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Battery powered/Radio controlled locos


StuartM
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Hi Tony,

 

I hadn't realized your other (incorrect) post had been intended for here so I commented on it where it was.

 

To save people jumping around I said      "... it looks like your system is a bit behind the Deltang system?"

 

...R

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Hi Tony,

 

I hadn't realized your other (incorrect) post had been intended for here so I commented on it where it was.

 

To save people jumping around I said      "... it looks like your system is a bit behind the Deltang system?"

 

...R

Who cares, as long as someone brings this idea to market is the main thing

It looks like Acc+Ess Protocab are well on the way to doing that

How long before the Deltang system hits the shelves?

 

Rgds,

Stuart

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Stuart, I don't understand where this question has come from

 

The Deltang stuff is already available - how else would I have been able to convert my loco? Or are you the person who remains to be convinced that I already have it working?

 

(And my comment about Acc+Ess was tongue-in-cheek )

 

...R

 

How long before the Deltang system hits the shelves?

Rgds,
Stuart

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Stuart, I don't understand where this question has come from

 

The Deltang stuff is already available - how else would I have been able to convert my loco? Or are you the person who remains to be convinced that I already have it working?

 

(And my comment about Acc+Ess was tongue-in-cheek )

 

...R

Robin,

The trouble with text is that subtle humour can get lost in the translation

 

Secondly, yes I do remain to be convinced, It would be like me saying that I had discovered perpetual motion and then failing to produce the evidence to substantiate my claim.

I don't 'dis-believe' you, but until I see video proof that your system is up and running, I will reserve judgement. Besides it's not me you have to convince.

If we want to make BPRC locos the norm, then we have to demonstrate that it is possible to such an extent that other people want and can convert their locos; as these numbers grow, then the manufactures will start to take an interest, but this will only happen with evidence, in other words, post a video of your Deltang system in action, but please don't deride another system (in this case the Acc+Ess) which is almost ready to offer a retail product.

 

Rgds,

Stuart

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Stuart, I'm completely confused now.

 

I put a link to a short YouTube video in Post # 85 in this Topic, and, from your subsequent comment in Post # 86 I presumed you saw it.

 

When I went back to that Post just now the link wouldn't work so I have edited it. To save you going back there this is the link 

 

If you saw the video (or view it now) and don't believe it you must be assuming that I am trying to deceive the world - why would I bother?

 

...R

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Stuart, I'm completely confused now.

 

I put a link to a short YouTube video in Post # 85 in this Topic, and, from your subsequent comment in Post # 86 I presumed you saw it.

 

When I went back to that Post just now the link wouldn't work so I have edited it. To save you going back there this is the link 

 

If you saw the video (or view it now) and don't believe it you must be assuming that I am trying to deceive the world - why would I bother?

 

...R

Hi Robin,

Thanks for the video, however.......

In order for your BPRC to be taken seriously it has to be seen to be wire free beyond all doubt

unfortunately in your video the ends of the track can't be seen, so for all we know they the track is 'wired' to the controller.

I'm not saying it is, but the video does not provide satisfactory evidence to the contry.

It would be better if you were to film the loco while you hold it in mid air and then use the controller to speed up, slow down and reverse the wheels,

that way it would prove beyond doubt that your loco is indeed not being powered through the rails and is indeed a BPRC loco.

 

Rgds,

Stuart

Edited by StuartM
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Stuart,

 

You started this topic so I can't understand why you are so sceptical.

 

I haven't come across anyone else who questions my bona-fides. It's not like I was trying to demonstrate perpetual motion or magnet powered motors. And I am not the only one with a working N-Gauge BPR/C loco - there are also videos on the Deltang website.

 

Take my word for it, the loco runs perfectly well when it lies on its back with its wheels in the air.

 

...R

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Stuart,

 

You started this topic so I can't understand why you are so sceptical.

 

I haven't come across anyone else who questions my bona-fides. It's not like I was trying to demonstrate perpetual motion or magnet powered motors. And I am not the only one with a working N-Gauge BPR/C loco - there are also videos on the Deltang website.

 

Take my word for it, the loco runs perfectly well when it lies on its back with its wheels in the air.

 

...R

Great, in that case show me a video of that, and then you will have PROVED and DEMONSTRATED your work.

 

It might seem as if I'm being nit picky, but its not me you have to convince, its the rest of the hobby and if some one can question your evidence ie: is there anything connected to the track, then the demonstration fails to convince those who need convincing.

 

So why not take another video, as you have suggested of the loco on it's back or even running track free across a table top, then you will have PROVED that your system is viable,

until such time I will continue to question your results. Prove me wrong :)

Rgds,

Stuart

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Stuart, 

I'm rather tired of this.

 

You say "its not me you have to convince, its the rest of the hobby"

 

Let the "rest of the hobby" speak for themselves and stop acting as their unelected spokesperson. 

 

You are no help to the BPR/C cause if you insist on sowing doubts about other people's honest and successful work.

 

If you, yourself,  think my video is a fake tell me why you think what I have done isn't possible and then I will try to provide a convincing answer.

 

...R

 

PS it would be quite impossible for me (or you) to produce a video that could not be challenged as a fake.

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You two stop it!

You're not helping the “cause”.

 

 

What Robin has done (or purported to have done) is not Rocket science and is well proven – no offence meant – so it is easily believable. Size/space/material removal being the major considerations.

Posting a video, whilst nice proves nothing but it can easily be done to “settle things”.

 

 

Robin, have you done any pricing up/investigating of bespoke moulded batteries?

I have found that even “rich” (mass market) areas of consumer electronics shy away from this solution – mobile phones, Cameras, mobile computing, etcetera.

 

I will be in Shanghai soon so I will visit the electronics market (it's HUGE) along Beijing Rd and will be paying particular attention to battery stalls/suppliers, Speakers, PICs, comms solutions…...... :)

All at dirt cheap prices with no warranty and numerous fakes/copies/duds/miss sells/lost in translations – all the fun of the fair! :) :)

(Many stalls offer full project reverse engineering - openly!)

 

Kev.

 

 

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Stuart, 

I'm rather tired of this.

 

You say "its not me you have to convince, its the rest of the hobby"

 

Let the "rest of the hobby" speak for themselves and stop acting as their unelected spokesperson. 

 

You are no help to the BPR/C cause if you insist on sowing doubts about other people's honest and successful work.

 

If you, yourself,  think my video is a fake tell me why you think what I have done isn't possible and then I will try to provide a convincing answer.

 

 

...R

 

PS it would be quite impossible for me (or you) to produce a video that could not be challenged as a fake.

Robin,

The reason I am challenging your video is because I can't see the ends of the track, so how do I know you don't have a power supply hooked up to it, if your video had included both ends and was raised off the table so it is possible to see that there are no wires connected to the track, then you would have 'PROVED' your model is indeed BPRC

 

I don't see what your problem is

All I've asked you to do is provide a video that PROVES your model is running via battery and radio control,

e.g. running track free across the top of a table as I did in my video at the start of this thread, or as you say upside down so the wheels are free from rail.

If your loco is BPRC, then this should not be a problem.

 

As to being the unelected spokesperson for BPRC, I'm not sure about that, but I did start this thread to demonstrate what I believe to be the future of Model railways,

please feel free not to participate in this thread if you so wish.

I look forward to seeing a video of your loco running track free, otherwise I would be grateful if you left this thread as I'd rather spend my time promoting the virtues of BPRC rather than engaging in a slanging match

Rgds,

Stuart

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Hi Stuart,

 

Try this:

 

 

This is the 009 loco in the videos I posted in post 102 above. It's a Peco tram loco body kit on a standard Kato n gauge tram chassis.   It's running on a sheet of glass standing on a couple of plasic boxes on my table.  The controller is there too.  That's all there is - no big electronic box of tricks off stage or anything.   And it's all built with off-the-shelf DelTang electronics and a standard battery.

 

The future has arrived.

 

Believe it!

 

Frank

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Frank ... that's wonderful  (but how do we know you are not using electrically conducting glass; have a magnet hidden somewhere or a piece of transparent fishing line  - just joking).

 

Kev ... Sorry I have no interest in or knowledge about special batteries. I have no plans to go into production. The batteries I am using measure 7mm diameter x 30mm long and claim 80mAh capacity. None of the other sizes I have seen on a few internet shops will fit. There are thinner ones but they are too wide for N Gauge. In another loco I could fit a battery that's 7x12x30 but I haven't seen any that size. Part of the problem is the cost of mail-ordering a single cell - so I decided to standardize on the ones I have. I was originally thinking of using pairs of cells (7.2v) to avoid having to change the factory fitted 12v motors but I have decided to stick with single cells to make refueling my "fleet" easier.

 

I think you would need a very large production run to justify an unusual shape and I doubt if any model locos sell in sufficient quantities. Phones sell in their millions. It would be interesting to know if the Chinese market has other sizes of small LiPo cell that are not yet on the market here.

 

Stuart ... I like the idea of you being a spokesman for BPR/C. What I object to is your apparent simultaneous role as a spokesman for the "rest of the hobby" (your words) whoever they are.

 

I don't feel any urge to prove that my BPR/C loco is "genuine" - especially to someone whom I had expected to accept my bona-fides and welcome my efforts. I have described the simple features that make my loco work, and people are welcome to copy the idea themselves. If they have specific questions I will try to answer them. If they are not interested, that's a matter for them.

 

... R

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Hi Stuart,

 

Thanks -glad you like it.

 

DelTang units were originally developed as model aircraft controllers. They operate on 2.4GHz and each loco and controller is basically a pair of very very small computers linked by radio. It is a robust system as it has to be for aircraft control. I'm just a satisfied customer, no commercial link to them.

 

The basic system has one loco linked to one controller. You can link the controller to a different loco but it only works one at a time.

 

However the controller is a 6 or 7 channel controller and so more advanced ones can control several locos at once. There is one that controls three and I think you can get up to six in theory.

 

Batteries are aircraft radio control LiPos which are typically good for a few hours intermittent running. They are high power density and retain their charge very well. Voltage can be an issue, a single cell is 3.7v nominal, so you would think you would need several, but often a single cell is OK as there is no voltage lost in wiring, track contact, pickups etc. and also no need to run fast to get over dead spots in the track etc. Really good slow running is one of the attractions of this approach.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Frank

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Stuart, I would urge you to study the Deltang website, particularly the receivers Rx60 and Rx61, and transmitter Tx22. (You, and everyone else on this thread, will understand it far better than I do!). The latter controls 12 trains independently when each are fitted with one of the former, thanks to the selecta feature and the 2.4Ghz binding technology, if I have understood it correctly. To me, it looks brilliant, more so to see it fitted into Fallen's tiny tram engine.

 

There is a thread currently on the 3mm forum about the feasibility of RTR 3mm scale models by Hornby. Perhaps R/C should be considered from the outset for this, as British outline TT scale has no commercial history recent enough that needs to be taken into consideration. Just a thought!

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I have the Deltang Tx1m transmitter controlled by an Arduino Uno. (This is visible at the rear of my video). The transmitter can transmit 7 channels of data (which would be used for various functions such as ailerons, elevators, rudder, motor speed etc on an aircraft). In my case my receiver only needs one channel to control the speed and direction of the loco. For each receiver you can choose which channel controls the motor. That means that my transmitter can control up to 7 locos operating simultaneously. Of course my brain couldn't manage that - they would all crash - but that's not the fault of the technology.

 

It would also be possible to allocate (say) two (or more) channels to each loco so that lights could be switched on and off. That would obviously reduce the number of locos per transmitter.

 

I'm not aware of any reason why I couldn't add more transmitters to my Arduino Uno to cope with a larger fleet of locos.

 

Because my locos run on a single LiPo cell and don't draw much current I can use the smaller Deltang Rx41-d receivers.

 

I have a demo setup which uses a potentiometer connected to the Arduino to control speed and direction (centre off). You can see the white wire leading to it in my video. The Arduino Uno has connections for a max of 6 potentiometers. However my main intention is to control the trains from my PC using the Arduino as an interface to the transmitter.

 

I am also using the Arduino to control two fiddle-yard turntables, one at each end of my layout. That should be working in the next day or two. I have a Topic about it in the "Computer Control" section. I also plan to add train detection for automated running (hopefully).

 

I will be happy to provide any further details.

 

...R

Edited by Robin2
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One of the things I overlooked in the early stages of my conversion was the need for a switch between the battery and the receiver - as I can't easily open up my loco and remove the battery.

 

In the end I made my own switch from two pieces of brass tube epoxied to the frame. One piece of tube is connected to the battery and the other to the receiver. To "switch on" I insert a piece of brass rod through the 2 tubes to connect them. I hope that makes sense. The whole thing is 2.4mm in diameter by about 10mm long. It could be much smaller if I used smaller tube and shorter pieces - but I happened to have that diameter tube at the time.

 

The smallest commercial switches I have come across are these http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Miniature-Slide-Switches-6V-123404 which were pointed out to me by DavidT from Deltang.

 

The Grafar Class 101 which I am also converting has two small switches on a circuit board - I think they allowed you to select lights - and I may use one of them for the on-off switch on the Class 101 and the other for my Crab. These switches are probably bigger than the ones in the link.

 

...R

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Robin is right you do need a switch to switch the battery off as they don't like being run flat.

 

These are the ones I use:

 

http://uk.farnell.com/multicomp/mc5sed3s05m2res/switch-ip67-dpdt-on-off-on-pcb/dp/2008807

 

They are a different orientation which I find easier to fit in.

 

I use one pole to switch the battery between the radio and the charging socket which I have fitted to save getting the battery out of the loco to charge it.

 

They are SPDT or DPDT but both are the same size so I use the DPDT and use the other pole to switch the motor between the radio and the track so when the radio is switched off it is a normal DC loco.

 

Frank

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My 2 extra Deltang receivers arrived today. At my request DavidT had set the motor drive channels to 2 and 3 for me before he posted them. It then only took a few minutes each to connect the receivers to the motors (which I had prepared earlier :)) and the batteries and bind the receivers to the transmitter. Hey presto all of my fleet (3 locos) now operates by BPR/C.

 

Hooray for BPR/C    ...     and many thanks to DavidT for excellent service.

 

...R

 

PS. Frank, that's a clever idea to be able to switch the motor back to normal mode.

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Hello again Stuart and others on the forum

To answer specific questions re Acc+Ess Protocab made here:

We have selected the Android (version 4.0 and later) to run on smartphones and tablets to provide us with the sort of functions that provide for a range of driving capabilities from speed and direction through to full cab simulation. Version 4.0 provides for a number of networking features that simplifies set up/installation and security.

The initial Locomotive Control Unit (0501) has been designed for a medium to large 4mm loco or small 7mm loco with a 1amp current limit driving a motor to the full 12volts. Although we've managed to take around 30% out of the footprint during development this would still be too large for 2mm, hence my apologies for posting here in error.

The initial Protocab products will support speed and direction, with developments following to support lighting, sound and other auxiliary functions. The reduced power demands of 2mm over 4mm and certainly 7mm enables us to use a different set of components with a smaller footprint which we want to develop as soon as we can.

The Acc+Ess Protocab architecture provides for up and down scaling (both in terms of the range of scales that we will support and upscaling in the number of locos that can be controlled) from our starting position. At the other end of the scale we also have the garden railway fans asking for a solution for their 10amps and more locomotives!

At the moment we are testing the system to ensure reliability, electromagnetic compatibility (required for a commercial radio transmitting equipment) and robustness. We will be updating the website as we approach product availability, and this will cover all these development as well as the range of products and supporting products such as the component interconnections system so do please visit soon or let me know if you'd like us to email you with progress updates.



Best regards

Tony Hagon

Acc+Ess Ltd

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Tony, I have no space for trains larger than 2mm scale but I have no objection to discussion of larger scales on this Thread.

 

I Googled "acc+ess protocab" and the results were swamped by websites with the word "access". Googling "protocab" works fine. Is it too late to consider a "more unique" name instead of acc+ess?

 

I have no connection with any manufacturer and I wish you well in your endeavours along with your competitors. However I wonder if you are being too slow releasing product to the market? Deltang seem to have new products or variants on the market every few weeks.

 

...R 

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