Wright writes.....

[micklner]

I agree re lamps however not that easy on occasions to use them in 4mm and smaller. All the current detailed Hornby Locos have flimsy plastic lamp irons , I have never tried to use them to hold lamps but i would imagine they would last a few seconds before breaking. Many people dont want to drill holes in their expensive Locos and add staples or whatever as a alternative. Hence no lamps on display.

 

Re Haymarket perhaps the owner use the Locos on other layouts where tension lock couplings are used ?

I have tried many types ,but how many will neither go round bends in forward or reverse without derailing the train? not many that I have tried , as a result I gave up and went back to to tension locks for coaches and use 3 links on wagons. However the 3 link will not go around curves in reverse unless very large raduis. How many modellers have that luxury sadly I dont .

 

What we do need and is ignored is Smoke without it all Steam and Diesel Locos are toys whether super detailed or the most basic. Until a decent system is invented and marketed there is a huge lack of realism in all working layouts.

[Guest Tom F]

I drill a small hole inside the springside lamp with my hand drill (something I picked up from Mr Wright). Pop it over the RTR lamp iron and it sits happily on there.

[great northern]

I drill a small hole inside the springside lamp with my hand drill (something I picked up from Mr Wright). Pop it over the RTR lamp iron and it sits happily on there.

Yes I do that too Tom, but sometimes I drill a small hole in my finger instead, and when I do get it right and go to put it on a lamp iron there is a good chance that it will ping off into oblivion, and never be seen again. Having said that, I have come round to Tony's view on this subject. Knowing that no train would ever have got past the first signal box without correct lamps makes it something so basic that I really don't feel that it can be ignored, however fiddly it may be, and is.

[Guest Tom F]

Yes I do that too Tom, but sometimes I drill a small hole in my finger instead

 

Just done that now Gilbert while working on my O4. 

It's getting the drill bit to initially bite into the white metal centre (is it white metal?) I find the awkward bit. After that I'm away but it is a little tedious. 

 

I'm lucky as my lot will all have light engine lamp arrangement. Not so simple for your self plus a lot of switching around. I agree with you though that it's a vital part of making it/running it more like the real thing.

[Andy Y]

I've been in e-mail correspondence with Ian and have said I was a little OTT with regard my criticisms.

 

I can console myself with the thought that my motives in 'criticising' were made with the best intentions. It's just that I thought we've moved on from tension-lock couplings (especially on the front cover and in a major picture of BRM). I realise they're the industry-standard, but they're hardly 'real' are they? Recently, I looked at the cover of a national model railway magazine where models I'd made were featured for the first time. It was a copy of 'Model Railways' of over 30 years ago and, although I'll admit not everything was 'lamped-up', tension-lock couplings were certainly not present. Either scale couplings were used or simple wire loops were employed, but never on the 'visible' end of locomotives. Surely, we can equal that today. Another fact was that the models were 'made', not RTR, but that was out of necessity at the time. Today, a Super D and a J11 (on the way) need not be kit-built.  As for my criticisms of the lamps on the locos of Ian's layout, well perhaps I was a bit over-zealous! I do accept the problem of moving lamps around, especially on an exhibition layout (where it will slow things up) and the risk of damage to the flimsy irons on RTR locos where put on/take off/alter actions are necessary. I was commenting as one whose locos, in the main, are made of metal and things like lamp brackets don't break off. So, in fairness to Ian, it's best to leave them alone (even though it may not be strictly 100% accurate on shed). However, where you have situations where, in the main, trains on layouts go round and round, then not displaying headlamps on locos is not an option, irrespective of scale/gauge. Gilbert Barnatt's Peterborough North is a grand example where appropriate codes are carried, and it's much the better for it. I know we all have our blind spots, but on the real (steam) railway, any train not displaying the correct headlamp code (especially none) would be stopped by a signalman. 

           

For viewers' interest, I've enclosed some pictures showing shed scenes on East Kilbride's Annan Road in OO. The builders leave their lamps on too because their locos do move on and off shed to take up duties on the main part of the layout. But note, they don't have the dreadful tension-locks. Perhaps I should have reserved my criticisms for those alone. 

 

 

 

 

 

I should add that the Annan Road chaps use Kadees as their standard coupling, but never on the front end of tender locos. I agree, they're not right either (except on A4 corridor tenders), but they're far less obtrusive.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I agree re lamps however not that easy on occasions to use them in 4mm and smaller. All the current detailed Hornby Locos have flimsy plastic lamp irons , I have never tried to use them to hold lamps but i would imagine they would last a few seconds before breaking. Many people dont want to drill holes in their expensive Locos and add staples or whatever as a alternative. Hence no lamps on display.

 

Re Haymarket perhaps the owner use the Locos on other layouts where tension lock couplings are used ?

I have tried many types ,but how many will neither go round bends in forward or reverse without derailing the train? not many that I have tried , as a result I gave up and went back to to tension locks for coaches and use 3 links on wagons. However the 3 link will not go around curves in reverse unless very large raduis. How many modellers have that luxury sadly I dont .

 

What we do need and is ignored is Smoke without it all Steam and Diesel Locos are toys whether super detailed or the most basic. Until a decent system is invented and marketed there is a huge lack of realism in all working layouts.

 

Hi,

 

A newbie to this Thread - just working my way through it - great stuff!

 

When I modelled 4mm scale I would use pins/wire pin/spigots - or exsting spigots found on Springside lamps - and drill holes for the common lamp patterns and/or cut off plastic Lamp Irons and replace with offcuts of brass strip.....I have recently done so on a 4mm exGWR 2-6-2 that I fettled for a friend for Chrimbo. So eg for a loco which is always going to be an 'express passenger' loco then the loco can be drilled and the lamps added perminately, for other applications (mixed traffice locos) then as others have mentioned a hole can be drilled in the base of the lamp and then popped on the Lamp Iron (plastic or brass).

 

With regard to smoke/steam etc. sadly it seems that smoke cant easliy/effectively be 'scaled'. The start up sequence on some of the 7mm diesels - fitted with smoke generators - is pretty good, yet most aspects of such 'detailing' doesnt work well due to scale considerations when compared to the real world.

 

Perhaps such could be linked, with DCC, to a timing device, which would help go some way towards giving a more realistic 'beat' to the exhaust/smoke, although similar effects can make a mess of a model's interior...

 

ATB

 

CME

Edited January 15, 2013 by CME and Bottlewasher

[coachmann]

I'm most likely not alone in having looked at fitting screw couplings on the front of locos for realism. But locos do the damndest things, like leaving shed the right way round then running tender first with the tension-lock coupling in full public view! Same at sidings; they will insist on drawing up to wagons only to find a screw coupling facing a tension-lock is as useful as a one-legged man at an @rse kicking party. Double heading is another downer. Screws couplings in 7mm  - fine, even for fingers with the sensitivity of thimbles. But in 4mm, nooooo. I've tried 'em!

 

Incidentally, in the second picture my blind spot wasn't working and my eye was drawn to that ultra sharp curve around which the Austerity was drawings its train...

Edited January 15, 2013 by coachmann

[CME and Bottlewasher]

I'm most likely not alone in having looked at fitting screw couplings on the front of locos for realism. But locos do the damndest things, like leaving shed the right way round then running tender first with the tension-lock coupling in full public view! Same at sidings; they will insist on drawing up to wagons only to find a screw coupling facing a tension-lock is as useful as a one-legged man at an @rse kicking party. Double heading is another downer. Screws couplings in 7mm  - fine, even for fingers with the sensitivity of thimbles. But in 4mm, nooooo. I've tried 'em!

 

Incidentally, in the second picture my blind spot wasn't working and my eye was drawn to that ultra sharp curve around which the Austerity was drawings its train...

 

Hi Coachman,

 

I would say - as a modeller of 7mm - that 3 link and/or screwlinks can also be a chore, with eg. a 2ft 6" wide baseboard, so auto-couplings are a consideration for us too.

 

ATB

 

CME

Edited January 15, 2013 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Dunsignalling]

Bachmann have this particular detail right... I would hazard that most of the minerals illustrated are from other sources.

 

Adam

I've just checked ten Bachmann minerals that I could lay my hands on easily and nine of them the stripes are "right".

 

On the other one (a factory weathered example numbered B106979) it goes a bit high but not right into the corners - probably within the limits of prototype variability.

[Andy Y]

A bit of a treat for anyone into their O1s and likely to carry out additional work on their Hornby O1.

Just out of further interest, with my review of Hornby's O1 probably not appearing now until the April issue of BRM, I've included some prototype pictures of the class. These show many and varied manifestations - smokebox doors, couplings, AWS, numberplate fonts, bent footplates/bufferbeams, air pumps, sandbox filler surrounds, buffers etc, etc. The more you look the more you find. One or two also show the locos carrying lamps on shed, including 63594 with Class A lamps! One of them (63670) is modelled by Hornby.  Some show the same loco twice, with different doors.

 

Details of the number, location, date and photographer can be found on mousing over each image.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jwealleans]

As usual, Tony starts a few hares although I can't argue with his common sense. 

 

Lamps  - a bit of blutak in the hole stops them rotating/falling off.  I do find that I have to replace the lamp irons on almost every loco we run including the kit build ones.  For discs (the GE used them) I solder a bit of 1mm tube to the back of the disc then fill that with blutak.  The biggest problem is them getting lost - I have no idea how we can lose so many lamps or discs per show.

 

Smoke - Mick's not wrong.  We did have a kit built B1 on Thurston which had a smoke unit in it.  After three or four shows Graham took it out as he found that unburnt oil was spitting out through the chimney and stripping paint off the boiler.  The smell was a nuisance after a few hours as well.  A better means of doing this would be good.

 

Couplings - I have always been grateful to Tony for putting a rocket up the Ely guys (in the nicest possible way) for having tension lock couplings on the front of their locos.  It's a problem on a club layout where not all members model to the same standard or within the same constraints but for exhibitions I think you need to set minimum standards.  Incidentally, Graham Varley came up with a very neat bent wire bracket which he hung over the buffers  of his screw-link locos to allow them to pull tension lock stock.  Unobtrusive and easily removed.

[ScRSG]

Regarding lamps, I have always felt that those available seemed overscale and therefore looked far too big on the front of locos. Any reccomendations as to any make of lamp that is correctly to scale (4mm)?

[Mallard60022]

63760 is one of the Tyne Dock babies. Great pictures Andy. Any idea where 63650 is?

P

[silverlink]

 I feel I must make comment here as my layout seems to have attracted a few comments about it.

First, I know that Andy York, like myself is mortified that there are pictures of locos with wheels off the track, we along with Richard Wilson who was also at the photo shoot all managed to miss this. Anyone who has had their layout photographed will know how much time and effort is taken up with getting 'that shot' right. Andy and Richard were at my home for over seven hours to do all the photos and I was constantly taking off and putting on new locos for the next shot. I suppose you should blame me for it was I that kept wanting to remove locos that were in the background to replace them with different models.

 

Moving on to loco lamps, whilst most of my stock (in excess of100 locos) does not have lamps fitted there are still quite a few that do and for some time now I have been making my own that do actually work! this entails using a 1.5mm yellow led which I fashion to shape to look like an oil lamp. This has to then be fixed in place with Araldite and wired to the decoder. Of course this does cause a problem when moving around the shed as some locos have express lamps others have goods lamps and some have light engine lamps (the last is correct for coming on/off shed) and they cannot be removed. Whilst not totally accurate they do look good and as yet no visitor that has seen them at a show has commented adversely about them. Fact is we get so many enquiries about the lamps we need one of our team on standby to answer questions about them. I think with all layouts sometimes we all need to use, what's it called? 'modellers licence' or we would not be able to build or run our models.

 

With reference loco couplings (tension lock) I totally agree here all locos whether steam or diesel look so much better without them. Problem I have is we now do quite a lot of coal wagon movement around the layout which needs couplings to be able to do it. Most of this is done with diesel locos (class 26, 27, 24, 15 & 08) so these have actually had couplings put back on!.

Regarding the dozens of steam locos and Deltics, I am at present removing all tension lock couplings as the amount of times they run on a layout with stock is minimal they are not required. I will be examining ways of fixing some kind of unobtrusive coupling to the diesels.

 

 By allowing my layout to be featured in the magazines I suppose I have put my head above the parapets so therefore I should be ready for it to be shot at.

I thank all of those who have posted comments I am pleased you like Haymarket Cross, it was just an idea I had but then decided to build and since attending shows with it our team of operators have met some wonderful fellow modellers, its been a great experience. As one of our younger team members said 'never ever thought I'd have so much fun with a load of old age pensioners' cheeky sod!!!

Ian H

'Haymarket Cross'    

 

[Oldddudders]

The trainspotter in me notices that 63746 appears in three different photos - in three different conditions, including almost ex-works. Looks lovely and smart like that, IMHO.

[Andy Y]

 

Firstly, I'd like to thank Ian Harper (60014) for his comments with regard to my observations on Haymarket Cross. I admit to being a little over-zealous with regard to the loco lamps, and if they do prove to be of great interest at shows then that's reason enough to carry on with them. I'm glad he's looking at replacing the tension-locks, though. His comments about 'head above the parapet' strikes a personal chord indeed. I've lost count of the number of articles I've had published in the model press down the years, and the number of 'poison pen' letters in response (no internet in the earlier days). One bloke from Peterborough reckoned I was in league with the Devil, and clearly the 'hand of Beelzebub' was present in my comments on this or other model! One Scotsman thought so little of me that when I provisionally arranged to meet him at the Glasgow show (after a most vituperative piece of correspondence on his part) he didn't show up (even though I'd sent him a ticket). Or, if he did show up he didn't make himself known. Another Scot, after I'd written a piece about Waverley's Pacifics for Irwell Press, thought his idea of Hades would be to have to sit in a compartment with me for all eternity as I rambled on about the minutiae of detail differences amongst the pictured locomotives. By the time he'd finished writing his letter, the Biro was coming through the paper. One manufacturer threatened to sue me, not for comments I had made but for comments I hadn't made - I didn't mention his kit in a critique of another manufacturer's kit for the same prototype. A publisher blamed me (in part) for having to pulp a thousand and more printed covers after he's used a picture of mine for which he didn't have first use. Sometimes, you can't win, even though you (generic use here) know you're right. A bloke at one Wigan show reckoned the sand-drag on Stoke Summit should have been signalled to enter it. When I pointed out that would mean signalling an illegal move, he loudly proclaimed he was a signalman and that he knew what he was talking about! Another 'signalman', present at one Wells show proclaimed in the loudest voice that the Up distant on Stoke Summit was far too near the tunnel mouth for accuracy. Despite my production of prototype pictures, and my assurance that it was, in fact, the inner distant (the outer distant being a colour light north of the tunnel) he refused to believe me, muttering, darkly, that things like that wouldn't have happened on the 'Southern'. I mention the above to illustrate to Ian not to take too much notice of the critics. And, I'm sure, many other viewers will have legions of tales to tell on correspondence or meeting vociferous punters at exhibitions. This could run and run....

             

Secondly, I'm glad the pictures of the O1s have proved interesting. The various manifestations of 63746 have been noted. The ex-works shot at Doncaster shows it with red-painted buffer stocks (even though it's a B&W print), which was Doncaster's practice. Note the position of the electric warning flashes on the smokebox and the bulbous smokebox door. A slightly earlier view shows it with a NE-style 'flat' door, and the flashes on the footplate, though one cannot tell what colour the stocks are. However, observe the shot of 63806 and this shows a Gorton-shopped O1, for the Manchester works painted them so. Note also the battered appearance of 63650 (at Staveley GC shed, by the way), even though it's recently had a new smokebox and new (bulbous) door. Battered enough to have a broken front numberplate, though. And who painted the 'arrow of indecision' on the cylinders, getting it the wrong way round in the process - the maritime version? I wonder how many folk will incorporate all these wonderful differences in their latest Hornby O1s. 

[Andy Y]

And, I'm sure, many other viewers will have legions of tales to tell on correspondence or meeting vociferous punters at exhibitions. This could run and run....

Would it be pedantic of me to reply to the angry letter submitted to the office over my capital offence of photographing stock off the rails advising that there's only one 'N' in unacceptable? I could sense the keys being hammered somewhat harder than is good for them on that particular epistle.

[Guest Tom F]

Another interesting insight Tony. It would seem the NE type door was the more common on O1s. Although as your photos show the large B1 door was applied to some members. Was the B1 door addition something that was done in their later life. I intend to add a NE door to mine to depict 63755 of Dairycoates in 1950 (lovely photo in Yeadon 24B of her.)

Edited January 16, 2013 by Tom F

[beast66606]

According to some commentators "One bloke from Peterborough reckoned I was in league with the Devil etc," is a term of endearment compared to their opinion of me.

[BrushVeteran]

I feel that one of the huge benefits of a thread like this we are able to gain all this 'free' advice, which although may be portrayed as constructive criticism, is actually a properly researched and blow by blow account on how an experienced and competant modeller has the ability, through the use of forthright and explanitory english, to help those who might feel a little inadequate to comtemplate detailing models to the standard we are now seeing in these excellent images. Nobody wants to spoil a good model and the present RTR offerings are too expensive to even think about spoiling but Tony certainly makes for a relaxing attitude for attempting a 'makeover' and giving your model its individuality because as is often said 'no two engines were the same'!

 

As a modeller myself, who requires that little more realism and individuality I often feel 'inadequate' about my own ability to attempt a project or even ask for the advice. We all think we know what we are doing at times and end up learning the 'hard' way which can lead to frustration and temporary abandonment. I think we have a lot to be grateful for here as we are receiving some of the best intended advice based on experience which, in my opinion is a pleasure to read and listen to. Nobody likes criticism, whether constructive or not, nor do we like being told what we have to do, or the correct way to do it, but given the reasons behind the statements made at the time then we can all have a better understanding regarding the working parts, construction and indeed history of the project in hand.

 

I don't think I could have asked for a better 'tutor' when I approached Tony for some 'input' into the proposed Heljan O2 'Tango' and I am more confident that we will all see a good result from the advice, experience, and not forgetting the enthusiasm, so willingly given. Even my English should improve as a result!!

 

So thank you Tony, for your continued humor when attempting to be serious and of course to Andy Y for giving the platform for this thread. To encourage and enlighten us all to carry on with our modelling enjoyably, the way it should be done!

[Mallard60022]

Oh to have the thickness of skin so obviously owned by Tony. I have this picture in my tiny brain cell of TW receiving one of these 'fan letters' in the BRM Office and the resulting howls of laughter.

P @ 36E

[silverlink]

With reference lamps on locos whilst on shed, I'm now even more confused! I have just had a quick look at a couple of books with A4 & A3 locos shown. On careful examination I find quite a wide range of lamps been shown while 'on shed'  yes there are locos shown minus any lamps but I find many with just one on display on either front left or right lamp irons. I have found two or three with one on the top lamp iron but am very suprised to find around half a dozen with express lamps fitted. I will continue to go through my books and check out what the A1 and A2's are showing as well as any other stock I find on shed. I now feel slightly better that my locos are not necessarily wrong with the lamps they are fitted with.

Ian H

[Guest Tom F]

With reference lamps on locos whilst on shed, I'm now even more confused! I have just had a quick look at a couple of books with A4 & A3 locos shown. On careful examination I find quite a wide range of lamps been shown while 'on shed'  yes there are locos shown minus any lamps but I find many with just one on display on either front left or right lamp irons. I have found two or three with one on the top lamp iron but am very suprised to find around half a dozen with express lamps fitted. I will continue to go through my books and check out what the A1 and A2's are showing as well as any other stock I find on shed. I now feel slightly better that my locos are not necessarily wrong with the lamps they are fitted with.

Ian H

 

Hello Ian

 

That is very interesting, keep us posted on what you find as this will be useful for Leaman Road as well. 

 

Cheers

[coachmann]

Locos invariably go on shed light engine. Yes I know it sounds obvious as well as daft. A single lamp could be the rear lamp and not necessarily the leading lamp.

[silverlink]

Locos invariably go on shed light engine. Yes I know it sounds obvious as well as daft. A single lamp could be the rear lamp and not necessarily the leading lamp.

True, but I have looked carefully at the lamps and in most cases they do look to be clear lens showing with the odd one looking darker which of course could be red. I'm sure someone will be able to tell us procedure with lamps when coming on shed. I think locos would have two lamps available one of which would go on rear depending on direction and would have a red lens flipped over the normal white light, on coupling up to train the rear lamp would then be placed on front lamp iron and the red lens removed. I think this is why there are lots of locos with the light engine one lamp on the outside lamp irons and not on the correct middle one.

Ian H