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Battery powered/Radio controlled locos


StuartM
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Andy, throw aah.

Dave, Ixion.

 

But I'm pursuing this purely for my own fun and amusement.

I'm a great fan of using Duracell technology - many years ago I used to design things that would sit on the seabed for years and still function when required to do. Some clever tricks with passive components worked wonders.

 

That's me I'm done - off to Hospital again on Friday.

 

Best wishes for the Hospital stuff. 

 

Andy

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3980_182024_410000000.jpg

 

I've read the posts on this forum with great interest. After 3 years of building BPRC prototypes, I thought I'd share my experience in converting my latest engine, a Broadway Limited 4-6-4 DCC equipped Hudson locomotive. The link below is from freerails.com. If you review Posts 687, 702 and 707, all the details are provided, including a YouTube video. I hope this is helpful for those interested in this excellent method of cab control. 

 

Dan

 

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=4451&forum_id=45&page=69

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What motors will work with the Deltang receiver/ESC units? Would I be right in assuming that the venerable XO4 is just too hairy-arsed?

Pretty much anything with brushes in it. There are various receivers with different amps output.

 

i have a old Hornby 0-6-0 loco with an open frame motor which has a big magnet on the back. It might be similar and i will post an image tomorrow. It works OK but the loco is undergoing heavy overhaul - quartering and back to backs

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:offtopic: I'm not sure a loco that requires a wired up, following 80 ft or so empty coach just to hold the batteries (and a step-up electronic voltage converter) qualifies as "battery powered loco".  Or even a model loco.

 

One could as arguably claim a prototype BPRC loco using a battery to power the track  . . . . .  one  wouldn't need the coach in that case.

 

Andy

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Here we go again !!!!

 

Of course it is a model loco. It can be a model without a motor sitting in a display case and it is still a model. The ability to move is not a requirement.

 

Of course it is a battery powered loco. It is powered by a battery!. there is no rule that states the battery has to be in the loco. Modern EMU's etc don't have the power in the loco do they.

 

Lets take the argument to its conclusion, the nearest you are going to get to a 'real' steam loco is an actual model steam powered loco. As operators don't want to follow the loco so they can operate the regulator, brake and whistle prototypically with their hands (maybe some do) they are going to use servos, what powers the servos? batteries, unless you have an onboard generator. How are you going to operate the controls? with a radio link.

Edited by davetheroad
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Battery power in a "trailer vehicle" (other than the tender) has been around for years in the larger scales. It always seemed to me to be an unsatisfactory solution - you can hardly operate prototypically if the first coach of the train has to go to the loco shed for coaling & turning...

 

So what you gain in smooth, uninterrupted operation, you lose in flexibility. It's battery powered train control.

 

Best

Simon

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It also depends on what trains you have and/or how you operate them.

 

With modern fixed formation DMU's, EMU's and HST's the trains are not divided so having batteries in a different coach makes no difference. It is sort of prototypical as well. A Pendolino might have 11 coaches but only 1 OHLE pickup. Power is then distributed to the motors spread along the train. So having a wire between coaches is prototypical.

 

Another example is a layout like mine where the main line 'elite' passenger expresses will either pass through or stop at the station. There is no requirement to couple or uncouple them. There are small loco facilities but they are for the branch line services.

 

Consider this, my 'hungriest' pacific loco will run for 20 mins on a 3S 70mAH battery in the tender. You could fit a much larger battery in there but what about the leading brake coach? Lets put a 1400mAh 3S battery in there. That gives us up to 6 hours 40 mins operation before recharge. Actually for me 15 minutes operation per loco is plenty, it gets boring after that, so I can expect up to 27 'sessions' from a battery recharge.

 

Say I have 20 different Royal Scots, Patriots, Jubilees and Duchesses etc and some get an outing weekly but some only every month or so. Do i need 20 radio receiver/battery installations? No!, i could have fewer and swop between locos as required. Another option is to put the receiver in the leading coach as well, simply plugging the loco in. This saves lots of money but less profit for the manufacturers. I could have 2 fixed formation passenger trains. The 'Up Scotch Express' and the 'Down Scotch Express'. that is 2 receivers and 2 sets of batteries, not 20!.

 

i estimate that if such batteries were custom designed for model trains you should be able to fit a 3S 700mAh in a typical 00 scale tender. This would mean my Duke of Gloucester 4-6-2 would run for over 3 hours and my 3F 0-6-0 tender freight loco for 7.5 hours, actually longer as it only needs a 2S battery, maybe over 10 hours !!!!

 

Perhaps to avoid confusion the topic should be titled Battery Powered Radio Controlled Trains.

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Here we go again !!!!

 

Of course it is a model loco. It can be a model without a motor sitting in a display case and it is still a model. The ability to move is not a requirement.

 

Of course it is a battery powered loco. It is powered by a battery!. there is no rule that states the battery has to be in the loco. Modern EMU's etc don't have the power in the loco do they.

 

Lets take the argument to its conclusion, the nearest you are going to get to a 'real' steam loco is an actual model steam powered loco. As operators don't want to follow the loco so they can operate the regulator, brake and whistle prototypically with their hands (maybe some do) they are going to use servos, what powers the servos? batteries, unless you have an onboard generator. How are you going to operate the controls? with a radio link.

 

line-car-electra-1-800.jpg

 

And drawing your same conclusion, as these are (BTW my) models of "real" electric locos, I should disconnect the trolley poles and stuff batteries in them, then add radio, since I can no longer  talk to them through the  prototypical OH wire any more?

Edited by Andy Reichert
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Andy,

I have written to the site moderator and asked for you to be removed from this thread, as every single comment you have made has been negative and adds nothing to the debate, and you seem more interested in showing us how much clever you are than the rest of us.

At first people engaged with you, but you will notice that most people now just ignore your comments.

If you want to make a positive contribution to the debate, fine, if not please leave the room.

Stuart M

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Andy,

I have written to the site moderator and asked for you to be removed from this thread, as every single comment you have made has been negative and adds nothing to the debate, and you seem more interested in showing us how much clever you are than the rest of us.

At first people engaged with you, but you will notice that most people now just ignore your comments.

If you want to make a positive contribution to the debate, fine, if not please leave the room.

Stuart M

Apparently Andy is a system developer, manufacturer and retailer of model rail stuff including some soon to be announced products for DCC. Maybe this explains somewhat his position?

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wireless%20ericsson%20card%202.jpg

 

Actually I'm a retired VP R&D of the company that introduced Bluetooth, and of course a MR hobby advanced R/C experimenter. So I'm extremely interested in seeing that digital radio control for Model railways is performed well, and that any technical misunderstandings posted are clearly explained as such to my fellow modellers.

 

The last thing in the World I would be interested in doing would be to develop any battery powered systems (competitive or otherwise) for small scale Model Railways. There are already three over here in the USA, and I'm not interested in adding any more dilution or distraction to that for profit tiny market segment.

 

Andy

Edited by Andy Reichert
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Andy,

 

Is it true that Proto87 is developing DCC products?

 

Frank

 

No.  Anyway, it's a long matured marketplace and BTW I'm not at all a fan of diesel sound decoders.  :no:

 

I do have on trial some ANE servo controllers for turnouts which have a static DCC decoder option, and their modular lighting units, which can use DCC track power, but I'm not developing my own. I am more interested in using them as animation motion controllers. (PECO just signed them up, if you didn't know).

 

Everything I do is intended to fill the awkward component gaps in being able to make Proto:scales such as P4 and P:87 work easily and reliably for anyone who wants to try them, regardless of whether they are technical or skilled. But that does include more futuristic aspects, like having the doors on my BART cars slide open and shut realistically.

 

Andy

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No.  Anyway, it's a long matured marketplace and BTW I'm not at all a fan of diesel sound decoders.  :no:

 

I do have on trial some ANE servo controllers for turnouts which have a static DCC decoder option, and their modular lighting units, which can use DCC track power, but I'm not developing my own. I am more interested in using them as animation motion controllers. (PECO just signed them up, if you didn't know).

 

Everything I do is intended to fill the awkward component gaps in being able to make Proto:scales such as P4 and P:87 work easily and reliably for anyone who wants to try them, regardless of whether they are technical or skilled. But that does include more futuristic aspects, like having the doors on my BART cars slide open and shut realistically.

 

Andy

Andy's website says:

 

"SPECIAL PURPOSE DCC DECODERS AND APPLICATION SYSTEMS

 

Now that our track product range is almost complete, in the coming year we expect to expand into some original and very advanced Model Railroad Command and Control Applications. These will require several various customized DCC Auxiliary Decoder and Electronic Systems which are already in the design stages."

 

The same website has a photo of one of his trains on the news archive page, as below.

 

Frank

post-19216-0-98834300-1416677781.jpg

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I have to say that this does seem to be a rather bad tempered forum.

 

I think Chaz summed up a set of requirements with which I largely agreed, I also proposed my own set, which, in simple terms were, "as capable as sound-equipped DCC and no more expensive, with the added bonus of no hiccoughs, nor track wiring (which, I actually have no issue with, but I can see the benefits of not having to do/maintain)"

 

I do think a number of people have achieved astonishing results in this area, and I look forward to seeing more, but not here.

 

Simon

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The trouble is, the real fundamental problem, never to be resolved, is that you can't scale nature. At some point, imagination has to come into play. It is just that imagination can take place in all manner of places, for different folk.

 

For the train shown by Fallen, above, if it were to run on a straight bit of track, only to a scale ten miles length, then it would most likely be simplest to fill the carriages with batteries and let it go. I think if track fed, it would require a number of in-feeds.

 

If you want to talk 'live steam' then a small scale steam powered model, it will not sound like a sound chip, the smoke and steam can not be scaled, and other issues come into play with what looks and sounds 'right', never mind the smell.

 

The lack of definitions/specifications will always throw up arguments, allowing too many assumptions to be made.

 

I don't think it is much of a problem, if an understanding is there.

 

So, you can buy stuff off the shelf, fit it all together, and end up with the same as everybody else. Or, you can cobble together a few home made parts, and end up in another place. Provided you get your amps and volts right, hopefully that other place will still be in this world, and then all of it can be fun.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

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Andy's website says:

 

"SPECIAL PURPOSE DCC DECODERS AND APPLICATION SYSTEMS

 

Now that our track product range is almost complete, in the coming year we expect to expand into some original and very advanced Model Railroad Command and Control Applications. These will require several various customized DCC Auxiliary Decoder and Electronic Systems which are already in the design stages."

 

The same website has a photo of one of his trains on the news archive page, as below.

 

Frank

 

Note: The key word there is "auxiliary".  I.e. I tend to think of cooking up  add-ons to other other makers products, such as decoders or R/C receivers, to drive things like sliding doors. (I hate wasting my energy re-inventing existing wheels and I have a LOT of models that would look far better with working sliding doors).

 

FWIW The AEM-7 running in the You tube Proto:87 high speed running trial videos has a TCS decoder. My Pacific Electric Cars are using Digitrax ones.

 

But I see both direction digital wireless as a much more expandable method of sending those sort of additional control signals and getting feedback from other applications.

 

DCC was designed as a one way communications system, and has obvious bandwidth limitations if you want to send back data from the trains. Modern wireless digital network solutions don't have either limitation.

 

Andy

 

PS I have to apologize for the website's unfinished state. I've done nothing to it since July 2013, due to serious illness issues in my immediate family.

Edited by Andy Reichert
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And drawing your same conclusion, as these are (BTW my) models of "real" electric locos, I should disconnect the trolley poles and stuff batteries in them, then add radio, since I can no longer  talk to them through the  prototypical OH wire any more?

This is a silly comment.

 

...R

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I don't think Andy's comment is silly, unless you take it out of context. I think he is trying to emphasise that if you have a pair of conductors (maybe 3 if OH) why do you need to use radio for control? I could also add that Hornby, for example, made a steam system, with energy and some control through the track, a few years ago - radio was not required (referring back to the post where Andy's comment was made). Try thinking 'out of your box'

 

Different requirements can have different solutions  Batteries and radio is not the solution for everything, and much of that shown by Andy has dcc control/power, and is maybe the best at the moment for many requirements that he sees. How often has that got to be said?

 

Batteries seem to be the main problem, space being tight in 00 scale, worse in N. Earlier I asked about the tender dimensions, but nobody replied. I'm not into OO, so I've no idea about the required dimensions, but I may be able to resurrect some contacts from some years back, and see what batteries are available other than the consumer rc type stuff that everyone seems to have decided to use.

 

Earlier on I mentioned a small cell with a 1.2V output. The response was along the lines that more volts were needed, 1.2V was not enough. I'm beginning to think that you just can't help some people.

 

I thought it was a forum, if so not everybody will agree with everyone else. However, there seems to be little discussion or agreement, or real progress or understanding, just a firmer entrenchment of views.  It's not political, it's play, for goodness sake.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

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The hobby has room for all sorts of opinions and solutions to problems so as far as I am concerned if i want to use battery power with radio control that should be fine by everyone else. For me, I see advantages with following this route. I have started a 00 layout from scratch. I have not done ANY wiring and happily mixed electrofrog and isulfrog points. The rails are there to steer the trains. I have no problems with track cleaning, no stalling on points, no need for the hand of god and find exploring a 'new' approch to running model trains fun.

 

OK - examples of usable tender dimensions in mm

 

Hornby Midland Compound 4-4-0 - 80 x 25 x 15 but 10mm at one end has only 10mm height

 

Hornby Duke of Gloucester 4-6-2 - 70 x 25 x 16

 

Bachmann 3F 0-6-0 - 70 x 25 x 12

 

Hornby LMS Patriot 4-6-0 - 70 x 25 x 15

 

Hornby Jinty 0-6-0T - 14 x 7 x 50 in each water tank

 

For ease of access it would be preferable to place the receiver board in the tender but it could be located in the loco boiler if there is room.

 

Motor voltage -  the motors are all nominally 12V but I have found that i get good performance with less volts depending on load and maximum speed required. For example the big passenger locos are happiest with 11+ volts because of the high sppeds i want to model. Freight locos are fine on 7-9 volts as they rarely go over scale 40mph. The little shunter is happy with 5-7 volts

 

Amps - my 'hungriest' loco draws 170 milliamps pulling 12 coaches at scale 60mph. The most economical 3F 0-6-0 is about 85 milliamps with 4 coaches.

 

Battery usage - I tested the locos with 70mAh lipo batteries, 2S or 3S for big passenger.

 

Midland compound - 40 minutes with 8 coaches at 60mph

Duke of Gloucester - 20 minutes with 12 coaches  at 60mph

Jinty - 35 minutes with 7 wagons at 30mph

3F freight engine - 45 minutes with simulated 12 wagons at 35mph

Duchess of Gloucester 4-6-2  - 25 minutes with 12 coaches at 60mph

'Illustrious' Patriot 4-6-0 - 28 minutes with 9 coaches at 60mph

 

I reckon with a custom made lipo you might be able to get a 3S 700-750 mAh battery in some tenders.

 

Radio Control - The system i use seems reliable, works well and has excellent customer support. There is another system from Protocab

due for release early next year and Bachmann USA are introducing a system as well. It seems the radio side of the equation is pretty much solved, as far as basic train control is concerned.

 

How big a battery you can stuff in a loco is a different matter. With fixed formations you just put the battery in the train but it would be nice to run light engine, tootle around the shed etc etc.. How big a battery you need depend on how long you run the loco between recharges. 30 minutes woud be fine for me.

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What motors will work with the Deltang receiver/ESC units? Would I be right in assuming that the venerable XO4 is just too hairy-arsed?

Here is my ancient Hornby frame motor chassis. It is a LNER prototype no 8477 in green livery and was given to me by a friend. As I model LMS/BR London Midland it might only get an occasional outing.

 

It moves just fine with a Deltang receiver and quite happily climbs over the first Peco code 100 point frog it encounters. The running is a bit erratic at slow speed but it appears that the quartering is off and the back to backs need looking at!

 

I will not be able to check the haulage capicity, speed and power consumption until the wheels etc are sorted.

 

post-815-0-50650800-1416831081_thumb.jpg

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Hi Dave,

 

The folk I dealt with some years back, have moved on a bit. They have a far better web site, and are dealing more with end-users. There is an enquiry form http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/devis-personnalise.html(there is a useful chart of cylindrical cell dimensions on there). They will have a far bigger range than listed on the web. I'm awaiting a phone call back wrt developments with what I guess is referred to as 'prismatic batteries' - rectangular ones. Maybe at the end of it, their solution, if any, may be too expensive.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

Edited by raymw
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Hi Dave,

 

The folk I dealt with some years back, have moved on a bit. They have a far better web site, and are dealing more with end-users. There is an enquiry form http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/devis-personnalise.html(there is a useful chart of cylindrical cell dimensions on there). They will have a far bigger range than listed on the web. I'm awaiting a phone call back wrt developments with what I guess is referred to as 'prismatic batteries' - rectangular ones. Maybe at the end of it, their solution, if any, may be too expensive.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

Thanks very much. So far i have being looking at hobby batteries aimed at model aircraft enthusiasts. I also noticed that my Canon camera 750 mAh 1s battery is very compact and you could stack them 3 high. The problem is it is too wide but if the correct proprtion would fit nicely - pity!.

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