Wright writes.....

[zr2498]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think it is the same or very similar, Graeme,

 

I've just tested the A2 chassis round Little Bytham, backwards and forwards, through pointwork and crossings; and? Perfect running!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

City of York (completely unweathered!)

[gr.king]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I think it is the same or very similar, Graeme,

 

I've just tested the A2 chassis round Little Bytham, backwards and forwards, through pointwork and crossings; and? Perfect running!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

That's good news. I tried a single springy wire and axle-tube for a pony truck a couple of times, but I couldn't get enough consistent down-force combined with only gentle centering action. It was alarmingly easy to upset the adjustment of the single wire. The wheel on the inside rail tended to lift on curves, which was no good when facing point blades or crossings were encountered as there was no guidance from the flange back of the inside wheel. Jol Wilkinson's suggestion sounds good for those who want a tested, standardized component. Being happy to faff around and use whatever I had to hand, I got a good result using the axle tube and two springy wires, soldered in an A shape, the two wires meeting at the apex of the A, where they were soldered to a frame spacer. The axle tube, across the A, then had down-force applied at both ends, and the shape of the A-frame provided the radial movement of the axle.

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, zr2498 said:

City of York (completely unweathered!)

Thanks Dave,

 

I assume the loco is brand new, just after the Grouping? 

 

What I find interesting about the A2s' first LNER painting is the inset cabside lining, in the form of a panel (unique to this class, or was it a feature of ex-NER locos in LNER green to start with?). Later, the lining went just around the edges, as with the A1s and A3s, etc....................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

28 minutes ago, gr.king said:

That's good news. I tried a single springy wire and axle-tube for a pony truck a couple of times, but I couldn't get enough consistent down-force combined with only gentle centering action. It was alarmingly easy to upset the adjustment of the single wire. The wheel on the inside rail tended to lift on curves, which was no good when facing point blades or crossings were encountered as there was no guidance from the flange back of the inside wheel. Jol Wilkinson's suggestion sounds good for those who want a tested, standardized component. Being happy to faff around and use whatever I had to hand, I got a good result using the axle tube and two springy wires, soldered in an A shape, the two wires meeting at the apex of the A, where they were soldered to a frame spacer. The axle tube, across the A, then had down-force applied at both ends, and the shape of the A-frame provided the radial movement of the axle.

Thanks Graeme,

 

I've tried the system on several occasions - on 4-4-2s (tender and tank) and on a couple of 2-4-2Ts. It works. The 'trick' is to not have the wire too long; just enough to give the right amount of radial movement and springing. I admit, rather unscientific and a bit of trial and error. Your idea is much more sophisticated, though doesn't a triangle have no flexibility? Does the top of the 'A' have a short tail?

 

It's entirely dependent on the radii being negotiated, of course. Mine works on a minimum of 3', though whether it would on tighter radii I don't know. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[gr.king]

No tail to the top of the sprung-pony-truck A-frame, but there seems to be enough flexibility in 0.45 NS wire to allow the arrangement to work. I think a tail would risk re-introducing the tendency for the axle to tilt when negotiating a curve. Having both wires soldered to a frame spacer allows me to bend each one to the necessary extent to get the same down-force on both ends of the axle. Like most things of course, I freely admit that it is an imperfect compromise.

 

I think the inset panel on green ex-NE locos in the first version of LNER livery was typical, copying that aspect of former NER livery as the NE region continued to demonstrate its autonomy. I imagine it was reluctantly admitted that it had to go when the requirement to put full size numbers on the cab sides was introduced.

Edited December 2, 2021 by gr.king
Additional info

[Tony Wright]

More progress for the moment on the A2..................

 

 

There was a considerable amount of flash present on the main footplate casting. I've already cleaned up the back end. I know a large casting like this needs cross-feeds, but shifting this amount of flash takes care and time. I wonder whether this aspect of white metal kits (even the better ones from the likes of DJH) puts potential builders off. Too much vigour in shifting it and you've damaged a casting!

 

 

After cleaning up and soldering on the front bit and the saddle, the main footplate sits very well on the frames.

 

There are a few blow-holes in the valance to subsequently fill. 

 

 

One thing I found irritating was the fact that the boiler had almost no 'witness marks' for the handrail knobs. One or two (no more) were actually tiny holes, but the rest were just 'blind'. I plotted the positions (scaling up the drawing on the box lid) using a rule, spring dividers and a scriber; drilling the holes once done. A piece of appropriate-diameter wooden dowel was used as a support, with the boiler taped tightly to it with insulation tape (just moved along as necessary). Without this, all that would happen is bruising (and ruining) of the half-etched brass boiler. Might this be another reason to dissuade potential kit-builders when confronted by this? 

 

By the way, I've not broken a fine bit now for over six months. The ones I now use are available from Hobby Holidays, and they have a nice fat shank to fit in the pin vice or mini drill. I've lost count of the fine bits which have just snapped off where the shank is the same diameter as the drill bit. Not any more!

 

 

Considering that the boiler is just sitting on the footplate/frames by gravity, it's not too bad a fit already. 

 

None of the holes for the handrail pillars was present on this side to start with. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now, just sitting in front of its tender (a SE Finecast product). The latter, apart from the body needing narrowing a bit, is appropriate. 

 

That's it for now. I'm off tomorrow for the weekend course on loco-building in Leamington, at which I'm the tutor, so I need to get everything ready. Is anyone on here attending it?  

 

 

[zr2498]

6 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

More progress for the moment on the A2..................

 

 

There was a considerable amount of flash present on the main footplate casting. I've already cleaned up the back end. I know a large casting like this needs cross-feeds, but shifting this amount of flash takes care and time. I wonder whether this aspect of white metal kits (even the better ones from the likes of DJH) puts potential builders off. Too much vigour in shifting it and you've damaged a casting!

 

 

After cleaning up and soldering on the front bit and the saddle, the main footplate sits very well on the frames.

 

There are a few blow-holes in the valance to subsequently fill. 

 

 

One thing I found irritating was the fact that the boiler had almost no 'witness marks' for the handrail knobs. One or two (no more) were actually tiny holes, but the rest were just 'blind'. I plotted the positions (scaling up the drawing on the box lid) using a rule, spring dividers and a scriber; drilling the holes once done. A piece of appropriate-diameter wooden dowel was used as a support, with the boiler taped tightly to it with insulation tape (just moved along as necessary). Without this, all that would happen is bruising (and ruining) of the half-etched brass boiler. Might this be another reason to dissuade potential kit-builders when confronted by this? 

 

By the way, I've not broken a fine bit now for over six months. The ones I now use are available from Hobby Holidays, and they have a nice fat shank to fit in the pin vice or mini drill. I've lost count of the fine bits which have just snapped off where the shank is the same diameter as the drill bit. Not any more!

 

 

Considering that the boiler is just sitting on the footplate/frames by gravity, it's not too bad a fit already. 

 

None of the holes for the handrail pillars was present on this side to start with. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now, just sitting in front of its tender (a SE Finecast product). The latter, apart from the body needing narrowing a bit, is appropriate. 

 

That's it for now. I'm off tomorrow for the weekend course on loco-building in Leamington, at which I'm the tutor, so I need to get everything ready. Is anyone on here attending it?  

 

 

I reckon another BRM article is in the making!

[micklner]

From memory

 

The A2 cab in general, and especially the very poor Whitemetal Cast Roof Casting to the etched Cabside fit were very poor. 

 

Has the DJH Tender gone AWOL ? either way both versions weigh a ton . One day, I will source a superdetail Hornby version for my A2.

 

The Reversing lever and other parts in the footplate area  were again very poor, and I made mine as in the earlier photo I posted of my A2 earlier  from scratch , as the parts supplied beared no resemblance at all to what was actually fitted to the Loco.

 

Does anyone know how many of these A2 Locos were produced by DJH ?

The box of mine state No2 of 100 , I have also seen mention of 175 being made. Or were there a seperate number series for each version ?.

The versions appear to be A2 with NER 6wheel Tender , A2 with LNER 8 wheel Tender and my version  A2 with Cartazzi Truck and LNER 8 wheel Tender. Did they make the A2 with LNER Cab , Cartazzi Truck , A1 Boiler and LNER 8 wheel tender ??

 

Mick

[Blandford1969]

Its really interesting watching a build like this and that the footplate appears to be in two pieces. You manage to build at such a pace and quality, whereas my mojo struggles to just do a tiny bit of modelling. Its a shame no one has ever done the last incarnation with A1 boiler. Would it be as simple as putting an A1 boiler and original A1  cab on or was the cab different?

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

More progress for the moment on the A2..................

 

 

 

 

By the way, I've not broken a fine bit now for over six months. The ones I now use are available from Hobby Holidays, and they have a nice fat shank to fit in the pin vice or mini drill. I've lost count of the fine bits which have just snapped off where the shank is the same diameter as the drill bit. Not any more!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good to know, thanks Tony. 

[jwealleans]

33 minutes ago, micklner said:

Did they make the A2 with LNER Cab , Cartazzi Truck , A1 Boiler and LNER 8 wheel tender ??

 

I thought they did, but I have never seen one, built or otherwise.  I think your 175 is right - fairly sure the unbuilt one I have says 'nnn of 175'.

 

Morgan Gilbert did a build on the LNER forum over 10 years ago where he replaced many of the less than satisfactory parts.  I recall him making a new cab roof and altering the curvature of the cab front to a more realistic shape.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by jwealleans

[30368]

On 01/12/2021 at 11:12, Tony Wright said:

Progress on the DJH Raven A2..............

 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

Bit nippy here but otherwise fine.

 

I am really looking forward to this build, what an interesting prototype? From what I have seen these are very rare kits indeed.

 

With all due respect to the great NER locomotive engineers and to a very successful railway company, I always thought that these locomotives were a very rushed response to the GN pacifics and in some ways, a bit like The Great Bear, but a bit better! How are you going to complete it Tony? I assume with original boiler? If you have already discussed this please accept my apologies. I would love to build one.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

PS Read on Richard!!!

Edited December 2, 2021 by 30368

[micklner]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

 

I thought they did, but I have never seen one, built or otherwise.  I think your 175 is right - fairly sure the unbuilt one I have says 'nnn of 175'.

 

Morgan Gilbert did a build on the LNER forum over 10 years ago where he replaced many of the less than satisfactory parts.  I recall him making a new cab roof and altering the curvature of the cab front to a more realistic shape.

 

Thanks JW,

Morgan has'nt been around for a while , any ideas ?

 

I had forgot about the A2 build , see here for anyone interested

 

www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=968&hilit=djh+a2

 

Lots of useful comments re the build quality and problems with the overall build  and some excellent photos on the links.

 

Mick

Edited December 2, 2021 by micklner

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, zr2498 said:

I reckon another BRM article is in the making!

Sounds like a reasonable idea, Dave,

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

From memory

 

The A2 cab in general, and especially the very poor Whitemetal Cast Roof Casting to the etched Cabside fit were very poor. 

 

Has the DJH Tender gone AWOL ? either way both versions weigh a ton . One day, I will source a superdetail Hornby version for my A2.

 

The Reversing lever and other parts in the footplate area  were again very poor, and I made mine as in the earlier photo I posted of my A2 earlier  from scratch , as the parts supplied beared no resemblance at all to what was actually fitted to the Loco.

 

Does anyone know how many of these A2 Locos were produced by DJH ?

The box of mine state No2 of 100 , I have also seen mention of 175 being made. Or were there a seperate number series for each version ?.

The versions appear to be A2 with NER 6wheel Tender , A2 with LNER 8 wheel Tender and my version  A2 with Cartazzi Truck and LNER 8 wheel Tender. Did they make the A2 with LNER Cab , Cartazzi Truck , A1 Boiler and LNER 8 wheel tender ??

 

Mick

Good evening Mick,

 

So far, apart from the flash on the main footplate castings, the fit of parts has been fine. I can't recall any major problems with the one I built a quarter of a century ago, but we'll see.....

 

I'll use the DJH NER tender to go behind a J39 I've got to build. 

 

I rather like heavy tenders. Why? Well, they ride really well and do not bounce or deviate if the loco they're attached to has a heavy train. When I tested Hornby's (Hornby Dublo) latest metal-bodied CITY OF LEICESTER, the limit of what it could haul was not the loco itself but its lightweight plastic tender. After 27 carriages, it toppled over! Granted, such a train length is unusual, but my kit-built Pacifics (with their hefty tenders) have no problems. If a loco's ability to take a heavy train is compromised by its tender being too heavy, then, may I suggest, a more powerful loco be made? In the case of the A2 I'm making, with the motor in the firebox, the whole boiler can be filled with lead. I'll warrant then it'll pull anything, no matter how heavy its tender might be. 

 

If I'm not happy with the the rest of the parts, I'll make/modify whatever is necessary. 

 

I would think my kit is one of the first batch; No. 151 out of 175. Whether separate number series were made for the other options, I have no idea. If DJH did the Gresley-boilered version, I've never seen one.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Blandford1969 said:

Its really interesting watching a build like this and that the footplate appears to be in two pieces. You manage to build at such a pace and quality, whereas my mojo struggles to just do a tiny bit of modelling. Its a shame no one has ever done the last incarnation with A1 boiler. Would it be as simple as putting an A1 boiler and original A1  cab on or was the cab different?

Your comments are very kind. Thank you.

 

In my days as a professional loco-builder, if I were not able to build such a loco as the A2 in between 30 and 35 hours, I wouldn't have made much money. 

 

It might be possible to use the DJH A1 boiler and cab to make the A2 thus fitted, though the frames/footplate at the back would need shortening. The smokebox would also have to be lengthened. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

55 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

Good evening Tony,

 

Bit nippy here but otherwise fine.

 

I am really looking forward to this build, what an interesting prototype? From what I have seen these are very rare kits indeed.

 

With all due respect to the great NER locomotive engineers and to a very successful railway company, I always thought that these locomotives were a very rushed response to the GN pacifics and in some ways, a bit like The Great Bear, but a bit better! How are you going to complete it Tony? I assume with original boiler? If you have already discussed this please accept my apologies. I would love to build one.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

PS Read on Richard!!!

Good evening Richard,

 

I think they are rare kits (if Ebay prices are anything to go by).

 

The Raven A2s were no more than an extended Z. Whereas the Atlantics were excellent, the Pacifics were mediocre. In fairness, when compared with an original Gresley A1, there was little to choose between them. The difference was that the A2 was at the end of a development (a dead end), whereas the A1 was at its Genesis; going on to become the A3s, and by geaneology, the A4s. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

51 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Richard,

 

I think they are rare kits (if Ebay prices are anything to go by).

 

The Raven A2s were no more than an extended Z. Whereas the Atlantics were excellent, the Pacifics were mediocre. In fairness, when compared with an original Gresley A1, there was little to choose between them. The difference was that the A2 was at the end of a development (a dead end), whereas the A1 was at its Genesis; going on to become the A3s, and by geaneology, the A4s. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Perhaps not helped by the new CME of LNER being ex GNR Nigel Gresley. Realistically the A2 would have had to been miles better, for any real development to have ever happended and been approved by the LNER Board .

The A2 was rushed out by the NER as the Grouping/LNER was about to become into existence. It was the easiest/quickest solution for the NER to join the Pacific ranks at the time, by simply stretching the class Z/C7.  Perhaps if Vincent Raven had more time, something totally different may have been built ?,  sadly no one, will ever know !!.

 

All a very long time ago, a hundred years ago next year . Thanks to Mr Raven for adding even more variety to the ECML.

 

Only the A2 and the A2/1 left for the LNER pacific r.t.r market , who knows in the future Mr Hornby  !!

Edited December 2, 2021 by micklner

[2750Papyrus]

52 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

by geaneology, the A4s. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

the study of sweet cherries?

[Jesse Sim]

9 minutes ago, micklner said:

 

 

Only the A2 and the A2/1 left for the LNER pacific r.t.r market , who knows in the future Mr Hornby  !!

I hope Hornby don’t make one! 
 

My A2, although I didn’t build it, turns a few heads on when seen on my layout. It would have been the same for my Graeme King rebuilt W1, but now that Hornby have brought them out all I’ll hear is “oh is that Hornby’s W1”. 
 

Before Hornby brought out the W1, you hardly seen one on an LNER layout (just like the real thing) as no one wanted to or couldn’t build one, now every man and his dog will have one. 
 

I think I’ve been hanging around Tony too long! 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Jesse Sim

[zr2498]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Richard,

 

I think they are rare kits (if Ebay prices are anything to go by).

 

The Raven A2s were no more than an extended Z. Whereas the Atlantics were excellent, the Pacifics were mediocre. In fairness, when compared with an original Gresley A1, there was little to choose between them. The difference was that the A2 was at the end of a development (a dead end), whereas the A1 was at its Genesis; going on to become the A3s, and by geaneology, the A4s. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Perhaps DJH would resurrect the kit if enough interest was shown. Perhaps they should set up an 'expression of interest' in the same way that some RTR manufacturers do.

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

Tony wrote,

 

"There was a considerable amount of flash present on the main footplate casting. I've already cleaned up the back end. I know a large casting like this needs cross-feeds, but shifting this amount of flash takes care and time. I wonder whether this aspect of white metal kits (even the better ones from the likes of DJH) puts potential builders off. Too much vigour in shifting it and you've damaged a casting!"

 

That was just one of the reasons I gave up with cast white metal kits of LNWR models over thirty years ago. GEM were the worst at the time, although M&L were rather better and their LNWR 5' 6" 2-4-2T and LNWR 0-6-0 Coal Engine are the only w/m models I was fairly happy with and still have (wagons excepted). The worst things were the K's LNWR six wheel carriages, with round ended axles running in holes in the w/m axle boxes. But they were of their time and we have become used to much better kits nowadays, with etched, lost wax brass and resin cast components.. 

[Denbridge]

1 minute ago, zr2498 said:

Perhaps DJH would resurrect the kit if enough interest was shown. Perhaps they should set up an 'expression of interest' in the same way that some RTR manufacturers do.

DJH seem to have zero interest in 4mm these days. I suspect they are merely selling off existing stocks. There certainly have been no new kits released for several years now.

[Tony Wright]

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

Perhaps not helped by the new CME of LNER being ex GNR Nigel Gresley. Realistically the A2 would have had to been miles better, for any real development to have ever happended and been approved by the LNER Board .

The A2 was rushed out by the NER as the Grouping/LNER was about to become into existence. It was the easiest/quickest solution for the NER to join the Pacific ranks at the time, by simply stretching the class Z/C7.  Perhaps if Vincent Raven had more time, something totally different may have been built ?,  sadly no one, will ever know !!.

 

All a very long time ago, a hundred years ago next year . Thanks to Mr Raven for adding even more variety to the ECML.

 

Only the A2 and the A2/1 left for the LNER pacific r.t.r market , who knows in the future Mr Hornby  !!

Thanks Mick,

 

Just to clarify - 'Only the A2 and the A2/1 left for the LNER pacific r.t.r market' - I assume you mean the Raven A2 and A2/1? The A2/1 was the single example fitted with a Gresley boiler and cab.

 

There is the Thompson A2/1, of course; and the singular (and much-maligned) A1/1 rebuild of Gresley's pioneer Pacific.

 

I've long ago ceased guessing as to what the RTR boys might be considering next. I'm flattered, of course, to be asked for assistance (imagine my incredulity when two RTR manufactures simultaneously asked me to help with an A2/2 and A2/3!). This usually takes the form of their borrowing a loco or two I've built (the forthcoming RTR A5 was a case in point) which helps them get a 'feel' for what the finished thing might look/feel like. The caveat is, as always, that they should not use what I've built as a basis for designing their models. At the moment, at least two of my locos are being 'studied' by manufacturers. Non-disclosure insists I cannot reveal what they are. If I were to I'd, quite properly, be dropped like a stone. I also assist by attending meetings and loaning drawings/books/ diagrams and photographs. 

 

The same is so for carriages of LNER/ER origin.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

56 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

I hope Hornby don’t make one! 
 

My A2, although I didn’t build it, turns a few heads on when seen on my layout. It would have been the same for my Graeme King rebuilt W1, but now that Hornby have brought them out all I’ll hear is “oh is that Hornby’s W1”. 
 

Before Hornby brought out the W1, you hardly seen one on an LNER layout (just like the real thing) as no one wanted to or couldn’t build one, now every man and his dog will have one. 
 

I think I’ve been hanging around Tony too long! 

 

 

 

I'm passing on all of my bad traits (and there are many!). 

 

 

As you know, your Raven A2 once belonged to the late John Brown of the Spalding Club. Who built it, isn't known, but the pro' paint job has the look of Larry Goddard's work. 

 

Yes, the W1. You bet, once Hornby's goes on sale, look out for how many will suddenly appear on layouts. 

 

I built mine (from a South Eastern Finecast kit, which Ian Rathbone painted) during the last year of the last century; long before a decent A4 donor or an RTR example were ever thought of. 

 

 

A decent enough (and immensely-powerful) layout loco?

 

 

And guesting on Biggleswade.

 

Little Bytham has hosted at least two more (rebuilt) W1s.

 

 

Tom Rance's.

 

 

And David West's.

 

Both these are Hornby A4/Graeme King cast resin parts adaptations.

 

And, Graeme King's own Hornby conversion, running (in EM form) on Retford.

 

 

The above three are superior in most respects (other than in their haulage capacity, motion and painting) to my SEF kit-built one (that's not to say their painting/weathering is poor - in fact, it's excellent).

 

Regards,

 

Tony.