br-nse-fan Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) Hi All I am in the process of sorting out my coaching stock... getting rid of extras and adding what's needed. My layout allows for me to run trains up to 5 coaches in length (hauled by a Class 50). I would appreciate some input as to how best to arrange what I have into something somewhat accurate. Sets will remain together, with the exception of parcel cars, they can be moved and shunted about separately and added to 4 coach sets when needed based on traffic volumes I have listed what I currently own, as well as included the two items I have on order , but have not yet received. Items in (brackets) are readily available from my local retailer, and should a purchase be made, these are the easiest to obtain. Many thanks in advance! edit: realized it's just the MK1 B/G that needs sorting... the rest I seem to have already in 'sets'. Would it be out of place to put the RU in with the MK2 B/G's? MK1: NSE SK, BSK, SO, BSK, BG B/G CK, RU, FK, CK, BSK, SO, SK, BCK, BSK (BG, RMB, RFO, SK, FK, CK, BCK, POS) Pullman B/G FP, FK, SK, SP (FK, KS, FP) Inter-City: SO, FK, RBR, BCK, BSK, NEA, ??? <-- I know I have 7 coaches, not sure what the last one is as I must not have written it down! Blue: BG, GUV, CCT (BG Newspapers, GUV Express Parcels, ) Royal Mail: NEA, NEA, GUV MK2(A): NSE BFK, (A) FK, (A) TSO, TSO, BSO B/G BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, (A) BFK B/G InterCity (A) BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, BFK MK2D: B/G 2 x Brake, 2 x Second, 1 x First Other Stock: ex-LNER Buffet - B/G ex-LNER Thompson BG - Blue ex-LMS 50' Parcel - B/G ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue ex-LMS GUV (short) - Blue ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue 'Enparts' ex-GWR Fruit D - Blue Edited December 3, 2012 by br-nse-fan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Similar topics I have found that may help http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52281-carriage-formations/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49528-mk2-coaches-numbering-and-working-patterns/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52794-1980s-west-country-train-formations/page__fromsearch__1 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47195-mk2-coach-numbers-on-the-western-region-in-the-80s/page__fromsearch__1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shed Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 On 03/12/2012 at 21:02, br-nse-fan said: Hi All I am in the process of sorting out my coaching stock... getting rid of extras and adding what's needed. My layout allows for me to run trains up to 5 coaches in length (hauled by a Class 50). I would appreciate some input as to how best to arrange what I have into something somewhat accurate. Sets will remain together, with the exception of parcel cars, they can be moved and shunted about separately and added to 4 coach sets when needed based on traffic volumes I have listed what I currently own, as well as included the two items I have on order , but have not yet received. Items in (brackets) are readily available from my local retailer, and should a purchase be made, these are the easiest to obtain. Many thanks in advance! edit: realized it's just the MK1 B/G that needs sorting... the rest I seem to have already in 'sets'. Would it be out of place to put the RU in with the MK2 B/G's? MK1: NSE SK, BSK, SO, BSK, BG B/G CK, RU, FK, CK, BSK, SO, SK, BCK, BSK (BG, RMB, RFO, SK, FK, CK, BCK, POS) Pullman B/G FP, FK, SK, SP (FK, KS, FP) Inter-City: SO, FK, RBR, BCK, BSK, NEA, ??? <-- I know I have 7 coaches, not sure what the last one is as I must not have written it down! Blue: BG, GUV, CCT (BG Newspapers, GUV Express Parcels, ) Royal Mail: NEA, NEA, GUV MK2(A): NSE BFK, (A) FK, (A) TSO, TSO, BSO B/G BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, (A) BFK B/G InterCity (A) BSO, (A) TSO, TSO, BFK MK2D: B/G 2 x Brake, 2 x Second, 1 x First Other Stock: ex-LNER Buffet - B/G ex-LNER Thompson BG - Blue ex-LMS 50' Parcel - B/G ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue ex-LMS 50' Parcel - Blue ex-LMS GUV (short) - Blue ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue ex-GWR Siphon G - Blue 'Enparts' ex-GWR Fruit D - Blue What did you decide on in the end? im just looking at sorting out some coaches too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 For what it's worth, I recall catching a train from Durham to Newcastle one Saturday morning c.1982-83 that comprised a classic 'train set' consist of BSK,CO, RMB and BG - where it originated from I've no idea. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 On 19/06/2019 at 20:23, CKPR said: For what it's worth, I recall catching a train from Durham to Newcastle one Saturday morning c.1982-83 that comprised a classic 'train set' consist of BSK,CO, RMB and BG - where it originated from I've no idea. Run that on a layout and see what was said! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmacc Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 I also run loco plus five and 1980s. I always think a full brake looks over the top on a five coach train so avoid where I can. Maximise seats for the passengers! Ignoring all the abbreviations of bskcfoso etc (!) I run one first class coach next to the loco followed by a buffet, two standard class and a standard part brake. Alternatively starting from next to the loco I run three standard class a buffet and a first part brake. I mix mk1 and early non air con mk2s but never later mk2s. Mk3 and mk4 I keep mutually exclusive except if I run a mk1 BG with the mk3s. If running a fixed set ie hst Class 90 or 91 I run one first a buffet and two standard class with the dummy/DVT at the other end. I may use a BG with the 90 as they didn’t always run with DVTs. I tolerate the inaccuracy of a mk4 DVT with mk3 coaches as I cannot afford the mk3 offering! Another exception i use is running a mk1 buffet with later stock. Not always prototypical but I think allows a believable consist that retains the essence of reality. Obviously the above relates to intercity style trains only. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted July 26, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 26, 2019 In the early 80s, there were still plenty of short loco-hauled trains. And then Gordon Pettitt took over at Provincial and they got replaced by 156s and 158s. The problem with running short InterCity trains is that they are unprototypical. Above a certain speed (75mph?), there had to be at least seven coaches to provide enough braking power. But if space on the model does not allow this, five is not a bad compromise. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted July 26, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 26, 2019 There were still plenty of short loco-hauled trains well into the late 1980s - the problems with doors, brakes and engines associated with the introduction of the Pacers and Sprinters saw to that! A lot of modellers go for a FK or FO to provide first class accomodation when on a lot of shorter trains (i.e. four or five coaches) and CK or BFK would be more appropriate. If trying to represent a local and mainline/Intercity service in five coaches or less then I'd probably go for: Local: CK SK BSK or SK CK BSK Intercity: BFK buffet SO SO SO SO or FO buffet SO SO SO BSO Fortunately there were plenty of short trains that can be modelled accuratly; Many North Wales trains ran to four or five coaches as were many of the Greater Manchester/Lancashire Club trains. Several of the regional TPO trains were also quite short. The Huddersfield to Workington train was usualy a POS with two or three BG as was the one serving Holyhead. There was a Manchester to Cardiff TPO that ran BSK SK POS followed by a number of BG or GUV that varied in number depending on traffic. Steven B. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKPR Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 On 26/07/2019 at 15:07, Joseph_Pestell said: But if space on the model does not allow this, five is not a bad compromise. I recall an article by Cyril Freezer in the RM in 1977 on 'modern image' modelling in which he suggested the very same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted July 27, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2019 Most of us have to compromise owing to space limitations when modelling. Even with a 34-metre circuit on my previous layout which could readily accommodate a double-headed 16-coach train the stations were shorter than ideal holding seven and three coaches respectively. Careful stopping would allow nine or four coaches to have at least one door platformed which would not happen today! The problems arise when we try to include everything that a prototypical train might. Two classes of accommodation, brake van, possibly a catering vehicle, parcel van or even sleeping cars. It would be a reasonable compromise with Mk1 stock (referring back to the 7-year old OP) to have TSO-CK-BSK-TSO-TSO on the Eastern and Western Regions where open stock was generally more common. Substitute SK for the London Midland or Scottish regions. If one wanted a van then SK-CK-BSK-SK-GUV works with a non-gangwayed version or simply replace a TSO with a BG from the first rake. It wasn't unknown to find a BG amidships particularly in the Scottish Highlands where BSOT-CK-BG-SK-SK would be plausible though a BSOT has not yet been released commercially. Instead perhaps CK-RMB-BG-SK-SK would allow service of refreshments on Far North and West Highland trains. Cardiff - Portsmouth trains could often be seen formed SK-CK-BG or BSK-CK-SK and before withdrawal of catering from these they included an RMB as well. Plenty of scope there to make use of five-coach rakes and have them look acceptably representative. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 On 27/07/2019 at 22:30, CKPR said: I recall an article by Cyril Freezer in the RM in 1977 on 'modern image' modelling in which he suggested the very same. So do I . That article pushed me into modern image... Cyril's tack was that there were no Mk2 TSOs so... BG/BSO/FO/RMB/BSO. A bit unsatisfactory so my teenage layout actually ended up with a pair of Hornby Mk2A BSKs (really BFK) + Airfix FO + Triang RMB + Hornby Mk2A BSK. (Seriously underweight in second class seats) ... Swap out the middle two for a Lima Mk1 TSO to get a local set.. Meanwhile in the real world, in 1984 Transpennine South were running 4 car sets Manchester-Hull/Cleethorpes, a mixture of Mk1 + Mk2Z/A , with a BSK or BSO in the middle, a Mk1 CK providing the first class, and Mk2 TSOs. Cleethorpes /Newark trains were 4 car sets of Mk1s with no first class and some SKs . A couple of years later the Hazel Grove chord was open, Transpennine South ran on to Liverpool via Stockport/CLC , and sets were strengthened to 5 coaches. The extra coaches /sets came from breaking up the Newark /Cleethorpes sets and that service reverting to 114s , so the amount of Mk2 stock in Transpennine South sets reduced Basically in a 5 car rake you need one brake - and NOT a full brake - and one coach with some first class accommodation. The rest is second class. That could mean a Mk2a BFK , or a BSO + Mk1 CK... The only refreshment facilities you'd get would be a micro-buffet at most - and even then only on routes like the West Highland or the Far North If you are running a loco-hauled substitute for a DMU (an easily-overlooked feature of the 1980s) then you need 2-3 coaches, including 1 brake , and maybe including first class accommodation I currently run Mk1 BCK + Mk2 TSO as a loco-hauled substitute set though BCKs were pretty rare by then . A Mk2 BFK + Mk1 SK might be an alternative, as might Mk1 BSK + CK.... Anything InterCity should be kept to exclusively Mk2 - maybe a mix of aircon/non-aircon And parcels should be restricted to separate parcels trains 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmacc Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 7 hours ago, Ravenser said: So do I . That article pushed me into modern image... Cyril's tack was that there were no Mk2 TSOs so... BG/BSO/FO/RMB/BSO. A bit unsatisfactory so my teenage layout actually ended up with a pair of Hornby Mk2A BSKs (really BFK) + Airfix FO + Triang RMB + Hornby Mk2A BSK. (Seriously underweight in second class seats) ... Swap out the middle two for a Lima Mk1 TSO to get a local set.. Meanwhile in the real world, in 1984 Transpennine South were running 4 car sets Manchester-Hull/Cleethorpes, a mixture of Mk1 + Mk2Z/A , with a BSK or BSO in the middle, a Mk1 CK providing the first class, and Mk2 TSOs. Cleethorpes /Newark trains were 4 car sets of Mk1s with no first class and some SKs . A couple of years later the Hazel Grove chord was open, Transpennine South ran on to Liverpool via Stockport/CLC , and sets were strengthened to 5 coaches. The extra coaches /sets came from breaking up the Newark /Cleethorpes sets and that service reverting to 114s , so the amount of Mk2 stock in Transpennine South sets reduced Basically in a 5 car rake you need one brake - and NOT a full brake - and one coach with some first class accommodation. The rest is second class. That could mean a Mk2a BFK , or a BSO + Mk1 CK... The only refreshment facilities you'd get would be a micro-buffet at most - and even then only on routes like the West Highland or the Far North If you are running a loco-hauled substitute for a DMU (an easily-overlooked feature of the 1980s) then you need 2-3 coaches, including 1 brake , and maybe including first class accommodation I currently run Mk1 BCK + Mk2 TSO as a loco-hauled substitute set though BCKs were pretty rare by then . A Mk2 BFK + Mk1 SK might be an alternative, as might Mk1 BSK + CK.... Anything InterCity should be kept to exclusively Mk2 - maybe a mix of aircon/non-aircon And parcels should be restricted to separate parcels trains Is aircon/ non-aircon mixing of mk2s rare? Showing my ignorance I thought that aircon worked through the train so having a non-aircon coach breaking up the rake would stop the others from being linked up!!?? I have never really thought about it beyond that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 2 hours ago, ianmacc said: Is aircon/ non-aircon mixing of mk2s rare? Showing my ignorance I thought that aircon worked through the train so having a non-aircon coach breaking up the rake would stop the others from being linked up!!?? I have never really thought about it beyond that I believe it was not that uncommon on main lines in the early 70s as Mk2D-F stock was introduced. To the best of my knowledge the aircon is self-contained to the coach itself. Certainly there was no problem inserting a Mk1 catering vehicle into an aircon rake - remember no Mk2 catering vehicles were built. A more serious restriction is that vacuum braked stock can't work with air-braked. There was quite an extensive programme of dual-braking Mk1s, but only the first batch of Mk2s (later designated Mk2Z) were vacuum-brakes, so only these could run with vacuum-only Mk1s 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmacc Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 14 hours ago, Ravenser said: I believe it was not that uncommon on main lines in the early 70s as Mk2D-F stock was introduced. To the best of my knowledge the aircon is self-contained to the coach itself. Certainly there was no problem inserting a Mk1 catering vehicle into an aircon rake - remember no Mk2 catering vehicles were built. A more serious restriction is that vacuum braked stock can't work with air-braked. There was quite an extensive programme of dual-braking Mk1s, but only the first batch of Mk2s (later designated Mk2Z) were vacuum-brakes, so only these could run with vacuum-only Mk1s Thanks for that. Opens up more choices for my rakes. The braking compatibility is less straightforward. Are there any telltales to know whether a model is of a vacuum or air braked example? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, ianmacc said: Thanks for that. Opens up more choices for my rakes. The braking compatibility is less straightforward. Are there any telltales to know whether a model is of a vacuum or air braked example? As far as I recall it was often indicated in relevant spotters books. A Platform 5 combined volume from the early 90s might help 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted August 14, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, ianmacc said: Thanks for that. Opens up more choices for my rakes. The braking compatibility is less straightforward. Are there any telltales to know whether a model is of a vacuum or air braked example? Look at the underframe detailing, and then compare to the photos and notes on Jim S-W's P4 New Street site Vacuum brake cylinders resemble a drum mounted circle side to the underframe. An air-brake cylinder is more baked-bean can in proportions and mounted along the line of the coach. Depending on the era you're modelling you may not need to worry about mixing Mk2z with air brake only vehicles as many were dual braked in the '70s. Steven B Edited August 14, 2019 by Steven B 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmacc Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Guess that’s my next venture into the loft accounted for then! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) Here's an interesting specimen of what could happen in the right places in the mid 80s: Oddball BR coaches The item of interest is right at the bottom of the page , this train http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Coaches/UK4029.jpg Quote Here 47593 leads a Mk.1 BG, Mk.2f TSO, Mk.2f TSO, Mk.2c TSO, Mk.1 RU(B), Mk.3 FO, Mk.2a TSO and a Mk.2f TSO passing Faskally, just north of Pitlochry. The Mk3 is a bit of a surprise but otherwise nothing too outrageous. I suspect there may have been another brake vehicle unseen at the tail of the train Edited August 23, 2019 by Ravenser 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 On 14/08/2019 at 12:47, Steven B said: Look at the underframe detailing, and then compare to the photos and notes on Jim S-W's P4 New Street site Vacuum brake cylinders resemble a drum mounted circle side to the underframe. An air-brake cylinder is more baked-bean can in proportions and mounted along the line of the coach. Depending on the era you're modelling you may not need to worry about mixing Mk2z with air brake only vehicles as many were dual braked in the '70s. Steven B No MK2z were dual braked, however several of these mk2s were air braked (disc brake as opposed to tread brake) in 1970 for the Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls. The south Pennine working when first introduced in May 84 were MK2 not MK1 or a mix, the Mk1s worked on the Hull Lancaster services, it was only in late 86 that a mix of Mk1 and 2 could be seen and this was due withdrawal of some of the Mk2s. Air and vac braked vehicles could be seen in the same rake of vehicles when going to from works or inter depot transfers. Which ever was in the majority would be the brake in use and would have a brake van attached to the rear. Al Taylor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted November 27, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2019 On 23/08/2019 at 14:09, Ravenser said: The item of interest is right at the bottom of the page , this train http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Coaches/UK4029.jpg The Mk3 is a bit of a surprise but otherwise nothing too outrageous. I suspect there may have been another brake vehicle unseen at the tail of the train For a period a mix like that was common on The Clansman Euston-Inverness train. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 On 05/11/2019 at 23:47, 45125 said: No MK2z were dual braked, however several of these mk2s were air braked (disc brake as opposed to tread brake) in 1970 for the Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls. The south Pennine working when first introduced in May 84 were MK2 not MK1 or a mix, the Mk1s worked on the Hull Lancaster services, it was only in late 86 that a mix of Mk1 and 2 could be seen and this was due withdrawal of some of the Mk2s. Air and vac braked vehicles could be seen in the same rake of vehicles when going to from works or inter depot transfers. Which ever was in the majority would be the brake in use and would have a brake van attached to the rear. Al Taylor. At that point Cleethorpes - Lincoln-Newark went back from 31 + 4 Mk1s to 114s , providing the Mk1 vehicles for Transpennine South... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 25 minutes ago, Ravenser said: At that point Cleethorpes - Lincoln-Newark went back from 31 + 4 Mk1s to 114s , providing the Mk1 vehicles for Transpennine South... Not quite, the mk1s were actually for the service from Hull to Lancaster with trips to Leeds and York. The vehicles came from a variety of ER depots with only one coming from LN. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 Mk1s appeared in the Transpennine sets at the same timetable that 114s replaced 31` + 4 on the Cleethorpes /Newark. Exactly how the shuffle worked I can't comment , but those 2 changes were simultaneous (I was there at the time) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2020 I have been researching air con sets and found that few are uniform. A set with 2C BSO 2D TSOT BFK 2E TSOs 2F FOs A set with GUV 2F/E/D TSOs coupled next to each other 2D and 2A BFK More 2EF TSO 2E FO 1 RB(R) ER Set with a mix including 2A BSOs and the Airfix TSO On the Western Region 2C BSOs were normally on Aircon sets Seen 2B running with 2E and the Lima RB as well, I laughed at that one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 from memory in the late 70's/early 80's the Cardiff - Portsmouths generally loaded to 5, the brake was in the middle and sometimes it would be a full brake 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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