Jump to content

Help in building somewhat accurate coach sets


br-nse-fan
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi All

 

I am in the process of sorting out my coaching stock... getting rid of extras and adding what's needed. My layout allows for me to run trains up to 5 coaches in length (hauled by a Class 50).

 

I would appreciate some input as to how best to arrange what I have into something somewhat accurate. Sets will remain together, with the exception of parcel cars, they can be moved and shunted about separately and added to 4 coach sets when needed based on traffic volumes ;)

 

I have listed what I currently own, as well as included the two items I have on order , but have not yet received. Items in (brackets) are readily available from my local retailer, and should a purchase be made, these are the easiest to obtain.

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

edit: realized it's just the MK1 B/G that needs sorting... the rest I seem to have already in 'sets'. Would it be out of place to put the RU in with the MK2 B/G's?

 

MK1:

NSE

SK, BSK, SO, BSK, BG

 

B/G

CK, RU, FK, CK, BSK, SO, SK, BCK, BSK (BG, RMB, RFO, SK, FK, CK, BCK, POS)

 

Pullman B/G

FP, FK, SK, SP (FK, KS, FP)

 

Inter-City:

SO, FK, RBR, BCK, BSK, NEA, ??? <-- I know I have 7 coaches, not sure what the last one is as I must not have written it down!

 

Blue:

BG, GUV, CCT (BG Newspapers, GUV Express Parcels, )

 

Royal Mail:

NEA, NEA, GUV

 

MK2(A):

NSE

BFK, (A) FK, (A) TSO, TSO, BSO

 

B/G

BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, (A) BFK

 

B/G InterCity

(A) BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, BFK

 

MK2D:

B/G

2 x Brake, 2 x Second, 1 x First

 

Other Stock:

ex-LNER Buffet - B/G

ex-LNER Thompson BG - Blue

ex-LMS 50' Parcel - B/G

ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue

ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue

ex-LMS GUV (short) - Blue

ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue

ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue

ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue 'Enparts'

ex-GWR Fruit D - Blue

Edited by br-nse-fan
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 6 years later...
On 03/12/2012 at 21:02, br-nse-fan said:

Hi All

 

I am in the process of sorting out my coaching stock... getting rid of extras and adding what's needed. My layout allows for me to run trains up to 5 coaches in length (hauled by a Class 50).

 

I would appreciate some input as to how best to arrange what I have into something somewhat accurate. Sets will remain together, with the exception of parcel cars, they can be moved and shunted about separately and added to 4 coach sets when needed based on traffic volumes ;)

 

I have listed what I currently own, as well as included the two items I have on order , but have not yet received. Items in (brackets) are readily available from my local retailer, and should a purchase be made, these are the easiest to obtain.

 

Many thanks in advance!

 

edit: realized it's just the MK1 B/G that needs sorting... the rest I seem to have already in 'sets'. Would it be out of place to put the RU in with the MK2 B/G's?

 

MK1:

NSE

SK, BSK, SO, BSK, BG

 

B/G

CK, RU, FK, CK, BSK, SO, SK, BCK, BSK (BG, RMB, RFO, SK, FK, CK, BCK, POS)

 

Pullman B/G

FP, FK, SK, SP (FK, KS, FP)

 

Inter-City:

SO, FK, RBR, BCK, BSK, NEA, ??? <-- I know I have 7 coaches, not sure what the last one is as I must not have written it down!

 

Blue:

BG, GUV, CCT (BG Newspapers, GUV Express Parcels, )

 

Royal Mail:

NEA, NEA, GUV

 

MK2(A):

NSE

BFK, (A) FK, (A) TSO, TSO, BSO

 

B/G

BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, (A) BFK

 

B/G InterCity

(A) BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, BFK

 

MK2D:

B/G

2 x Brake, 2 x Second, 1 x First

 

Other Stock:

ex-LNER Buffet - B/G

ex-LNER Thompson BG - Blue

ex-LMS 50' Parcel - B/G

ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue

ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue

ex-LMS GUV (short) - Blue

ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue

ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue

ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue 'Enparts'

ex-GWR Fruit D - Blue

What did you decide on in the end?

im just looking at sorting out some coaches too

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

For what it's worth, I recall catching a train from Durham to Newcastle one Saturday morning c.1982-83 that comprised a classic 'train set' consist of  BSK,CO, RMB and BG  - where it originated from I've no idea.

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 19/06/2019 at 20:23, CKPR said:

For what it's worth, I recall catching a train from Durham to Newcastle one Saturday morning c.1982-83 that comprised a classic 'train set' consist of  BSK,CO, RMB and BG  - where it originated from I've no idea.

Run that on a layout and see what was said!

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I also run loco plus five and 1980s.

 

I always think a full brake looks over the top on a five coach train so avoid where I can. Maximise seats for the passengers!

 

Ignoring all the abbreviations of bskcfoso etc (!) I run one first class coach next to the loco followed by a buffet, two standard class and a standard part brake. 

 

Alternatively starting from next to the loco I run three standard class a buffet and a first part brake. 

 

I mix mk1 and early non air con mk2s but never later mk2s. 

 

Mk3 and mk4 I keep mutually exclusive except if I run a mk1 BG with the mk3s.

 

If running a fixed set ie hst Class 90 or 91 I run one first a buffet and two standard class with the dummy/DVT at the other end. I may use a BG with the 90 as they didn’t always run with DVTs.  I tolerate the inaccuracy of a mk4 DVT with mk3 coaches as I cannot afford the mk3 offering! 

 

Another exception i use is running a mk1 buffet with later stock. 

 

Not always prototypical but I think allows a believable consist that retains the essence of reality. 

 

Obviously the above relates to intercity style trains only. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

In the early 80s, there were still plenty of short loco-hauled trains. And then Gordon Pettitt took over at Provincial and they got replaced by 156s and 158s.

 

The problem with running short InterCity trains is that they  are unprototypical. Above a certain speed (75mph?), there had to be at least seven coaches to provide enough braking power.

 

But if space on the model does not allow this, five is not a bad compromise.

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

There were still plenty of short loco-hauled trains well into the late 1980s - the problems with doors, brakes and engines associated with the introduction of the Pacers and Sprinters saw to that!

 

A lot of modellers go for a FK or FO to provide first class accomodation when on a lot of shorter trains (i.e. four or five coaches) and CK or BFK would be more appropriate.

 

If trying to represent a local and mainline/Intercity service in five coaches or less then I'd probably go for:

Local: CK SK BSK or SK CK BSK

Intercity: BFK buffet SO SO SO SO or FO buffet SO SO SO BSO

 

Fortunately there were plenty of short trains that can be modelled accuratly; Many North Wales trains ran to four or five coaches as were many of the Greater Manchester/Lancashire Club trains. Several of the regional TPO trains were also quite short. The Huddersfield to Workington train was usualy a POS with two or three BG as was the one serving Holyhead. There was a Manchester to Cardiff TPO that ran BSK SK POS followed by a number of BG or GUV that varied in number depending on traffic.

 

Steven B.

 

 

 

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 26/07/2019 at 15:07, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

But if space on the model does not allow this, five is not a bad compromise.

I recall an article by Cyril Freezer in the RM in 1977 on 'modern image' modelling in which he suggested the very same.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of us have to compromise owing to space limitations when modelling.  Even with a 34-metre circuit on my previous layout which could readily accommodate a double-headed 16-coach train the stations were shorter than ideal holding seven and three coaches respectively.  Careful stopping would allow nine or four coaches to have at least one door platformed which would not happen today!

 

The problems arise when we try to include everything that a prototypical train might.  Two classes of accommodation, brake van, possibly a catering vehicle, parcel van or even sleeping cars.  

 

It would be a reasonable compromise with Mk1 stock (referring back to the 7-year old OP) to have TSO-CK-BSK-TSO-TSO on the Eastern and Western Regions where open stock was generally more common.  Substitute SK for the London Midland or Scottish regions.  If one wanted a van then SK-CK-BSK-SK-GUV works with a non-gangwayed version or simply replace a TSO with a BG from the first rake.  It wasn't unknown to find a BG amidships particularly in the Scottish Highlands where BSOT-CK-BG-SK-SK would be plausible though a BSOT has not yet been released commercially.  Instead perhaps CK-RMB-BG-SK-SK would allow service of refreshments on Far North and West Highland trains.  Cardiff - Portsmouth trains could often be seen formed SK-CK-BG or BSK-CK-SK and before withdrawal of catering from these they included an RMB as well.

 

Plenty of scope there to make use of five-coach rakes and have them look acceptably representative.

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 27/07/2019 at 22:30, CKPR said:

I recall an article by Cyril Freezer in the RM in 1977 on 'modern image' modelling in which he suggested the very same.

 

So do I . That article pushed me into modern image...

 

Cyril's tack was that there were no Mk2 TSOs so... BG/BSO/FO/RMB/BSO.

 

A bit unsatisfactory so my teenage layout actually ended up with a pair of Hornby Mk2A BSKs (really BFK) + Airfix FO + Triang RMB + Hornby Mk2A BSK.  (Seriously underweight in second class seats) ...  Swap out the middle two for a Lima Mk1 TSO to get a local set..

 

Meanwhile in the real world, in 1984 Transpennine South were running 4 car sets Manchester-Hull/Cleethorpes, a mixture of Mk1 + Mk2Z/A    , with a BSK or BSO in the middle, a Mk1 CK providing the first class, and Mk2 TSOs.

Cleethorpes /Newark trains were 4 car sets of Mk1s with no first class and some SKs . A couple of years later the Hazel Grove chord was open, Transpennine South ran on to Liverpool via Stockport/CLC , and sets were strengthened to 5 coaches. The extra coaches /sets came from breaking up the Newark /Cleethorpes sets and that service reverting to 114s , so the amount of Mk2 stock in Transpennine South sets reduced

 

Basically in a 5 car rake you need one brake - and NOT a full brake - and one coach with some first class accommodation. The rest is second class. That could mean a Mk2a BFK , or a BSO + Mk1 CK...

 

The only refreshment facilities you'd get would be a micro-buffet at most - and even then only on routes like the West Highland or the Far North

 

If you are running a loco-hauled substitute for a DMU   (an easily-overlooked feature of the 1980s) then you need 2-3 coaches, including 1 brake , and maybe including first class accommodation 

 

I currently run Mk1 BCK + Mk2 TSO as a loco-hauled substitute set though BCKs were pretty rare by then . A Mk2 BFK + Mk1 SK might be an alternative, as might Mk1 BSK + CK.... 

 

Anything InterCity should be kept to exclusively Mk2 - maybe a mix of aircon/non-aircon

 

 And parcels should be restricted to separate parcels trains

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

So do I . That article pushed me into modern image...

 

Cyril's tack was that there were no Mk2 TSOs so... BG/BSO/FO/RMB/BSO.

 

A bit unsatisfactory so my teenage layout actually ended up with a pair of Hornby Mk2A BSKs (really BFK) + Airfix FO + Triang RMB + Hornby Mk2A BSK.  (Seriously underweight in second class seats) ...  Swap out the middle two for a Lima Mk1 TSO to get a local set..

 

Meanwhile in the real world, in 1984 Transpennine South were running 4 car sets Manchester-Hull/Cleethorpes, a mixture of Mk1 + Mk2Z/A    , with a BSK or BSO in the middle, a Mk1 CK providing the first class, and Mk2 TSOs.

Cleethorpes /Newark trains were 4 car sets of Mk1s with no first class and some SKs . A couple of years later the Hazel Grove chord was open, Transpennine South ran on to Liverpool via Stockport/CLC , and sets were strengthened to 5 coaches. The extra coaches /sets came from breaking up the Newark /Cleethorpes sets and that service reverting to 114s , so the amount of Mk2 stock in Transpennine South sets reduced

 

Basically in a 5 car rake you need one brake - and NOT a full brake - and one coach with some first class accommodation. The rest is second class. That could mean a Mk2a BFK , or a BSO + Mk1 CK...

 

The only refreshment facilities you'd get would be a micro-buffet at most - and even then only on routes like the West Highland or the Far North

 

If you are running a loco-hauled substitute for a DMU   (an easily-overlooked feature of the 1980s) then you need 2-3 coaches, including 1 brake , and maybe including first class accommodation 

 

I currently run Mk1 BCK + Mk2 TSO as a loco-hauled substitute set though BCKs were pretty rare by then . A Mk2 BFK + Mk1 SK might be an alternative, as might Mk1 BSK + CK.... 

 

Anything InterCity should be kept to exclusively Mk2 - maybe a mix of aircon/non-aircon

 

 And parcels should be restricted to separate parcels trains

 

Is aircon/ non-aircon mixing of mk2s rare? Showing my ignorance I thought that aircon worked through the train so having a non-aircon coach breaking up the rake would stop the others from being linked up!!?? I have never really thought about it beyond that :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ianmacc said:

 

Is aircon/ non-aircon mixing of mk2s rare? Showing my ignorance I thought that aircon worked through the train so having a non-aircon coach breaking up the rake would stop the others from being linked up!!?? I have never really thought about it beyond that :)

 

I believe it was not that uncommon on main lines in the early 70s as Mk2D-F stock was introduced.

 

To the best of my knowledge the aircon is self-contained to the coach itself. Certainly there was no problem inserting a Mk1 catering vehicle into an aircon rake - remember no Mk2 catering vehicles were built. 

 

A more serious restriction is that vacuum braked stock can't work with air-braked. There was quite an extensive programme of dual-braking Mk1s, but only the first batch of Mk2s (later designated Mk2Z) were vacuum-brakes, so only these could run with vacuum-only Mk1s

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

I believe it was not that uncommon on main lines in the early 70s as Mk2D-F stock was introduced.

 

To the best of my knowledge the aircon is self-contained to the coach itself. Certainly there was no problem inserting a Mk1 catering vehicle into an aircon rake - remember no Mk2 catering vehicles were built. 

 

A more serious restriction is that vacuum braked stock can't work with air-braked. There was quite an extensive programme of dual-braking Mk1s, but only the first batch of Mk2s (later designated Mk2Z) were vacuum-brakes, so only these could run with vacuum-only Mk1s

 

Thanks for that. Opens up more choices for my rakes. The braking compatibility is less straightforward. Are there any telltales to know whether a model is of a vacuum or air braked example? 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, ianmacc said:

 

Thanks for that. Opens up more choices for my rakes. The braking compatibility is less straightforward. Are there any telltales to know whether a model is of a vacuum or air braked example? 

As far as I recall it was often indicated in relevant spotters books. A Platform 5 combined volume from the early 90s might help

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, ianmacc said:

 

Thanks for that. Opens up more choices for my rakes. The braking compatibility is less straightforward. Are there any telltales to know whether a model is of a vacuum or air braked example? 

Look at the underframe detailing, and then compare to the photos and notes on Jim S-W's P4 New Street site

 

Vacuum brake cylinders resemble a drum mounted circle side to the underframe. An air-brake cylinder is more baked-bean can in proportions and mounted along the line of the coach.

 

Depending on the era you're modelling you may not need to worry about mixing Mk2z with air brake only vehicles as many were dual braked in the '70s.

 

Steven B

 

 

Edited by Steven B
  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Here's an interesting specimen of what could happen in  the right places in the mid 80s:

Oddball BR coaches

 

The item of interest is right at the bottom of the page , this train http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Coaches/UK4029.jpg

 

Quote

Here 47593 leads a Mk.1 BG, Mk.2f TSO, Mk.2f TSO, Mk.2c TSO, Mk.1 RU(B), Mk.3 FO, Mk.2a TSO and a Mk.2f TSO passing Faskally, just north of Pitlochry.

 

The Mk3 is a bit of a surprise but otherwise nothing too outrageous. I suspect there may have been another brake vehicle unseen at the tail of the train 

Edited by Ravenser
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
On 14/08/2019 at 12:47, Steven B said:

Look at the underframe detailing, and then compare to the photos and notes on Jim S-W's P4 New Street site

 

Vacuum brake cylinders resemble a drum mounted circle side to the underframe. An air-brake cylinder is more baked-bean can in proportions and mounted along the line of the coach.

 

Depending on the era you're modelling you may not need to worry about mixing Mk2z with air brake only vehicles as many were dual braked in the '70s.

 

Steven B

 

 

No MK2z were dual braked, however several of these mk2s were air braked (disc brake as opposed to tread brake) in 1970 for the Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls. The south Pennine working when first introduced in May 84 were MK2 not MK1 or a mix, the Mk1s worked on the Hull Lancaster services, it was only in late 86 that a mix of Mk1 and 2 could be seen and this was due withdrawal of some of the Mk2s.

 

Air and vac braked vehicles could be seen in the same rake of vehicles when going to from works or inter depot transfers. Which ever was in the majority would be the brake in use and would have a brake van attached to the rear.

 

 

Al Taylor.

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On ‎23‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 14:09, Ravenser said:

The item of interest is right at the bottom of the page , this train http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Coaches/UK4029.jpg

 

The Mk3 is a bit of a surprise but otherwise nothing too outrageous. I suspect there may have been another brake vehicle unseen at the tail of the train 

 

For a period a mix like that was common on The Clansman Euston-Inverness train.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 05/11/2019 at 23:47, 45125 said:

No MK2z were dual braked, however several of these mk2s were air braked (disc brake as opposed to tread brake) in 1970 for the Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls. The south Pennine working when first introduced in May 84 were MK2 not MK1 or a mix, the Mk1s worked on the Hull Lancaster services, it was only in late 86 that a mix of Mk1 and 2 could be seen and this was due withdrawal of some of the Mk2s.

 

Air and vac braked vehicles could be seen in the same rake of vehicles when going to from works or inter depot transfers. Which ever was in the majority would be the brake in use and would have a brake van attached to the rear.

 

 

Al Taylor.

 

At that point Cleethorpes - Lincoln-Newark went back from 31 + 4 Mk1s to 114s , providing the Mk1 vehicles for Transpennine South...

Link to post
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

At that point Cleethorpes - Lincoln-Newark went back from 31 + 4 Mk1s to 114s , providing the Mk1 vehicles for Transpennine South...

Not quite, the mk1s were actually for the service from Hull to Lancaster with trips to Leeds and York. The vehicles came from a variety of ER depots with only one coming from LN.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I have been researching air con sets and found that few are uniform.

 

A set with

2C BSO

2D TSOT BFK

2E TSOs

2F FOs

 

A set with

GUV

2F/E/D TSOs coupled next to each other

2D and 2A BFK

More 2EF TSO

2E FO

1 RB(R)

 

ER Set with a mix including 2A BSOs and the Airfix TSO

 

On the Western Region 2C BSOs were normally on Aircon sets

 

Seen 2B running with 2E and the Lima RB as well, I laughed at that one!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...