Jump to content
 

Battery powered/Radio controlled locos


StuartM
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • 2 weeks later...

Hello again battery control/wireless friends..!

You know what it's like when you go swimming and stay underwater as long as possible and then have to come to the surface for air? Well, our being quiet is a bit like that. We're still beavering away on tests and more tests. We're getting some excellent results from the latest iteration of the Loco Control Unit and we have managed to get over four hours intermittent running from a 1Ah battery in our test BR Class 5 from Bachmann (by intermittent I mean running a few laps of the test track, stopping for a chat, running again and so on - this test done at Scaleforum). On the second day (which closes earlier) we still had life left around 4p.m. so we put all nine coaches behind the Class 5 and whilst it didn't have any problem pulling them, it ran out of battery just before the end of the show.

It was a pleasure to meet Simon and all our other friends from this forum at Scaleforum and ExpoEM North. We had a very useful chat and had some great feedback on our new handheld controller.

From our last Club newsletter we now have all the beta testers ready for the final tests before product availability.

Prices look like being £108 for the controller and around £100 for all the components inside the loco (i.e. battery, Loco Control Unit and Plug Charging Unit).

We are now putting the final touches to a new website which will have significantly more information than the current one. I'll let you know here when it's up and running.

 

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+EssLtd

Bowermadden

Scotland

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

,,,,here's the handheld controller referred to in my last post. Nine locos can be allocated, one per button. Switch on the loco using the LocoSwitch (touch pad inside the body of the loco attached to the Protocab LCU) and the button lights green. Press the button to select the loco (button turns red) and turn the centre-off knob whichever way you want the loco to go.

There is a 'simulation' mode, which means that the control knob becomes an accelerator... return the knob to zero and the loco coasts, move the knob the opposite direction to apply the brakes (i.e. if the loco is coasting in the  forward direction, turning the knob to zero lets the loco coast, turn it to reverse and the brakes are applied).

Locos are allocated to the buttons by attaching the controller through its charging port (the battery inside the controller is rechargeable) to a computer running MS Windows (other operating systems are available and will be catered for eventually!) and running a free program.

The range between the controller and the loco is pretty good, several tens of metres. Due to the possible supply problems with the previous antenna we were using, we have now switched to a new one and will be testing range in the coming days.

BTW... those who have been following Acc+Ess Protocab progress will be asking about the Concentrator and whether you need one with the handheld controller. The answer is no, you don't, the handheld communicates directly with the loco. However, the Concentrator is very much in development for the more complex and advanced functions that we are developing.

 

Best regards

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

Bowermadden

Scotland

post-14375-0-63926300-1413761019_thumb.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

I now have a layout of sorts on which to run my BPRC locos, Pengarigg by name and totally wire free, honest!. I am now buying receivers and buying rolling stock etc etc.

 

I have spent many hours thinking about the run time needed for the locos and worrying about battery capacity. I need many hours between recharges don't I? No i don't!, thinking about how I 'play trains' reveals that in a typical operating session a loco is unlikely to run for more than about 15-20 minutes. By standardising on small single cell micro 'Eflite' type batteries plugged into a 2S or 3S harness I can just pop the batteries on the charger after running the loco. No need for balance charging and no worry about batteries becoming unbalanced during discharge as they will still have 40%-50% of their charge left. No need for complex accounting and book keeping either.

 

These little lipos are available in several capacities up to 220mAh, all with same connector, a larger connector gives capacities up to 550mAh. My Eflite charger has 4 independant charging sockets, each delivering 300mAh.

 

i have started endurance testing the locos under typical loads and to avoid terminal boredom as the train goes round and round and........!. i have bought some little 70mAh batteries. theoretically one of these will provide 1Amp for 4.2 minutes. the results can then be scaled up for larger capacities.

 

Summery of the first few tests are:

 

1 - Hornby Midland compund 4-4-0 Railroad range second hand

2S 70mAh battery 7.4 volt

load 8x Hornby Railroad Mk1 coaches

test speed 60mph

result - loco started slowing after 42 minutes

top speed was 66mph

loco draws approx 0.1amps under normal operating load

 

2 - Hornby Railroad Duke of Gloucester 4-6-2

3S 70mAh battery 11.1 volt

load 9X Railroad Mk1 coaches, 2x Dapol LMS coaches, 1x 12 wheel dining car

test speed 60mph

result - loco started slowing after 25 minutes

top speed was 78mph

loco draws 0.17amps under normal operating load

 

3 - Hornby Railroad 'Jinty' 0-6-0 second hand

2S 70mah battery 7.4 volt

load 2x Railroad Mk1 and 1 open wagon (to carry the battery)

test speed 30mph

result - loco started slowing after 37 minutes

top speed was 52mph

loco draws 0.12amps under normal operating load

 

4 - Bachmann 3F 0-6-0 tender loco

2S 70mAh battery 7.4volt

load 4x railroad mk1 coaches

test speed 35mph (loco normally hauls freight)

result - test abandoned after 50 mins due to boredom!

top speed was 47mph

loco draws 0.085amps

ps the loco will haul 9X railroad Mk1 without any problem.

 

I find these results very good, especially that Bahmann 3F.. There will be no problem with any of the locos reaching their run times. The3F would be happy with the 70mAh batteries but they are just for testing and a set of say 160mAh is cheaper to buy!.

 

Only 12 more locos to go -so far.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

In real railway life, the more intensive the service, the more convenience and economic pressure there is to electrify, rather than have have the extra cost and space and distribution infrastructure of placing (and replenishing) fuel on board.

 

The driving forces behind that reality, are not really any different for the model railway. 

 

Bachmann here in the US just introduced a whole range of Radio Controlled model locomotives for the consumer HO model railroad market. But they don't have batteries - just radio control.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I now have a layout of sorts on which to run my BPRC locos,

That's very useful and encouraging.

 

And you can schedule "real" visits to the depot to add fuel

 

@Andy Reichert, I would need a lot of convincing that the savings with real electric trains fully offset the huge costs of building and maintaining the Overhead Line system, the connections to the power stations and the extra generating capacity. I suspect the whole affair is being subsidized at the expense of small electricity consumers and/or the taxpayer. If it made economic sense the train operating companies would cover the entire cost AND be able to reduce fares for consumers.

 

...R

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's very useful and encouraging.

 

And you can schedule "real" visits to the depot to add fuel

 

@Andy Reichert, I would need a lot of convincing that the savings with real electric trains fully offset the huge costs of building and maintaining the Overhead Line system, the connections to the power stations and the extra generating capacity. I suspect the whole affair is being subsidized at the expense of small electricity consumers and/or the taxpayer. If it made economic sense the train operating companies would cover the entire cost AND be able to reduce fares for consumers.

 

...R

 

Look around your house. How many non-portable appliances, devices, light fixtures, etc. do you have that are battery operated, because it's cheaper than connecting them to the mains?

Edited by Andy Reichert
Link to post
Share on other sites

Cost does not have anything to do with it for me. It is nostalgia, I had an extensive modern image DC N gauge layout and planning all those isolation sections etc etc was just plain boring. Operating it also also involved lots of rail cleaning and the frequent application of the hand of god. Last spring it was all swept away and i decided on a basic change. A new 00 scale layout based on north west England between 1935 -55. All steam engines, not even a couple of diesels. I could have called it Grandads engines. He was a driver with LMS and then British Rail based in Carlisle. I don't remember him as he died when i was 3 and not much information on his career survived the sands of time. I remember my mother telling me he drove the 'Royal Scot'. If so that was a premier crack express train between London and Glasgow!. This was good enough for me.

 

Anyway back to the present. If modern electronics and batteries were available back in the days of clockwork railways I wonder if rail electrical power would have developed at all. checking out the DCC forums here show electrical issues are always there. it seems DCC modellers spend as much time in track cleaning as DC users. I decided to spend some of that time changing batteries.

 

So i was starting from scratch with the layout and decided to give BPRC a try. no wiring!. the engines just move when commanded, no hand of god required and as long as you keep the track free of dust, fluff, spiders, toddlers and cats everything should be fine. i have a throttle, brakes and inertia, perfect. Dont need lights as they were insignificant on british locos, basically a small paraffin lantern. Don't need sound etc etc. All these bells and whistles (literally) will come with time. My locos will work on any other layout, DC or DCC, without interfering with those layouts operation.

 

To sum up. i think if you are just starting a new layout and don't need all those DCC wonder things try BPRC. You don't have to commit to more than one loco and transmitter to try it.

 

Phew, apologies for the rant.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Cost does not have anything to do with it for me. It is nostalgia, I had an extensive modern image DC N gauge layout and planning all those isolation sections etc etc was just plain boring. Operating it also also involved lots of rail cleaning and the frequent application of the hand of god. Last spring it was all swept away and i decided on a basic change. A new 00 scale layout based on north west England between 1935 -55. All steam engines, not even a couple of diesels. I could have called it Grandads engines. He was a driver with LMS and then British Rail based in Carlisle. I don't remember him as he died when i was 3 and not much information on his career survived the sands of time. I remember my mother telling me he drove the 'Royal Scot'. If so that was a premier crack express train between London and Glasgow!. This was good enough for me.

 

Anyway back to the present. If modern electronics and batteries were available back in the days of clockwork railways I wonder if rail electrical power would have developed at all. checking out the DCC forums here show electrical issues are always there. it seems DCC modellers spend as much time in track cleaning as DC users. I decided to spend some of that time changing batteries.

 

So i was starting from scratch with the layout and decided to give BPRC a try. no wiring!. the engines just move when commanded, no hand of god required and as long as you keep the track free of dust, fluff, spiders, toddlers and cats everything should be fine. i have a throttle, brakes and inertia, perfect. Dont need lights as they were insignificant on british locos, basically a small paraffin lantern. Don't need sound etc etc. All these bells and whistles (literally) will come with time. My locos will work on any other layout, DC or DCC, without interfering with those layouts operation.

 

To sum up. i think if you are just starting a new layout and don't need all those DCC wonder things try BPRC. You don't have to commit to more than one loco and transmitter to try it.

 

Phew, apologies for the rant.

 

Well from the quote earlier in the thread:

 

"Prices look like being £108 for the controller and around £100 for all the components inside the loco (i.e. battery, Loco Control Unit and Plug Charging Unit)."

 

None of the loco components part, would be needed in any of my locomotives. But I could spend about the same on DCC for the controller and £25 for a DCC chip in each "loco" and get at least the same "modern electronics" performance.

 

I doubt the typical other potential customers will agree with the "cost isn't anything to do with it" aspect of your situation. So I would suggest market economics will have a considerable effect. After all, this could have been used for model railways from the same time many decades ago, when the market for inexpensive radio controlled aeroplanes "took off".  But it still hasn't.

 

Please don't misunderstand my comments as not supporting advantages of Radio Control (or especially wireless cab cameras reception - I'm all for that). It's the unconditional desire to have redundant batteries as well that I find illogical and disturbing. 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy Reichert
Link to post
Share on other sites

The great thing about hobbies in general, and model railways are no exception, is that no one is compelled to do anything they don't want to. We have plenty of modellers visiting the stand at exhibitions who tell us that they are quite content with power through the tracks. We also have a big and growing list of modellers that want to adopt battery power. It's whatever the individual wants and feels comfortable with. Acc+Ess Protocab and the other systems that base the power on batteries are not replacements, they are alternatives. I personally want battery power. Many of my modeller friends don't. We've based Protocab on my wants and desires as a modeller and if other modellers migrate from track power to battery then great, if not, then equally great. The important thing is that everyone enjoys and gets the most out of the hobby. What I think is true is that whether you go for track power or battery power, we are truly living in a golden age of modelling, as a friend of ours who lives nearby has commented.

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The great thing about hobbies in general, and model railways are no exception, is that no one is compelled to do anything they don't want to. We have plenty of modellers visiting the stand at exhibitions who tell us that they are quite content with power through the tracks. We also have a big and growing list of modellers that want to adopt battery power. It's whatever the individual wants and feels comfortable with. Acc+Ess Protocab and the other systems that base the power on batteries are not replacements, they are alternatives. I personally want battery power. Many of my modeller friends don't. We've based Protocab on my wants and desires as a modeller and if other modellers migrate from track power to battery then great, if not, then equally great. The important thing is that everyone enjoys and gets the most out of the hobby. What I think is true is that whether you go for track power or battery power, we are truly living in a golden age of modelling, as a friend of ours who lives nearby has commented.

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

Very well put.

 

ps - you could run radio control on track power if you wanted at the cost of a rectifier and stay alive capacitor in the loco.

 

pps - I also think batteries are the way to go. With emerging new technologies we may see batteries with several times the capacity and recharge times less than a minute. This within the next few years. there are batteries in the labs with over a 100 times the capacity!!!!.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to try battery powered radio control now and don't want to spend a large amount of cash you can equip a loco with the DelTang system for about £40 and the neat hand held transmitters start at about £45 for a single loco controller or £60 for one that will control 12 locos. The receivers are about the same size as DCC chips. The transmitter looks like a train controller not an airplane controller. And it works very well.

 

Frank

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

There are two desirable properties promised with BP/RC:-

 

1/ On board battery power to over come intermittent/unreliable stuttering operation,

2/ Much reduced base board wiring.

 

Many are frightened of 'electrickery' and the work involved in designing and fitting it. And even the 'threat' of stalling loco's is enough to put people 'playing trains'! Do not underestimate these two.

 

 

But track, and more importantly, wheel cleaning will still be required - albeit at a much reduced frequency - as crud builds up and causes derailments! (Even on plastic wheels!!)

 

 

Kev.

(Who is very happy with electronics and will be developing my own system some time in the next two hundred years..)

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two desirable properties promised with BP/RC:-

 

1/ On board battery power to over come intermittent/unreliable stuttering operation,

2/ Much reduced base board wiring.

 

Many are frightened of 'electrickery' and the work involved in designing and fitting it. And even the 'threat' of stalling loco's is enough to put people 'playing trains'! Do not underestimate these two.

 

 

But track, and more importantly, wheel cleaning will still be required - albeit at a much reduced frequency - as crud builds up and causes derailments! (Even on plastic wheels!!)

 

 

Kev.

(Who is very happy with electronics and will be developing my own system some time in the next two hundred years..)

1 and 2 are the main drivers for my experiments.

 

another thought, inclines, steep inclines. I could bullfrog sn... all the driving wheels on a loco, or how about doing the track instead!.

 

my next project is an ancient (2001) Hornby tank loco that a friend gave me. It wont run and not surprising as the quartering is off and the mechanism was rubbing on the chassis at various points. I fixed the quartering, hopefull,y and will try some tests. i wonder how many amps that huge motor will draw?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

 

4 - Bachmann 3F 0-6-0 tender loco

2S 70mAh battery 7.4volt

load 4x railroad mk1 coaches

test speed 35mph (loco normally hauls freight)

result - test abandoned after 50 mins due to boredom!

top speed was 47mph

loco draws 0.085amps

ps the loco will haul 9X railroad Mk1 without any problem.

 

I find these results very good, especially that Bahmann 3F.. There will be no problem with any of the locos reaching their run times. The3F would be happy with the 70mAh batteries but they are just for testing and a set of say 160mAh is cheaper to buy!.

 

Only 12 more locos to go -so far.

Dave,

 

Does the 3F have a coreless motor in it? I ask as in N Bachmann have started using coreless motors but I don't know about 4mm. I notice that the current draw was less than the Hornby locos which have probably got less efficient motors and hence would be drawing more current from the batteries.

 

David

Link to post
Share on other sites

The great thing about hobbies in general, and model railways are no exception, is that no one is compelled to do anything they don't want to. We have plenty of modellers visiting the stand at exhibitions who tell us that they are quite content with power through the tracks. We also have a big and growing list of modellers that want to adopt battery power. It's whatever the individual wants and feels comfortable with. Acc+Ess Protocab and the other systems that base the power on batteries are not replacements, they are alternatives. I personally want battery power. Many of my modeller friends don't. We've based Protocab on my wants and desires as a modeller and if other modellers migrate from track power to battery then great, if not, then equally great. The important thing is that everyone enjoys and gets the most out of the hobby. What I think is true is that whether you go for track power or battery power, we are truly living in a golden age of modelling, as a friend of ours who lives nearby has commented.

 

Tony Hagon

Director

Acc+Ess Ltd

 

All long term useful product solutions come down to features vs. benefits in the end. The trick for the consumer is to know which are which, and for the marketeer to make his company's proprietary features into the maximum appearing benefits.

 

For example, how thin and what colour do you actually need an iPad to be?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave,

 

Does the 3F have a coreless motor in it? I ask as in N Bachmann have started using coreless motors but I don't know about 4mm. I notice that the current draw was less than the Hornby locos which have probably got less efficient motors and hence would be drawing more current from the batteries.

 

David

I did a quick google search but can't find any definitive information, other than lots of stuff warning about coreless motors and PWM controllers. My Deltang Rx's use PWM but I guess the 16Khz frequency minimises any problems.

 

I have spent a frustrating day with that old Hornby loco. Fixed the wheel quartering, Fixed the worm rubbing on the chassis, fixed the front wheels rubbing on the body. stripped out all the electrics and isolated the commutator brushes from the chassis. Tested it with a 2S 7.4 volt battery and got a scale 78mph!. The problem is those ancient wheels and the back to backs being about 1mm too narrow for my Peco code 100 points. A spectacular derailment followed as the loco climbed over the point frogs. i think that loco will be ignored for a few months!.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did a quick google search but can't find any definitive information, other than lots of stuff warning about coreless motors and PWM controllers. My Deltang Rx's use PWM but I guess the 16Khz frequency minimises any problems.

 

 

The simple way of telling if the motor is a coreless one is if a worm is mounted on the motor shaft, it is unlikely to be a coreless motor.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...Does the 3F have a coreless motor in it? I ask as in N Bachmann have started using coreless motors but I don't know about 4mm. I notice that the current draw was less than the Hornby locos which have probably got less efficient motors and hence would be drawing more current from the batteries...

No, it's got a regular 3 pole motor of the generic pattern that Bachmann have used these last dozen years.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Look around your house. How many non-portable appliances, devices, light fixtures, etc. do you have that are battery operated, because it's cheaper than connecting them to the mains?

 

This is a facile analogy.

But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is part of the justification used by the industries that promote electric railway traction.

 

...R

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a facile analogy.

But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is part of the justification used by the industries that promote electric railway traction.

 

...R

 

I agree completely.  How many mobile appliances do you see that are connected to mains?  The only mobile applicance can think of is a robotic vacuum cleaner, which is, not-surprisingly, battery powered.  Since when was 'non-portable' a relevant requirement for a model railway locomotive?  Unless I unknowingly moved up to a much larger scale...

 

I also don't think that a comparison to prototype practice is relevant to the discussion, surely nobody sane would think that the same reasoning would apply to both the prototype and a small scale model (unless the intention is to perfectly recreate the prototype, in which case we better set about finding some very, very small people to drive our trains).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Traditionally, batteries were reserved for low current, occasional use items, because the inconvenience of a mains connection was a greater concern than the higher per-watt-hour cost of running them or the bulkyness of the batteries.

 

The world is now a different place.  My 36 volt battery powered SDS+ drill will keep going all day putting cable tray along a wall without needing a recharge.  Battery powered cars are getting closer and closer to a practicable reality.  Like every new technology, the costs are falling, I predict that a kit to convert a 4mm loco will be below £10 in the next 2 years and, like PCs and smartphones, the features will be beyond what we might dream of today.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...