'Way train - add a couple of wagons with some sleepers or bricks & a brake van and you've got a nice spot repair train.

 

Mixing up the purpose of an engineers train is a common occurrence with many model railways. For example, wagons typically used for fresh ballast end up mixed up with those used for spoil.

 

Steven B

Edited by Steven B
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1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

What you've said above perfectly describes why some layouts "work" and some, even if they are fastidiously accurate in many features, do not.  It is often that the builder has been obsessive in ensuring that the locos and rolling stock are exactly right for a specific Wednesday in July 1963 and they are operated to the timetable of that day and that day only.  The problem is when that railway runs in a landscape - the big picture, which is what you first see approaching the layout - which looks like nowhere on Planet Earth.

 

 

Good morning Northmoor,

 

could you provide an example of the type of layout you describe?

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11 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

With, or without the GWR van it's a nice looking train but to my eyes it's almost two trains in one - one a P'Way train with opens filled with sand/ballast and the second being a breakdown train with the larger coaches/vans.

 

Not all re-railing jobs needed a crane, and sending out a couple of vans with the crew, jacks and packing material wouldn't be uncommon. The two coaches cover this perfectly.

 

The remainder of the train would make a nice P'Way train - add a couple of wagons with some sleepers or bricks & a brake van and you've got a nice spot repair train.

 

Steven B

 

Exactly,

 

its a potpourri train. Tony could actually produce two different departmental trains that alternated in the sequence.

Edited by Headstock
add meaning.
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4 hours ago, dibateg said:

Yes - definitely keep the engineers train Tony - another vote! It adds character and interest.

 

Mine is probably wrong too, but at least the maroon 6 wheeler is copied from a colour photo...

 

Engineers_2.jpg.80e6e4226cd2f678f63c1a51cf0a2a52.jpg

 

Regards

Tony

 

Mine is probably wrong too.

 

Good morning Tony,

 

not the case at all. it's obvious what your train is. It's very similar, even down to the ex GNR brake, to a photo of a ballast train that I posted up for you on this thread some years ago.

 

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4 hours ago, Steven B said:

Not all re-railing jobs needed a crane, and sending out a couple of vans with the crew, jacks and packing material wouldn't be uncommon. The two coaches cover this perfectly.

 

The remainder of the train would make a nice P'Way train - add a couple of wagons with some sleepers or bricks & a brake van and you've got a nice spot repair train.

 

I am sure that is exactly what Tony intended.

 

The spot repair train had been sent out to deal with some loose platform coping, and one vehicle became derailed in the little-used siding in which it was stabled.

 

The rerailing train then arrived to put right the mishap, and the combined trains now await a loco and path to return them to base.

 

Simples!!

 

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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With a couple of very rivet heavy wagon kits in my to build pile (Warren Sheppard kits for a GW N18 ballast wagon and W12 cattle van), I have finally invested in a rivet press which should help with getting the rivets a lot more consistent than my old approach using a centre punch.  However my understanding is that it will still be prone to the brass distorting as the rivets are embossed.  I was wondering what approach other kit builders are using to get the brass flat again after embossing the rivets (without damaging said rivets).   Despite having built a good number of coaches and 3 brass locos now, I've never actually made an etched wagon and this is the first time dealing with having to form more than a couple of rivets at a time... 

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Northmoor,

 

could you provide an example of the type of layout you describe?

This is going to sound like a cop-out but I probably couldn't name any.  Not out of a wish to avoid embarrassing anyone (though I wouldn't want to do that anyway, it would be unforgivably rude to insult someone's personal work on here) but more that the names of these layouts didn't stick in the memory when I saw them in magazines or at exhibitions.  I guess that in the same way as Tony immediately spots missing lamps, my eye is jarred by unrealistic geographical features, like when I see a train exiting a tunnel with a pub built about 3' over the portal, or a river that isn't the lowest point on the landscape......

 

I can however, always remember the names of the layouts that were "just right": Wibdenshaw, Chee Tor, Copenhagen Fields, Chiltern Green, Clutton (I did just have to check the name of that one), to name just five.  I'm sure there are faults with all of them, but any I've spotted are so trivial compared to what is right with them.  I've not seen LB in the flesh, but from the images Tony's posted on this forum it would certainly be amongst the very best layouts, those that just get everything to a consistent (and very high) standard.

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1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

This is going to sound like a cop-out but I probably couldn't name any.  Not out of a wish to avoid embarrassing anyone (though I wouldn't want to do that anyway, it would be unforgivably rude to insult someone's personal work on here) but more that the names of these layouts didn't stick in the memory when I saw them in magazines or at exhibitions.  I guess that in the same way as Tony immediately spots missing lamps, my eye is jarred by unrealistic geographical features, like when I see a train exiting a tunnel with a pub built about 3' over the portal, or a river that isn't the lowest point on the landscape......

 

I can however, always remember the names of the layouts that were "just right": Wibdenshaw, Chee Tor, Copenhagen Fields, Chiltern Green, Clutton (I did just have to check the name of that one), to name just five.  I'm sure there are faults with all of them, but any I've spotted are so trivial compared to what is right with them.  I've not seen LB in the flesh, but from the images Tony's posted on this forum it would certainly be amongst the very best layouts, those that just get everything to a consistent (and very high) standard.

 

Good afternoon Northmoor,

 

based on this,

 

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

It is often that the builder has been obsessive in ensuring that the locos and rolling stock are exactly right for a specific Wednesday in July 1963 and they are operated to the timetable of that day and that day only

 

you can only be describing a layout of a real location. I'm confused how that can fit with this.

 

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

which looks like nowhere on Planet Earth.

 

I can't embarrass anybody's layout myself, as I can't  think of a single example of layout that conforms to your criteria. I could consider it possible, that ''nowhere on Planet Earth'', could be applied to layouts that are the exact opposite of what you describe. Forgive me but what your saying has a touch of reverse snobbery, where by someone is put down for trying really hard, while don't care, nobody will notice, is celebrated as being part of the gang.

Edited by Headstock
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1 hour ago, The Fatadder said:

With a couple of very rivet heavy wagon kits in my to build pile (Warren Sheppard kits for a GW N18 ballast wagon and W12 cattle van), I have finally invested in a rivet press which should help with getting the rivets a lot more consistent than my old approach using a centre punch.  However my understanding is that it will still be prone to the brass distorting as the rivets are embossed.  I was wondering what approach other kit builders are using to get the brass flat again after embossing the rivets (without damaging said rivets).   Despite having built a good number of coaches and 3 brass locos now, I've never actually made an etched wagon and this is the first time dealing with having to form more than a couple of rivets at a time... 

It's not clear if you need to emboss half etched rivets or what sort of rivet press you have bought.

 

If the rivets are half etched from the rear of the etched part, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. The gravity rivet embossing tool as invented by John Hayes and sold by London Road Models was designed for this job. It is important to have a suitable backing on which the etch is placed that has a small amount of give. I find some .5mm plasticard works well and only needs a small "drop" for a good result. 

Putting rivets into full thickness brass or n/s sheet needs a riveting tool with a dimpled anvil to support the brass and a punch to press the rivet though. The GW riveting tool is of this type.

 

My experience has been with 4mm kits but the WS kits are 7mm. The GW press has different anvil and punch sizes to suit different scales, while the LRM gravity type has a silver steel punch that can be ground/filed to give a larger or smaller point to suite different size half etched rivets.

 

I hope this helps.

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23 hours ago, rowanj said:

 I can't find much evidence, Ray. I have photos of 70048 at Darlington and Newcastle on a Kings X-Edinburgh (in 1958) .  North of York, which was the normal northern limit, 70020 got to Hartlepool in 1963 on an excursion taking fans to a Durham-Warwickshire Rugby match.  I have photos of the loco on the shed and in (West) Hartlepool Station, It was one of 2 trains, the other being The Midland Pullman set, (now there's one to challenge the  it never happened experts). I saw 70000 in 1964 at Darlington on an excursion. It pulled in, we copped it, then jumped on an A1 hauled train back to Newcastle, enjoying what was by then a rare chance to be steam-hauled.

In the context of the latest debate on prototype fidelity, I suspect I am in the middle ,in that I try to run reasonable accurate stock, but will readily tolerate anomalies. So Tony's breakdown train would be fine with me, but it does seem to jar with Tony's usual standards. But throwing it out seems a bit harsh.. 

I will try to find any reports I can & put them on your own thread ( it may take some time! ) 

  I'm probably with you on prototype fidelity : I try to make my locomotives as accurate as possible but if I like a class which probably never visited York I will have it . After all , we all have a different approach & I don't think any is particularly wrong .

                                  Ray .

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4 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

With, or without the GWR van it's a nice looking train but to my eyes it's almost two trains in one - one a P'Way train with opens filled with sand/ballast and the second being a breakdown train with the larger coaches/vans.

 

Not all re-railing jobs needed a crane, and sending out a couple of vans with the crew, jacks and packing material wouldn't be uncommon. The two coaches cover this perfectly.

 

The remainder of the train would make a nice P'Way train - add a couple of wagons with some sleepers or bricks & a brake van and you've got a nice spot repair train.

 

Mixing up the purpose of an engineers train is a common occurrence with many model railways. For example, wagons typically used for fresh ballast end up mixed up with those used for spoil.

 

Steven B

Thanks Steven,

 

I admit to rather making up this formation for effect (to see if it made a decent picture).

 

Normally, the engineers' train consists of just four or five vehicles (not including that ex-GWR thingy.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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I've just spent another splendid day with four friends, operating Little Bytham.

 

We ran the sequence, and, apart from my usual cock-ups in operation, we had (almost) perfect running. I put 'almost' in brackets because, shame upon shame, one of the pick-up locos stalled in the goods sidings. One not often used, but I cleaned the bit of track immediately. 

 

Thanks chaps for such a wonderful day, for your hospitality at lunchtime and for you donations to CRUK. See you all next year. 

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3 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

With a couple of very rivet heavy wagon kits in my to build pile (Warren Sheppard kits for a GW N18 ballast wagon and W12 cattle van), I have finally invested in a rivet press which should help with getting the rivets a lot more consistent than my old approach using a centre punch.  However my understanding is that it will still be prone to the brass distorting as the rivets are embossed.  I was wondering what approach other kit builders are using to get the brass flat again after embossing the rivets (without damaging said rivets).   Despite having built a good number of coaches and 3 brass locos now, I've never actually made an etched wagon and this is the first time dealing with having to form more than a couple of rivets at a time... 

I'm part way through embossing the rivets and assembling three of Warren's 4mm scale cattle wagons. I'm using the GW rivet press with no signs of distortion apparent anywhere. Hope that helps.

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32 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I'm part way through embossing the rivets and assembling three of Warren's 4mm scale cattle wagons. I'm using the GW rivet press with no signs of distortion apparent anywhere. Hope that helps.

Thanks, the press I am going to be using is similar to the GW models one (whereas the distortion I was having what’s caused when trying to form the rivets without a specific tool) so hopefully I am worrying about a problem that won’t actually happen.

 

 Just need to flatten out the N18 sides that I had riveted before getting the press.

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17 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

With a couple of very rivet heavy wagon kits in my to build pile (Warren Sheppard kits for a GW N18 ballast wagon and W12 cattle van), I have finally invested in a rivet press which should help with getting the rivets a lot more consistent than my old approach using a centre punch.  However my understanding is that it will still be prone to the brass distorting as the rivets are embossed.  I was wondering what approach other kit builders are using to get the brass flat again after embossing the rivets (without damaging said rivets).   Despite having built a good number of coaches and 3 brass locos now, I've never actually made an etched wagon and this is the first time dealing with having to form more than a couple of rivets at a time... 

What follows is rather extreme but the idea might be of some assistance should the need arise.

This was an experiment on long brass beams for bridge construction with a stack of rivets

Punched using the LRM gravity rivet press

image.png.4263c2653fc4f655d78e66f4e1bbe8e0.png

 

image.png.ccfb801dc98ca020d24c190c90c91771.png

 

That made quite a lot of curl!

 

image.png.bbe99d4a6d83ad11b7bae60896162306.png

 

Having spent so much time on punching the rivets, it would be a shame to partly flatten them by using a steel rolling bar to counter the curl.
So a piece of 5mm diameter Balsa wood dowel was rolled over a foam bed to gently recover the shape. It was successful but has not been tried on thicker materials.

image.png.8b4c9f8e33bec3d1706cf12505ca72e7.png

 

Result

 

image.png.d5f3d3774fc751f62b4c5d2ba19576ec.png

 

I daresay the same principle could be used to rectify curl on thicker materials whilst protecting the detail

Dave

 

 

 

Edited by zr2498
Removal of surplus photo
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5 hours ago, Headstock said:

you can only be describing a layout of a real location. I'm confused how that can fit with this.

 

I can't embarrass anybody's layout myself, as I can't  think of a single example of layout that conforms to your criteria. I could consider it possible, that ''nowhere on Planet Earth'', could be applied to layouts that are the exact opposite of what you describe. Forgive me but what your saying has a touch of reverse snobbery, where by someone is put down for trying really hard, while don't care, nobody will notice, is celebrated as being part of the gang.

OK well that's certainly not my intention.  I didn't help myself by writing, "it often is..." intending to write describe one thing then wrote another; what I meant was, "One example might be.....".  I think the examples might be layouts which are, "based on the ECML North of York in July 1963", but are of a fictional location which doesn't actually look like the landscape North of York.  Not so long ago there seemed to be a few present day  era layouts based on, "A non-electrified loop off the WCML in the Warrington area"; this read to me as wanting to model all the interesting WCML freight services but not bother with the catenary, which has been an obvious feature of the WCML North of Crewe for 50 years.

 

I admire any modeller with a dedication (sometimes lasting decades) to get their model right; it is the obsession with getting one aspect of it 99.999% right, while other aspects of the model are (to my eyes) perhaps 50% right, that I find hard to relate to, that's all.  At the end of the day, it's their layout and getting my approval won't be any part of their motivation, not that I would ever even drop the hint that their work didn't appeal to me.  If it's at an exhibition, I would congratulate them in my head for their efforts in creating something and exhibiting it, smile or say hello if they saw me and move on quietly to the next layout.

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On 18/11/2021 at 14:43, Northmoor said:

This is sad (and also not wholly unexpected news) for me; firstly, the Woking show is a conveniently close "big" show with lots of layouts and traders.  Secondly, Tony, we have twice got to meet and say hello at the Woking show when you've been able to resurrect several comatose locomotives for me.  I still have the correct buffers and chimney which you sent me for the O4, tucked away safely.  Unfortunately the tender for that O4 is tucked away somewhere even safer as it has disappeared in amongst the boxes of projects, defying all attempts at rescue!

 

The Woking show is one of those that as I have suggested here before, is in that middle ground of events at greatest risk.  It's not big enough to be an almost National event and get major sponsorship, not small enough to be supported by a small group able to hire a small venue.  The other local show to me is run by the Farnham MRC in an Aldershot school; always excellent but I'll bet the venue hire is a fraction of that at Woking's Leisure Centre.

 

It isn't the subject matter so much that is deterring younger club members - although we are still a minority hobby really - it is that my children's generation (and my own to some degree) don't join clubs in the way our parents did, because they have so many alternatives for entertainment.  I grew up with four TV channels, my TV now has about 100 (and that's the basic level subscription), there is limitless streaming available of so much media, the Web is there to read utter rubbish or to learn about something useful if you wish.  A bored child in our youth had to make more of their own entertainment, as otherwise for many, there really could be very little to do.  The media industry won the battle for our attention long ago, so much so that it doesn't now present itself as the most important thing, but the only important thing.

 

A further factor is the internet and YouTube providing free information and giving help videos so reducing the perceived need to join a club to access library material or get advice. Personally I think being shown/taught "in person" is usually better than by video but do find YouTube videos of use, especially when you are fairly sure of how to do something new, and the reassurance of seeing someone else doing it the same way helps. 

 

With the life style of my married daughters, their modern working patterns, financial pressures and wider family geographic dispersion don't aid club participation (even if they do want to join) for a variety of reasons amongst their age group who are parents of school age kids. 

 

My final observation is that many traditional clubs and societies have not evolved with modern lifestyle changes and are stuck in a 1950-1960s time warp - consequently they don't even appeal to me and I was born in 1952! 

 

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I had heard that Bob Essery was ill but not about his passing. Thanks Tony for letting us know. 

 

I never met or knew the great man but, together with David Jenkinson,  his writings have always been inspirational to me as one with a lifelong interest in all things LMS/LMR. His books 'Railway Operation for the Modeller' and 'Freight Train Operation for the Railway Modeller' are amongst the most referred to books in my modest library. Thanks, Bob - and RIP

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