Any other ways of controlling model trains?

[StuartM]

This is RailPro.

Wireless transmission of command signals and other data between trains and controllers, accessories and other components.

 

This video starts a little dry, but demonstrates modern day communication between control devices and trains and between the trains themselves.

 

Note that this system still uses power via the rails (it can use both DCC and DC), but with battery back-up or stay alive, you could have non-powered metal point and crossing frogs.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGx7lQC2-0Y

What a fantastic system, couple it to the Tam Valley deepo radio control system and you would have the perfect system.

[Ron Ron Ron]

What a fantastic system, couple it to the Tam Valley deepo radio control system and you would have the perfect system.

 

I suspect you mean, combine the technologies?

You couldn't "couple" Railpro to the Tam Valley Depot system as it would duplicate effort; nor would it be necessary.

 

Note also that RailPro is not a DCC system and it already is communicating wirelessly with the various components on the layout (trains, accessory decoders, various modules).

 

 

.

[James]

James.... Bored under your bridge?

 

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't see why...

[Andy Y]

James.... Bored under your bridge?

 

That's unwarranted I'm afraid Kal.

[Ozexpatriate]

No one says its not possible, only that it is not commercially viable, today. you can point to people doing things in this area, but have they found a marketplace big enough for it to be anything other than niche?

 

I don't want to dash anyones dreams, far from it, we spend our life trying to sell new communications to new markets. Not everything our R&D comes up with no matter how innovative has a commercial market.

 

I have no resistance to Change, if the Change is positive. If it adds nothing or simply replaces one problem for another, I feel duty bound to say so.

 

If I am wrong, then it does not matter what I think does it, you do not need to convince me , you need to convince those with the money.

 

There will be a cottage industry, but do not expect the major players to jump on this. Sorry

Radio control is clearly possible. It exists now.

 

Our particular hobby is technologically conservative. For many of us nostalgia is a strong component of the hobby and collectively, we don't like change very much. Slow adoption of DCC is evidence of that. I suspect that *most* of us still use a control approach that has not substantially changed in more than 50 years. (There are people who still run 3-rail systems.) So generally, I agree that a new control method will be slow to catch on.

 

If the cottage industry in RC model trains demonstrates sufficient benefit, people will gradually adopt it - this is evident in Garden railways where keeping track sufficiently electrically conductive is a monstrous task.

 

I don't object to a pramatic assessment here but there are benefits to RC and anyone who can accurately predict the behaviour of the marketplace, would be rich.

 

Personally I believe that there is a potential future in software integration with model railways - enabling virtual cabs*, virtual signal boxes*, automatic train control etc. This remains 'over the horizon'. There are a number of things holding this back:

 

1. Generational - it will be millenials who are more likely to embrace this widely

2. Cost - custom software engineering is expensive and product volumes (compared say, with most mobile phone apps) will be low

3. Legacy control infrastructure - DC or DCC, wiring, switches etc

4. In-block detection approaches - with the legacy control infrastructure, layering some kind of track circuit detection is hard

5. Conventional wisdom - "It's just not done that way"

 

Radio control has benefits to 3 and 4. As people experiment with RC it has the potential to enable a lot more innovation.

 

I don't see widespread commercial use soon, but that's no reason to discourage a conversation about it.

 

* Virtual cab - a mobile application with an interactive graphic of the controls for a locomotive. Moving levers drives the train.

* Virtual signal box - a mobile application with an interactive graphic of a interlocking signal frame. These control modeled signals.

[Clive Mortimore]

Commercially available software, http://www.gamesontrack.co.uk/ lots of fun and very effective. I've actually used it in anger on exhibition with Dagworth, walking around outside the layout with a handheld radio mic connected to the laptop talking to a 31....

 

Andi

 

And SHOUTING when it does not work.......or was that at the operators .....OK then at me.

 

The concept of some sort of remote control with on board power sounds excitting, all I hope the technology arrives before I depart.

[NorthHighlander]

I hope that you will allow me the privilege as a supplier to add my contribution to this thread. I am Tony Hagon, Director of Acc+Ess Limited based in Scotland and we are the developers of the Protocab wireless control system. If I should be making this post in a suppliers' forum, do please tell me.

Our developments in Protocab are well advanced to the point that we are going for beta testing in two months' time. Our plans have delayed by a few weeks as we have been keen to respond to modellers' requests to prove that we can fit batteries in a 4mm tank loco and achieve both satisfactory running time and power output. I have already posted a video of a 7mm Terrier some months ago and referenced (with thanks) in RMWeb and shortly will be putting a similar video of the GWR 14xx tank being operated wire free.

I am grateful to contributors who have referenced our website, but I am sorry if members have had problems accessing our site using an old url referenced in one of the threads in RMWeb. We have now fixed the problem so that reference will work, however, the direct website address is

protocab.com

 

If your website moderator and contributors to this thread are happy for me to answer questions here then I will be delighted to do so. Meanwhile, I hope that a lot of the questions raised in this thread and other threads in RMWeb are answered on our website.

 

Best regards

Tony Hagon

Acc+Ess Ltd

[StuartM]

I hope that you will allow me the privilege as a supplier to add my contribution to this thread. I am Tony Hagon, Director of Acc+Ess Limited based in Scotland and we are the developers of the Protocab wireless control system. If I should be making this post in a suppliers' forum, do please tell me.

Our developments in Protocab are well advanced to the point that we are going for beta testing in two months' time. Our plans have delayed by a few weeks as we have been keen to respond to modellers' requests to prove that we can fit batteries in a 4mm tank loco and achieve both satisfactory running time and power output. I have already posted a video of a 7mm Terrier some months ago and referenced (with thanks) in RMWeb and shortly will be putting a similar video of the GWR 14xx tank being operated wire free.

I am grateful to contributors who have referenced our website, but I am sorry if members have had problems accessing our site using an old url referenced in one of the threads in RMWeb. We have now fixed the problem so that reference will work, however, the direct website address is

protocab.com

 

If your website moderator and contributors to this thread are happy for me to answer questions here then I will be delighted to do so. Meanwhile, I hope that a lot of the questions raised in this thread and other threads in RMWeb are answered on our website.

 

Best regards

Tony Hagon

Acc+Ess Ltd

Fantastic!!!!!

I believe this to be the future for model railways and so I applaud anyone who brings the day where track wiring and cleaning is a thing of the past.

Although a 2mm/ngauge modeller I have book marked your website and will follow developments with interest

I wish you every success I genuinely do.

Rgds,

StuartM

[Oakydoke]

Personally I believe that there is a potential future in software integration with model railways - enabling virtual cabs*, virtual signal boxes*, automatic train control etc. This remains 'over the horizon'.

 

Not so over the horizon.

Virtual cabs are a feature available on the Roco / Fleischmann Z21 DCC system.

 

Loco Cabs

Steam loco footplate.

Video

 

Note the interest of the children in the video?

[NorthHighlander]

Thank you for your comments and good wishes, Stuart. Also in my last post I should have thanked Keith Norgrove for referencing our website in his post. Keith kindly invited us to present to the MERG meeting (www.merg.org.uk) in Keen House, London in November and we appreciated the feedback and suggestions we received from members at the meeting.

 

We will be updating the website as we make further developments and are closer to product availability.

 

Regarding fitting Acc+Ess Protocab into 2mm scale locos, I am old enough to remember when the Lone Star models (approximating to 2mm scale) first appeared in the toy shops and I seem to remember correspondence in the model press at the time saying that they would never be able to put motors in something so small! Our plans are certainly to address the 2mm modeller. We know how to do it, but there are aspects of the technology still to be developed.

 

Our initial developments are aimed at a range of models from small 4mm tank locos to medium sized 7mm locos (motor stall currents from 300mA to 2amps at 12v), followed later in 2013 by extending the range upwards in scale to larger 7mm locos to G scale for the garden railway modellers (up to 10amps). During that time we would like to maintain correspondence with 2mm modellers to understand better their requirements (power, motor types etc.) so that we can develop suitable systems. Please bear in mind that Protocab can handle motors of any voltage.

 

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

 

Director

 

Acc+Ess Ltd

 

www.protocab.com

 

tony@protocab.com

[rodshaw]

Thank you for your comments and good wishes, Stuart. Also in my last post I should have thanked Keith Norgrove for referencing our website in his post. Keith kindly invited us to present to the MERG meeting (www.merg.org.uk) in Keen House, London in November and we appreciated the feedback and suggestions we received from members at the meeting.

 

We will be updating the website as we make further developments and are closer to product availability.

 

Regarding fitting Acc+Ess Protocab into 2mm scale locos, I am old enough to remember when the Lone Star models (approximating to 2mm scale) first appeared in the toy shops and I seem to remember correspondence in the model press at the time saying that they would never be able to put motors in something so small! Our plans are certainly to address the 2mm modeller. We know how to do it, but there are aspects of the technology still to be developed.

 

Our initial developments are aimed at a range of models from small 4mm tank locos to medium sized 7mm locos (motor stall currents from 300mA to 2amps at 12v), followed later in 2013 by extending the range upwards in scale to larger 7mm locos to G scale for the garden railway modellers (up to 10amps). During that time we would like to maintain correspondence with 2mm modellers to understand better their requirements (power, motor types etc.) so that we can develop suitable systems. Please bear in mind that Protocab can handle motors of any voltage.

 

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

 

Director

 

Acc+Ess Ltd

 

www.protocab.com

 

tony@protocab.com

 

Any idea as to costs?

[NorthHighlander]

We're still getting prices sorted out with our suppliers, but we estimate that our Concentrator will be of the order of £175 and to fit a loco with LCU and battery around £100 both including VAT. The software app(lication) for the Android handsets will be free of charge to download. We should be able to firm up on our prices and initial product range by the end of January and we will publish on our website and to our subscribers on our newsletter.

 

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

www.protocab.com

tony@protocab.com

[Ozexpatriate]

Not so over the horizon.

Virtual cabs are a feature available on the Roco / Fleischmann Z21 DCC system.

 

Loco Cabs

Steam loco footplate.

Video

 

Note the interest of the children in the video?

Cool.

 

Yes, I did notice the interest in the children.

 

Next is wireless video streamed from an on-board camera so the tablet has a driver's view of the layout - as it happens, visible thorough the cab windows. This will be less relevant and harder to implement for a steam footplate but would add a huge dimension to modern image layouts.

 

This is one of the future directions of our hobby.

[Dagworth]

Cool.

 

Yes, I did notice the interest in the children.

 

Next is wireless video streamed from an on-board camera so the tablet has a driver's view of the layout - as it happens, visible thorough the cab windows. This will be less relevant and harder to implement for a steam footplate but would add a huge dimension to modern image layouts.

 

This is one of the future directions of our hobby.

 

Again already been done... I had this back in 2005, the RTC livery autocoach being propelled by the class 20 in this clip has a camera in the front transmitting to a TV set with a DCC controller set up in front of it.

 

 

Andi

[Ozexpatriate]

Again already been done... I had this back in 2005, the RTC livery autocoach being propelled by the class 20 in this clip has a camera in the front transmitting to a TV set with a DCC controller set up in front of it.

Andi,

 

I'm with you. lots of people have done all the relevant bits of it. The technology is all there. The key is system integration.

 

I'm talking more about an integrated wireless tablet application. On the tablet you see the live view from the cab and facsimilie interactive controls. Camera/radio/wireless control/tablet controller application all available off the shelf, as opposed to a home-grown systems engineering project. We're pretty close to this being commercial.

[Riggers]

I've just returned to the hobby after a 30 year absence during which time I was playing with R/C model aircraft.  I'm thinking how I can apply aircraft technology to my 30 year old 009 layout.  Keeping the track clean enough to run trains was always a problem  now much worse after all those years in the loft.

So the idea of battery powered r/c models appeals.

It's now possible to get cheap ultra small radio receivers operating on 2.4ghz some with built in speed controllers.  Typically they go up to an amp maybe 2 and run at 3.7V.  Is that enough power to run a typical 009 loco hauling a few coaches on the flat ?   or do I need to go up in voltage? I reckon I could hide a 250mAh battery in a coach no problem and with suitable pluggery could charge off line (always a good idea)  any ideas what sort of duration that would give?

 

Regards

 

Riggers

[Riggers]

I've measured the current my loco draws and its about 250mA which is easily within the capacity of the small Lipo batteies I have in mind.  I also noted that for anything like scale speed it only need 5-7V  so a 2 cell battery would do the job.

 

Micron Rc sell a nice range of  recievers with bi directional speed controllers http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/rx_dt_land.html  and batteries  http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/lipo_hyperion.html

 

I rummaged in by bits box and got a receiver and battery from my aircraft projects and compared them with my 009 loco and it looks like they could be made to fit.  However the all brass body would upset the radio reception

 

 

 

You would need two batteries one in each tank.

 

And as its essential to charge the batteries out of the model then some pluggery would be needed.  But I think its doable even in 009.

So my next loco may well be designed for R/c operation.

 

Riggers

[Ron Ron Ron]

Next is wireless video streamed from an on-board camera so the tablet has a driver's view of the layout - as it happens, visible thorough the cab windows. This will be less relevant and harder to implement for a steam footplate but would add a huge dimension to modern image layouts.

 

This is one of the future directions of our hobby.

 

A feature already provided by the Z21 system.

 

[jimikelly]

I can remember a video on the internet  a few years ago showing  locos powered by batteries with a hand held controller ,and they showed the loco running without track,, and it was oo scale but I cant find it any-more  ..

[fallen]

Here are a couple of videos I posted a month or so ago of a 009 peco tram loco kit on a Kato tram chassis with radio control from DelTang:

 

Here is a video of the loco running round a train on my "developing" layout (really just track so far):

 

 

and here is a closer look at the loco uncoupling:

 

 

It runs very smoothly.   It's not awfully fast (the video shows it at full speed) but it's fast enough to by prototypical I think.   It has really good slow speed control, like DCC, and of course it does not hesitate at points nor refuse to start without a nudge or a prod.  I think this is the most impressive part, you turn the knob on the controller and it just starts off!  

 

In the uncoupling video for instance it's very easy to position the train over the uncoupler (I'm using Greenwich couplings with under track magnets).

 

Yes, it is running on its own internal LiPo battery, there is no power on the track.

 

 

Frank

[Robin2]

I have just stumbled on this Thread today. I have already come across two other Threads on this forum dealing with Radio Control. These are http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64616-battery-poweredradio-controlled-locos/page-4  on which, in post #85 I have a link to a short video showing my conversion of an NGauge Grafar Large Prairie to battery powered radio control and http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/18108-radio-controlled-road-vehicle-and-powered-gantry-crane/page-11 which deals with R/C road vehicles.

 

I have been (so far unsuccessively) petitioning Andy to provide some sort of link on the main forum page that can guide people to these different Threads as there is a huge amount of common technology.

 

With the tiny Deltang receivers and small LiPo batteries radio control is now practical in most NGauge locos (I'm not sure about a Terrier!) and certainly in all of the bigger scales.

 

Look at what has been achieved with cheap tiny flying models where all the battery, radio and motor technology is integrated at the design stage. If the same approach was applied to model trains we could have fabulous models - including radio controlled uncoupling.

 

...R

[Robin2]

People who follow this topic might be interested to note that there is now a "Radio Control" group in Special Interests.

 

...R

[TheQ]

Someone may have mentioned this before (its a long thread) but the answer to the flat batteries or batteries not having sufficent stored power is simple, you have a plain non controlled 12 volts on the track, if the track is dirty it does matter the battery keeps you running to the next clean bit and the track recharges the battery then. This would greatly extend the life of the run. and at the  end of a session you could have a clean few yards of track in the fiddle yard where there is nothing to knock over while track cleaning and park up for a full charge.

The Q

[raymw]

Somewhere, I've seen videos and other information on infra red control systems - this removes any possible problems with radio licensing compliance, etc. It would be relatively simple to install - IIRC a few ir transmitters above the layout, and a photo cell on the loco (plus decoding requirements). I've not looked into it much, but I reckon it would be easy enough to piggy back it onto an existing dcc system. There are suitable encoding/decoding chips available. Now, what could be _interesting_ would be if the ir was incorporated into signals, line of sight, etc.

 

Ray

[Robin2]

I don't think there is any licensing issue with 2.4Ghz radio control and its available now and really easy to install - two wires from receiver to battery (with a switch in the line) and two wires to the motor.

 

...R