Mr Craven's engines - LBSCR 1870s

[burgundy]

18 and 21
When William Stroudley took over at Brighton, he found the bits for Mr Craven’s two latest tank engines under construction in the works. The drawings show a pair of outside framed saddle tanks. Work was stopped while the new team reviewed the loco stock and the facilities and decided priorities. With Robert Billinton as Chief Draughtsman and Dougal Drummond as Works Manager, they must have made a formidable team and they quickly set about rebuilding the loco works at Brighton, improving the best of the existing loco stock (many lasted another 20 years so they cannot have been that bad) and then developing the new standard classes, introducing working practices at Brighton, that actually produced genuinely standard parts.
The bits on the floor at the back of the works came in for attention in due course and appeared as a pair of inside framed, side tanks, numbered 18 and 21. They therefore represent one of the critical moments in the transition from Craven to Stroudley, with some likeness to a Stroudley D tank, but many features directly derived from Craven practice. With drawings available to show the original design, a drawing in Burtt’s book that shows the design as built and two photos, the available data is better than it might be – but it still leaves some interesting gaps which are discussed in greater detail in L.B.& S.C.R. Modeller’s Digest 8, which is now available.
The kit comes from EBM and follows most of the standard practices of Mike Waldron design. There cannot be many kits for two insignificant tank engines that were built in 1871 and scrapped by 1890!
The chassis uses three point suspension, mounting the driving axles linked by compensating beams, with the trailing axle on a rocking device.
The body leaves quite a reasonable space for a motor/gearbox, with a bit left over for some weight, notwithstanding the open cab, 
The livery is the standard Stroudley passenger Improved Engine Green, but with no name; names were allocated but never applied. The photo shows the basic livery complete, but I should like to apply some light weathering to give it a rather more “lived in” look. This will have to await some decent weather as I do my airbrushing outside.

Note the change in title of the thread, which saves me starting a new thread for each new loco. For completeness, I have another Craven tank engine in my collection, illustrated below. 

The photo above was the work of Andy York and taken at the SWAG exhibition a couple of years ago.
The build of this loco is described in Issue 5 page 27 of the late lamented Modelling Inspiration which is still accessible at http://rmweb.co.uk/MIfiles/MI5a.pdf.
Best wishes
Eric

Edited December 19, 2018 by burgundy

[burgundy]

Modern image

Kensington is one of the Belgravia class of outside framed 2-4-0s that are usually credited to William Stroudley and perhaps a bit "modern image" for this thread. They were some of his earliest products from Brighton Works and two of them, including Kensington, are credited with being rebuilds of the earlier Stephenson singles (see Dieppe earlier in this thread).  There is therefore a slight stretch to include this among “Mr Craven’s engines” – but not a lot!
It is strange how there always seems to be some aspect of a project that gives pause for thought. In this case, Mike Waldron who did the build (of one of his own kits) found some “interesting challenges” in arranging the underhung driving wheel springs in such a way that you could remove the chassis from the body. This is written up in LB&SCR Modellers Digest 8. 
My contribution was to paint the finished model and to interpret from a limited number of photographs how the Stroudley passenger livery was applied to this particular loco and tender. The oddity in this case was that a photo of Kensington seems to show that the tender lining extended not only around the bottom of the frames, but also around the cutouts in the frames.  Helpfully, on the majority of pictures of tenders, the frame lining is invisible!  

Best wishes 
Eric 

[Mike 84C]

Rather nice loco, whose manufacture are the tender springs?  They seem just what I need.

[burgundy]

7 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

Rather nice loco, whose manufacture are the tender springs?  They seem just what I need.

 

Thanks 

The springs are part of the kit and, if I remember correctly, are castings, probably made by 5&9 Models. 

Hope this helps.

Best wishes 

Eric

[Richard Jones]

If it's the same as the Drayton/Dieppe kit, the springs are made up from 3 layers of etch....

these are the ones for the tender.... (and the brake etches)

 

 

[burgundy]

Latest addition to the loco stock is another Craven/Stroudley hybrid. Completion has been accelerated by having to go into purdah for Coronavirus. 

Seaford was originally built in 1859 and seems to have spent its earlier years in London, being the first loco to work the East London line in 1869. When replaced by Terriers, it was rebuilt in 1873 at Brighton works with a new cab and side tanks, although much of the rest of the loco seems to have remained as built. Quite why Stroudley chose to give a 14 year old loco this kind of makeover is one of those mysteries, particularly as there were plenty of newer tank engines which might have been expected to be in service for rather longer. Evidently, there was work for small single driver tank engines in the quieter corners of the system. The end came in 1879 after, at various times, a derailment, blowing the slates off Newhaven shed roof and a series of burst boiler tubes.

The model uses a 3D print, developed by Killian Keane and based on a drawing by the late Colin Binnie. It has a scratch built chassis, with compensation (in the interests of keeping the driving wheels in touch with the track). The arrangement of the brakegear is somewhat original.  

A rather longer description of the project will be included in the Summer edition of LB&SCR Modellers Digest, which should appear towards the end of June.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Chas Levin]

On 24/03/2020 at 18:52, burgundy said:

Latest addition to the loco stock is another Craven/Stroudley hybrid. Completion has been accelerated by having to go into purdah for Coronavirus. 

Seaford was originally built in 1859 and seems to have spent its earlier years in London, being the first loco to work the East London line in 1869. When replaced by Terriers, it was rebuilt in 1873 at Brighton works with a new cab and side tanks, although much of the rest of the loco seems to have remained as built. Quite why Stroudley chose to give a 14 year old loco this kind of makeover is one of those mysteries, particularly as there were plenty of newer tank engines which might have been expected to be in service for rather longer. Evidently, there was work for small single driver tank engines in the quieter corners of the system. The end came in 1879 after, at various times, a derailment, blowing the slates off Newhaven shed roof and a series of burst boiler tubes.

The model uses a 3D print, developed by Killian Keane and based on a drawing by the late Colin Binnie. It has a scratch built chassis, with compensation (in the interests of keeping the driving wheels in touch with the track). The arrangement of the brakegear is somewhat original.  

A rather longer description of the project will be included in the Summer edition of LB&SCR Modellers Digest, which should appear towards the end of June.

Best wishes 

Eric 

 

Very nice (as are the preceding ones!) . I spend a lot of time looking at or working on LNER colours so a dip into different water is very refreshing. I have a Dieppe kit in the pile, though a few things are ahead of it... At least the completion of Seaford being accelerated by the lockdown is another of those good things to come out of it, including - as you say - what does indeed appear to be some interesting brake gear...

[burgundy]

Like many other people, lockdown has provided a sudden increase in time available for modelling (and gardening). The original plan was to try to resolve the outstanding issues on Roswell Mill, but, as the temperature rose and the loft room, where Roswell lives, got rather hotter than Hades, distractions kept getting in the way. Modelling was much more pleasant sitting in the garden under a sunshade and the problems on Roswell Mill were frustrating – so progress on a largely unplanned distraction moved on apace.

The distraction took the form of my first attempt at a completely scratch built loco. No 170 was one of J C Craven’s creations, which entered traffic in December 1863. It was a simple 2-4-0 side tank engine, which had the attraction of having not too many coupled wheels and a straight firebox, rather than the raised variety that most Craven locos feature. I am grateful to Branchlines, to Alan Gibson and to 5&9 models, who promptly supplied the drive train, running gear and cast fittings in the middle of lockdown.

The main components were drawn out to scale, stuck to brass sheet and fretted out the old fashioned way – wrongly in some cases! Once I had created my kit of parts, assembly went much like an etched kit. When I described the completion of Seaford (see above) during one of the Brighton Circle’s Zoom meetings (known as “Virtual Blatchingtons”, derived from our annual meeting at Blatchington Mill), one member suggested that building from scratch might not take much longer. On reflection, he has a point - and I know exactly what compromises I have made and that all the mistakes are my own.

The loco is finished in the Brunswick green that the LB&SCR used before the arrival of Stroudley. In deference to another member of the Circle, I have resisted applying anything but the lightest weathering! Crew, ballast, couplings and numberplates are still outstanding.

No 170 makes a fascinating comparison with another Craven tank engine that I have built: the saddle tank No 166. Both entered traffic in December 1863, but otherwise are about as different as you could get. Craven evidently thought nothing of building a 2-4-0 side tank and a 0-4-2 saddle tank alongside each other in Brighton Works; he preferred to experiment. He also built quite a number of outside framed tank engines and a batch of wing tanks for good measure. It is interesting to speculate what the loco crews made of it. Conditions on the footplate of 170 must have been extremely cramped. The crew had to step over the driving wheel splashers to get onto the footplate, leaving a gap of about 4’ 6” between the wheels. You must then subtract the width of the springs and the reversing lever, leaving a maximum of 4’ working space. In that respect at least, the 0-4-2 saddle tank must have been a much better arrangement, with the springs mounted above the outside frames of the trailing wheels and no splashers to get in the way. No doubt it had its own idiosyncrasies.

A detailed write up of construction will appear in Modellers Digest 12, which should appear shortly before Christmas.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[tepedekiev@aol.com]

Eric,

Beautiful work as usual.

Michael

[ianmaccormac]

Lovely work Eric, I had better get the etched plates sorted then!

Cheers Ian

[burgundy]

Latest addition to the collection of Craven/Stroudley rebuilds is No 400, originally constructed as a saddle tank to operate the Hailsham Flyer - connecting Hailsham with the major traffic hub of Polegate. Gary Kemp's model of the train is documented in LB&SCR Modellers' Digest 12.  

As a somewhat qualified success, Stroudley rebuilt the loco as a well tank and used it as the Brighton Works shunter,  duly painted in the full passenger livery. In later days it migrated to Earlswood and was painted in goods green. 

Javier has provided 3D prints of both versions.

A more comprehensive write up will appear in LB&SCR Modellers' Digest 13 which should be out in late June, so, for the moment, I attach a couple of pictures.

The box on the left hand end is the bunker - about the size of a large domestic coal scuttle.  A well upholstered, whitemetal fireman would make a considerable difference to the overall weight. 

On the other hand, he would emphasise the rather crowded nature of the footplate.  Besides, the crew need to be quite gymnastic to get onto the footplate at all.  The steps either side lead you straight into the bunker and brake standard on the fireman's side and the reversing lever on the driver's side. It looks as though you need to edge round the footplate and duck under the bar at the back. 

 I don't think I have ever seen a water filler hidden just behind the front buffer beam before. 

More to follow in Digest 13. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

Edited May 28, 2021 by burgundy

[burgundy]

As yet another distraction from wiring up Hurstmonceux, this project emerged from the "unmade kit mountain".  Kit is perhaps a slightly generous description of the set of scratch builder aids that Ian White produced some years ago for members of the Brighton Circle, but the etches provide a very good starting point for a loco that is probably not on Rapido or Hornby's "must do" list. The other set of frets was made up into a 0-4-2 saddle tank, which was described in Modelling Inspiration 6. All references to this publication seem to have disappeared completely off the map: I wonder whether it was the best idea to have a title that abbreviated to MI 5 and MI 6? 

The tender is from an e bay rescue of one of @5&9Models kits. 

The lovely curvy footplate was an interesting challenge. 

As a "back burner project", progress may be slow  even slower than usual. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

Edited February 23, 2022 by burgundy

[ianmaccormac]

Hi Eric

I have made a small start on one of these. If you want a set of resin 3d printed parts, just shout and I will move them up the to do list.

Cheers, Ian

[burgundy]

2 hours ago, ianmaccormac said:

Hi Eric

I have made a small start on one of these. If you want a set of resin 3d printed parts, just shout and I will move them up the to do list.

Cheers, Ian

Ian 

Thank you. The offer is much appreciated!

Best wishes 

Eric 

[ianmaccormac]

Hi Eric, I have started one for 7mm so will shoot these down to 4mm if you want them. Back left to front right is chimney; dome with s/v; plain dome; backhead; safety valve cover with two levers; backhead mounted salter springs; Craven loco to guard communicator gong; front springs; driving wheel springs; clack valves; whistle; tender springs. Anything else I can sort if you wish. Cheers, Ian

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by ianmaccormac
reload photo

[burgundy]

Oh dear.

A further "wiring distraction opportunity" arrived, courtesy of Killian Keane a.k.a. Small Loco Works.   

This is straight out of the box, with just a quick blast of rattle can red primer. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[ianmaccormac]

and splashers?

[burgundy]

Ian's post is very timely as the last couple of weeks have seen some progress on this project. I find modelling is very pleasant when sitting  on a south facing balcony! 

The boiler is soldered together with the raised firebox and the smokebox. The outside frames have the springs attached. The driving wheels are pressed onto the extended axles and the tender now has the  handrails attached.    

It is beginning to come together!

Best wishes 

Eric 

[burgundy]

The possible need to replace the velux windows above Hurstmonceux has deterred me from doing too much work on the layout until I understand the scale of the problem and the likely impact (hopefully not literally). In the meantime, this project has been getting my attention. 

With the kind assistance of @ianmaccormac (aka EB Models) and Chris Cox (@5&9Models), I have been able to identify suitable boiler fittings and to move the loco into the paintshop. It is photographed here in a coat of rattle can red primer, which is brutal in showing up blemishes!  At the moment, the dome and safety valve cover are simply plonked in position, as the associated salter balances will have to be fitted after painting.  

Looking back through this thread, it makes little sense following the great photographic melt down, so I may try to provide some catch up photos of locos that have been mentioned previously.

Best wishes 

Eric 

Edited February 27, 2023 by burgundy

[burgundy]

Looking back through this thread, the deletion of almost all the photos in the great RMWeb meltdown has made it rather hard to follow. Curiously, the only pre-melt photos to survive  are those on page 2, which received a large number of reactions; is this a common effect?

Rather than going back to reinsert photos into all the previous posts, my lazy solution is to provide a short summary to illustrate the locos that have featured and this may also provide a more obvious rationale for the locos that have been chosen. I find J C Craven a fascinating loco engineer and the transition period between him and WIlliam Stroudley marks a very visible turning point in loco design. Craven has the reputation of being a rather difficult individual, who built lots of different designs, which tends to be how he is remembered. He also built Brighton Works pretty much from scratch, experimented with many aspects of design in a period when much was still evolving and put up with a Board of Directors/Locomotive Committee which micromanaged his activities and bought locos without telling him! Quite a lot of his locos lasted through the Stroudley period into the 1890s, so they can't have been entirely bad.

The first loco in the thread is Dieppe, a Stephenson built single, constructed from an EBModels kit. 

     It was followed by a Nasmyth Wilson single to much the same specification, built from castings by Chris Cox.

They make an interesting pair. 

Both are in Stroudley's livery and show how they were "tidied up" with enclosed splashers and underhung springs, which allowed them to be named. The position of the Salter balances varied in early Stroudley days, as, initially, he moved them onto the firebox, within reach of the footplate. Following a boiler explosion at Lewes, induced in part by the crew weighting down the valves, they were moved back out of reach onto the dome!

One loco that did not appear in this thread is No 166, a somewhat ungainly 0-4-2 saddle tank, finished in Craven livery, photographed here by Andy York. It was built from the same set of scratch builder etches designed by Ian White  which are the basis for the current project. This one was written up in the late, lamented Modelling Inspiration issue 5. Perhaps it was not a great idea to choose a title that abbreviated to MI5 and MI6 - you never know who might have been reading it. 

 Another 0-4-2 tank, from EBModels, this time a real Craven/Stroudley hybrid. It was one of a pair that were under construction as outside framed saddle tanks when Craven resigned. When Stroudley completed them, they left the works as inside framed side tanks. 

No 170 is my first (and so far only) attempt at building completely from scratch. It is the simplest design that I could find and a product of lockdown. It makes an attractive contrast to the pair of 0-4-2s.

Along the way, I have also had a go at a couple of 3D printed locos that have become available. No 400 was produced by @Javier L . 

Seaford, again a Stroudley rebuild of a Craven loco, was the work of @Killian keane and has a brass compensated chassis. 

The current project, the Craven 2-4-0 tender loco from Ian White's etches, will also appear in Craven green livery  in keeping with the period of Hurstmonceux, which is set in 1870, give or take 5 years. After years of playing with small locos, shuttling backwards and forwards on the Vintners' Yard  cameo layout, it is rather satisfying to watch the trains go by and to tune up some of the larger locos. 

All these projects have also been written up in various issues of LB&SCR Modellers' Digest (see footer). Hopefully, it will be a little while before Hornby, Rapido et al start to encroach on this period! 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[5&9Models]

It's great to see these all together in one place, a very interesting cross section of late Craven and early Stroudley engineering practice all beautifully modelled.

Dare I ask where next?

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, 5&9Models said:

It's great to see these all together in one place, a very interesting cross section of late Craven and early Stroudley engineering practice all beautifully modelled.

Dare I ask where next?

Fully agree with Chris and I think this is such a nice way to deal with the great RMWeb meltdown! Even if you'd gone back and replaced them where they'd previously occurred in the thread, many - including myself - might not have realised they were back, whereas this way, we see them again straight away:

I don't think it's a lazy solution at all! 🙂

[burgundy]

On 28/02/2023 at 13:19, 5&9Models said:

Dare I ask where next?

While I had the airbrush loaded with Brunswick green,  I thought that I would give this one a quick spray. 

 

3D print courtesy of @Killian keane. Brass frames have been fretted out but not yet assembled.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[burgundy]

Still lots to do but the main elements of the livery are now in place (subject to some tidying up). The boiler fittings are still unsecured, as I need to figure out how to attach Salter balances, both on the dome and on the backhead, with the levers running through the weatherboard to the safety valve cover.  A crew has been recruited from ModelU but they will need a cab floor and inside splashers to the rear wheels. Then it is back to the chassis to complete the outside cranks and the pickups. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[Schooner]

She's looking very fine indeed