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Battery powered/Radio controlled locos


StuartM
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These are not RC controlled, they have infra-red gear, Which is OK, but only line-of-sight.

 

As for manufacturers picking this up, well there is a lot of difference between what a single careful worker can do an and what can be done in mass production. I wouldn't like to think how much a mass produced version of these vehicles would cost, nor how reliable they would be.

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Tomix and Faller have made reliable steering chassis for their guided systems so all you really need to add is a micro servo and receiver adding plus the light contacts. Having a adjustable length chassis that could fit most vans and buses and some 4x4's and run like that would be superb.

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I've found this:-

 

http://selketal-h0m.de.tl/Mikromodelle.htm

 

Stuart quote #300:-

 

" Probably not achievable in ngauge, but certainly proves the point in 00/H0"

 

Remember these are road vehicles, and road vehicles are smaller than rail transport (I think the railway in the videos is narrow gauge). Have a look at that white van, do you reckon it could be about as small as an N gauge locomotive? Here's another superb vid:-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUzzmUxcfM8

 

Bill quote #301:-

 

" These are not RC controlled, they have infra-red gear, Which is OK, but only line-of-sight."

 

Actually I am taking RC to stand for Remote Control. Would not the title of this board be better being 'Remote Control'? You are right they are infra red but I'm intregued to know how you figured that out. I also thought infra red meant line-of-sight, but the RC diesel I have on loan is infra red and it has a sensor at both ends and I do not have to aim the handset. It doesn't matter where I aim the handset it still works, it even works though a wall, that is when I'm in the next room and the adjoining door is open.

 

It's a shame Faller only cater for the toy market. I think they have gone digital but I have not found a Faller digital system that moves prototypically. Another company have used their vehicles and given them model type movement, but these are not RC:-

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmZTFoeTiIM

 

Rich

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I would guess, for say half a dozen rc cars, you need half doz guys driving them, plus extra for 'driving' the trains. Could be a bit of falling over each other :angel:  The Faller system does not look very realistic to me, since the speed around corners seems to be the same as on the straight, and I think you need a fairly smooth road surface, which afaik, eventually gets shiny where the follower runs.

 

Still, both a pretty good beginning, but needs a bit more tech. for it to be worthwhile.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

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Yes Ray, rather than individual RC road vehicles, if you wanted some road traffic on automatic you could use the Dynamo MCC system, and then have a few RC road vehicles to drive about amongst the ones on automatic. That could be challenging. You mention the cornering, notice that even they have slipped up a bit with the cornering but they are able to adjust their speed as you can see by their realistic starts and stops so it seems to me that the system has the capability to make them slow down on corners.

 

I am really showing this RC system to show how small RC equipment can be these days and still be good enough for model locomotives.

 

Rich

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Sorry Stuart, but your starter video in #1 is one example, as is the transformer video in #37 and Robin's video in #131.

 

 

Ha ha …. that's because you're not used to driving a model.

 

I am really showing this RC system to show how small RC equipment can be these days and still be good enough for model locomotives.

 

Rich

 

When I look at these comments I can't help feeling @Switcher102 is taking some trouble to belittle the contributions of various contributors here. The sense I get is that he feels that what he calls "toy" behaviour isn't worth the trouble. As far as I can tell from his comments @Switcher102 hasn't made any R/C trains (or road vehicles) himself.

 

I don't think anyone here considers his products to be anywhere near perfect and I'm sure everyone is delighted to see examples of other achievements.

 

But it is easy to show a video of a good model and say "I wish I could make one like this" or "I wish I could buy one like this" without needing to pass adverse comments on achievements that others are pleased with.

 

Railway modelling is a hobby that can be enjoyed at many different levels and no good will come from making dismissive comments about others.

 

My own preference is in the ability to mix my interest in computer programming with my interest in model railways. I will never be a railway rivet counter and neither will I be a super computer guru. If I am honest I will probably never finish my model railway layout - but I like having it there to think about and tinker with from time to time.

 

...R

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Aaaaau, don't be like that Robin. I tell you what, I'll take that taxi out of here again (provided of course it moves with realism - don't you just hate it when the real thing jerks about like a toy … hate that hate that) and I'll make sure he keeps going …. into the sunset ….

 

…. BUT, watch out, I might be back.

 

Rich

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I have found that many modellers seem to forget the movement aspect (which is just as important in a demo video as it is in normal operation, in fact more so in this thread). The number of times I have seen a superbly detailed model made to jerk about like a toy is something I find very depressing (and puzzling). Anyway, back to the plot, for me the main initial, repeat initial problem I had with RC was its toy image. RC as a concept is not something that needed to be demonstrated to me, and I doubt many people, I even knew that the technology was getting smaller as I have seen very small toys operated by RC, but the point is they were all toys, or at least moved like them. Some of them may have looked like models but the RC equipment made them move like toys, and I'm afraid to point out that a lot of the videos trying to promote RC for model railways on this thread have also made the models move like toys, which to me defeats the object. We already know RC can do that, the question is can it make them move like the real thing, can it make a model move like a model?

 

Rich

 

OK Rich, I'll bite...... <smile>

 

Below is a video taken at this years AMRA (Australian Model Railway Association) exhibition in Perth, Western Australia.

There are a few layouts in the clip, but the first one (Rails to Rubicon) is my own On30 layout based on timber tramway practices in the

state of Victoria here in Australia. The loco's are all running using R/C (Deltang equipment). As the prototype never ran much over 10mph, 

hopefully the video shows that the running can be slow, smooth, and prototypical with R/C.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoRKi01mJ5c

 

Obviously this video isn't intended to showcase R/C as such, and is just an exhibition 'highlight' clip from a fellow modeller.

 

As a matter of interest, The kit bashed Bachmann gas mechanical loco shown in the clip, with 500mah of lipo batteries, I was getting

a full days exhibition running time (7hours).

 

John H.

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Excellent John, thanks very much for that, nice one. It's almost therapeutic watching your locomotives. Impressive layout, and at 1:48 scale that means that gas mechanical is quite small. I imagine the RC equipment is quite tightly packed inside  The technical info is interesting. As I understand it for every 1000mAh of battery power you get 1 hour's running time if your loco pulls 1 amp. Therefore that means your loco was pulling a minutely small fraction of an amp.

 

Actually many people missunderstand my views on model operation. I'm not really an advocate for slow driving (although in your layout's case John if that's how they drove then that's how they drove, and that should be portrayed) and they are surprised to sometimes see me driving my locos like a 'bat out of hell' (even I have my 'Grrrr, let's give it some' moments). When I refer to prototypical motion I am referring to start-stops and accel/deceleration rates. Whenever I get a loco going fast it will always have been started and accelerated at a realistic rate, and conversely it would take a while for me to bring such a fast moving locomotive to a stop. I would never purposely make a locomotive move with such G forces that would cause scaled occupants injury, even when testing a locomotive.

 

Thanks for taking a bite John

Rich

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I also thought infra red meant line-of-sight, but the RC diesel I have on loan is infra red and it has a sensor at both ends and I do not have to aim the handset. It doesn't matter where I aim the handset it still works, it even works though a wall, that is when I'm in the next room and the adjoining door is open.

 

Actually, I was wrong here .... Uuuh! Shock, horror! .... Yes, I know, it is quite unbelievable isn't it?

 

Although the RC loco I have on loan does have IR sensors they are not being used by this handset. Apparently it is radio controlled. No wonder I don't have to aim it.

 

Rich

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Simon,

Welcome to radio control!

As regards getting it all to fit in, the key issue is fitting the battery in. I have used two sizes of battery, both single cell, both basically rectangular, and both about the same width as the loco I am fitting them in. So they fit across the loco OK. For the Peco tram and also for a Gem varikit I used a 180 mAh battery which was fairly wide, but fitted across the width of the chassis OK; for the other ones based on the Kato 11-103 chassis I used a 130 mAh battery which is about the same width as the chassis so just sits nicely on top of it.

This shows the yellow NP diesel with the body off:



This shows the battery inside the Varikit body:



And this shows the rest of the installation on the chassis:



I had to extend the side tanks of this to get the battery in. The radio is behind the motor in the cab.

If possible I now mount the switch and charging plug underneath the chassis facing down towards the track, it hides them but they are still accessible.

Here is the radio gear fitted into a 3D printed tank body:



And here is the finished loco:



As regards metal bodies, for the early ones I did worry about shielding and in fact I mounted the radio in the cab and replaced a metal panel in the cab with plastic. However later on I decided this was not a problem and the last loco I built was a brass body with the radio and its own short wire aerial inside and it works fine.

Hope this helps.

Frank

Edited by Andy Y
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hello again folks

 

Just a quick note to give a plug for this up coming firm …

 

http://www.protocab.com/

 

…. who are exhibiting at the Scaleforum show this weekend in Aylesbury. They've been beavering away for sometime now to get their product ready for sale but it seems they're getting close now. The video doesn't really show much but I think they loook very promising, I'll type more later about why I think so but just posting this in the hope I might catch someone who's interested and could go to the Aylesbury show and perhaps give us some feedback. Sorry late posting this.

 

Rich

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That's a good saying Simon, better to do things right than right now. I'm glad you went to the show and that Protocab are looking good. It looks like a very good system, they think like I do. They want to try and make it a hands free system. The things that have put me off RC in the past has been all the handling. Big clunky switches to switch on and off, heavy handling to recharge, or even having to remove batteries, but they are dealing with such issues. No removal of batteries, light touch switches, in the future even induction charging which requires no handling .... and no jack rabbit starts which I've also associated with RC. They will be using the lithium ion batteries which give more power per size, meaning smaller batteries, and supplying protective circuitry with them, also back up protective circuitry.

 

I advise if anyone is interested to get onto their newsletter mailing list. They produce a good newsletter, and I also advise asking for past issues.

 

Ken, it would be interesting to hear about model boat technology, but last time someone mentioned model boats, referring to smoke generators, the generators were so big you wouldn't be able to fit anything else in your locomotive. Do they have any technology that is small enough for O gauge and the smaller scales? I mean small enough that they don't take up all the space

:)

Edited by Switcher102
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Hi Guys

 

Wow what a mine of info here! I too firmly agree that BPRC is the way forward. I cannot grasp wiring or more particularly when things go wrong I am sunk!

 

I have an 0 gauge line with several large diesel outline models (Heljan and San Cheng) The Heljan ones particularly have very heavy current draw when starting. On the plus sde there is plenty of room for batteries. I would love to convert them to Battery Power. I have seen the Red Arrow system but it is pricey. Has anyone converted a Heljan loco in 7mm to battery using the original motors?

 

I would also hope that any system would allow sound to be run as well as traction. Is this possible and has it been done?

 

So many questions.

 

Please keep the info coming. Many thanks.

 

Martin Long

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I think battery and RC have applications both separately and combined. But I don't see it as an upgrade for all railway modelling, which is the way DCC can definitely be considered.

 

As a modeller in HO, of electric trains continuously powered from Overhead Wire, firstly, I can't see the point of having a battery at all.

 

Much of my current effort is redesigning mechanisms for my various EMU's and Trams, so that the motor, gears etc.,  can be moved below the window line, leaving the interior clear for illumination and detailing.  So I'm certainly not interested in re- blocking up the interior with batteries instead.

 

As I have models representing a large interurban system, we are talking of running a randomly selection of as many as 200 self powered passenger vehicles/trains. Since 95% plus of those will eventually be controlled by a computer rather than a human, throttle mobility is irrelevant for other than just a few controls.

 

If I (or the computer) don't want to plan days ahead which units from the pool will be used, I don't see an easy way of keeping say 200 units all fully charged, ready to go, without (a) having them all somehow simultaneously connected to a charging source and aging their batteries due to continuous charging.

 

Lastly, if the batteries need replacing every few years, it would not be long before I'd be buying and refitting a replacement battery on average every 4-5 days.

 

Andy

Edited by Andy Reichert
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Hi Guys

 

Wow what a mine of info here! I too firmly agree that BPRC is the way forward. I cannot grasp wiring or more particularly when things go wrong I am sunk!

 

I have an 0 gauge line with several large diesel outline models (Heljan and San Cheng) The Heljan ones particularly have very heavy current draw when starting. On the plus sde there is plenty of room for batteries. I would love to convert them to Battery Power. I have seen the Red Arrow system but it is pricey. Has anyone converted a Heljan loco in 7mm to battery using the original motors?

 

I would also hope that any system would allow sound to be run as well as traction. Is this possible and has it been done?

 

So many questions.

 

Please keep the info coming. Many thanks.

 

Martin Long

 

 

How many amps do the locos need for starting and continuous running under load?

 

How many volts do you need?

 

there are receiver chips available that are rated up to 3 Amps at 18 volts.

 

No sound yet that I know of but there is provision for lights.

Edited by davetheroad
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I think battery and RC have applications both separately and combined. But I don't see it as an upgrade for all railway modelling, which is the way DCC can definitely be considered.

 

As a modeller in HO, of electric trains continuously powered from Overhead Wire, firstly, I can't see the point of having a battery at all.

 

Much of my current effort is redesigning mechanisms for my various EMU's and Trams, so that the motor, gears etc.,  can be moved below the window line, leaving the interior clear for illumination and detailing.  So I'm certainly not interested in re- blocking up the interior with batteries instead.

 

As I have models representing a large interurban system, we are talking of running a randomly selection of as many as 200 self powered passenger vehicles/trains. Since 95% plus of those will eventually be controlled by a computer rather than a human, throttle mobility is irrelevant for other than just a few controls.

 

If I (or the computer) don't want to plan days ahead which units from the pool will be used, I don't see an easy way of keeping say 200 units all fully charged, ready to go, without (a) having them all somehow simultaneously connected to a charging source and aging their batteries due to continuous charging.

 

Lastly, if the batteries need replacing every few years, it would not be long before I'd be buying and refitting a replacement battery on average every 4-5 days.

 

Andy

Seems like your layout with 200 'locos' is certainly not a candidate for BPRC and even with DCC must have cost a small fortune in chips!

 

In contrast, my layout under construction with 20 -30 locos has no wiring and should work fine. I expect to recharge about 3 to 5 battery packs per week, each recharge taking up to about an hour.

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Hi

 

Thanks for feedback. The motors can draw up to 3 amps to start but then settle down to about 1 amp when running. I see that Red Arrow have equipped a Heljan class 31 with their system so it is possible. It seems you need a big heat sink for the receiver gubbins.

 

Still think this is the way to go!

 

Martin

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