Accident on a level crossing at Finningley, near Doncaster.

[roythebus]

Best wait for the RAIB report before we speculate on blame.

 

Fortunately the police, bot h BTP and the "real" police seem to take level crossing incidents with a bit more fervour than they used to. Here on the Romney Marsh we have a plethora of crossings, both on NR and the KESR and RHDR and as we are only too aware there's been fatalities involving loco crews in the last few years.

 

Certainly on the RHDR the local police DO prosecute instances of drivers ignoring crossing lights.

[beast66606]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-20606244

 

The Labour MP for Bassetlaw John Mann, who represents the area, said: "It's a scandal that every time an accident like this happens demands are made this must never happen again.

"But here we are again today. When will this stop? When will action be taken to make our level crossings safe, when will this receive the priority that it deserves?"

The RMT union's general secretary Bob Crow said: "There is no need for these barriers anymore.

"There should be a clear programme by Network Rail now, and the government should be fully behind them, that we are going to eliminate barriers altogether."

Tony Miles, from Modern Railways Magazine, said level crossings posed major safety issues.

"In the last full year for which there are figures, there were 3,200 incidents where drivers had acted dangerously or had taken risks or perhaps not obeyed the signals or lights or barriers," he said.

 

Words fail me, typical political cr@p and Crow showing his understanding of the challenges in making crossings safer, allowing for peoples inability to follow simple rules of the road, red light = stop*nothing again

 

* Note - I'm not saying this happened at this incident, but generally that is what happens

[Grovenor]

Perhaps we could have similar "demands" made when road accidents happen due to non observance of the highway code, then the MPs will have an even bigger "Scandal" to worry about!

And maybe# someone will find a way to change human nature so that such disobedience can be eliminated.

Keith

#Perhaps when pigs start to fly.

[Dagworth]

Very sad to hear that the child died, and combined with yesterday's death of a contractor on the track it all adds up as a reminder of just how dangerous railways can be even to those who are meant to be there.

 

As for the level crossing safety issue the last line of Dave's quote says it all.

"In the last full year for which there are figures, there were 3,200 incidents where drivers had acted dangerously or had taken risks or perhaps not obeyed the signals or lights or barriers"

 

Andi

[JeffP]

I watched the local news on TV last night, and, of course, this was top story.

I was annoyed at the ITV slant, which insisted in repeating that a train had "ploughed into a car", and also featured an interview with a local women who said, "the barriers are down far too long anyway...."

 

In HER opinion?

[MichaelW]

As for the level crossing safety issue the last line of Dave's quote says it all.

"In the last full year for which there are figures, there were 3,200 incidents where drivers had acted dangerously or had taken risks or perhaps not obeyed the signals or lights or barriers"

 

Andi

 

It is very sad news that an innocent child has died.

 

Looking at it from the other side, have there been level crossing incidents where the railway has been at fault?

 

What would the reaction be if the solution to the problem of dangerous crossings was to close the road?

[Xerces Fobe2]

Very sad to hear that the child died, and combined with yesterday's death of a contractor on the track it all adds up as a reminder of just how dangerous railways can be even to those who are meant to be there.

 

As for the level crossing safety issue the last line of Dave's quote says it all.

"In the last full year for which there are figures, there were 3,200 incidents where drivers had acted dangerously or had taken risks or perhaps not obeyed the signals or lights or barriers"

 

Andi

 

It's not just incidents at level crossings though; when drive to my local town, the number of times I encounter cars drives and cyclists that blatantly jump lights on the 2 single road lane road bridges near me and fail to stop at Stop or Give Way signs or lines. It appears that a growing number of people truly believe it is the world exists for them primarily and that they are invincible!

 

I am in no way pre judging this specific tragic incident which is tragic for all involved.

 

XF

[Glorious NSE]

Looking at it from the other side, have there been level crossing incidents where the railway has been at fault?

 

Yes - although they are much, much rarer than ones where the driver is at fault.

 

What would the reaction be if the solution to the problem of dangerous crossings was to close the road?

 

In the places where that was easy I suspect it's already happenned...

[peanuts]

fixed camera facing every crossing with lights so both sides of the crossing this activates every time the barrier sequence is innitiated captures EVERY person jumping over the crossing prosecution 6pts big fine lots of reporting in local press ( name and shame ) would soon see a massive reduction in numbers as any picture would show the drivers face no quibles on who was driving the vehicle .

[The Stationmaster]

This incident has now taken a particularly sad turn and my sympathy goes out to the family of the little girl who has died. However events have taken a worrying turn with the intervention of 'rent-a-quote' folk such as the local MP and the ever thoughtless Bob Crowe who are clearly not thinking through to what could happen as this incident is investigated. The regrettable fact is that somebody will bear responsibility for what took place and that person - who might not even yet have been identified - is going to feel far worse now there is the death of a child involved. I'm sure - even if there was absolutely no fault on his part - the Driver of the train might already be suffering in that way, simply because he was there.

 

But all the idiots lining up with their instant answers are sparing no consideration at all for those who might yet suffer effects from this incident and I really wish such people would keep their own counsel and forget their irrelevant sound bites or 5 seconds of fame. I also wish Crowe in particular would stop spouting misleading rubbish particularly when calling for action which is not possible - sorry Dumbo Bob but the funding of road alterations, such as bridges, to replace level crossings is not the responsibility of Network Rail but isthat of local councils although sometimes a joint funded scheme might occur.

[ERIC]

I should be surprised by some of the comments on the Finningley crossing crash from people I take to be well informed about railway practice and the Highway Code, but I am not; just disappointed.

 

Once again we have a completely preventable collision between a road vehicle and a train, this time on a clearly marked, full barrier level crossing.

 

A look at Google Maps shows the Finningly level crossing to be on a straight level road, with several hundred yards' clear view in both directions. As noted, the crossing is a full barrier crossing. The adjacent signal box appears to be in use, because there are no CCTV cameras covering the crossing, and the nameboard is in place and maintained. Thus the signalman would have looked in both directions for road traffic before initiating the barrier lowering sequence: flashing yellow lights; flashing red lights; left hand side barriers down; right hand side barriers down.

 

If any of the barriers are damaged, the indication is that the car was driven through them as they were coming down, or already down. Even if the driver had tried to drive through when only the first barrier on each side was down or coming down, the lights were already showing red.

 

I presume the same car driver does not go through red traffic lights, so why ignore yellow or red level crossing lights?

Two loco drivers on the Romney Hythe & Dymcurch Railway have been killed by car drivers failing to obey level crossing lights.

In August 2003 Kevin Crouch was killed at a level crossing after his train hit a car. Despite driving past red flashing lights, the driver of the car was only found guilty of careless driving, disqualified for 12 months and given a £500 fine. What he did was dangerous driving, yet he appears not to have been charged with that offence, let alone manslaughter.

 

In July 2005 train driver Suzanne Martin was killed when another car driver claimed she did not see the flashing red level crossing lights and drove into the path of a train. The soft hearted jury found Marie Scrace, 23, guilty of careless driving but acquitted her of causing death by dangerous driving. She was banned from driving for 12 months and fined £500. Scrace told the court that she failed to stop at a level crossing because she said she did not see the flashing warning lights. She lived at Lydd, just a few miles away, so can hardly have been unaware of the railway. And she is most likely driving now. She too had a young child in the car with her.

 

In contrast a Liverpool train guard – who mistakenly gave the right away when he thought a passenger (later shown to have been drunk and under illegal drugs) was standing clear of his train – got five years’ prison because the utterly irresponsible passenger fell between the train and the platform.

 

All around the world, road vehicle drivers ignore level crossing lights and signs – and risk their lives and the lives of others. Only when such drivers treat level crossing lights in the same way as they treat other traffic lights (at crossroads, T-junctions, pelican crossings, etc) will we see an end to totally preventable level crossing accidents. On full size railway level crossings it is usually the road driver and/or passengers who come off worse. There is an attitude of the road driver being the underdog because most trains are so much heavier and bigger than most road vehicles. That does not mean doling out sympathy for fools. Certainly not fools who kill.

 

The driver of the car at Finnngley can be charged with involuntary manslaughter: causing death through recklessness or criminal negligence. History shows that juries shy away from such convictions (“there but for the grace of God go I”?), and that is why the offence of causing death through dangerous driving was introduced.

 

From the evidence so far, either or both of the above charges should be made against the driver. But, given a child was killed in the collision, guess where the sympathies will lie. Not with the train driver, that is for sure.

 

Already we have a lot of touchy-feely emotions shown for total strangers. That at least one parent was willing to risk his or her life and that of the child makes one wonder why very few of those who have already made comments on this website are so unwilling to put the blame where, from the evidence, it squarely lies.

[EddieB]

I removed an early comment of mine yesterday in case it was regarded as speculative and because I might have read into the press reports that "train collides with car" an implication of bias that wasn't there.

 

I am deeply upset that an innocent life has been lost, and have sympathy for the train driver who will probably carry the memory of this for the rest of his days. One life lost, many lives disrupted and one career cut short.

 

I am extremely angry at the inane comments made by Bob Crow and others as reported in the press. After Levenson, you might hope that the press would conduct themselves more responsibly in the reporting of tragic incidents. My speculation possibly, but have they sought out spokespeople to deliver sound-bites to order?

[DavidH]

Once again we have a completely preventable collision between a road vehicle and a train, this time on a clearly marked, full barrier level crossing.

 

A look at Google Maps shows the Finningly level crossing to be on a straight level road, with several hundred yards' clear view in both directions. As noted, the crossing is a full barrier crossing. The adjacent signal box

 

Sorry, one query - I think you're looking on the wrong road. It's at Springs Road and is quite clearly half barrier in the BBC photo.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20595926

[beast66606]

Sorry, one query - I think you're looking on the wrong road. It's at Springs Road and is quite clearly half barrier in the BBC photo.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-20595926

 

 

And quite clearly linked already (correctly) in post #5

 

 

 

 

Let's keep to this discussion and not wander off into Merseyrail guards - the RAIB report on that incident is here

 

I suspect Grand parent rather than parent and whilst I might agree with some of your sentiments and frustrations, this forum is not the best place to express them too vociferously, simply because no-one of importance will be listening.

[ERIC]

Further to my previous posting, I now realise from reading the Daily Mirror report that the accident happened on another road in Killingley from the one with the full barrier crossing. The crossing is a half-barrier one, and the driver was not one of the girl's parents, but a 67 year old woman.

 

However, the general thrust of my comments stands. The road is straight, with a clear view of the crossing, with standard flashing yellow and red lights.

 

What if the single-car DMU had been derailed? Six people including the train driver were killed when an HST hit a car deliberately parked on a level crossing in Berkshire in 2004.

 

No doubt the car driver’s age will sympathetically be taken in account by the CPS. Will she be told to retake a driving test? Let’s hope so – for every road user’s sake.

[Mod4]

As has been asked numerous times please can we not speculate on the causes, responsibilities or otherwise until after the investigation has taken place and duly published.

[EddieB]

No doubt the car driver’s age will sympathetically be taken in account by the CPS. Will she be told to retake a driving test? Let’s hope so – for every road user’s sake.

 

Guilty or not - and let us not presume or pre-judge, no matter how it may appear - I think the driver has suffered enough.

[Oldddudders]

My speculation possibly, but have they sought out spokespeople to deliver sound-bites to order?

Yes, of course they have. This is how journalism has evolved in the C21. After Southall and Ladbroke Grove, a particular lawyer, involved in representing victims of such tragedies, was good at giving sound-bites, so every time there was a further accident she was contacted to provide the independent-but-expert critique of what was wrong with the railway and why. Such people have sincere views and are happy to vent them - and contacting them is a jolly cheap way of filling your paper or news bulletin with controversy and thus interest. The RMT chap has a particular interest in a return to a nationalised industry, and is a guaranteed contributor after any event such as in this sad thread.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Words fail me, typical political cr@p and Crow showing his understanding of the challenges in making crossings safer, allowing for peoples inability to follow simple rules of the road, red light = stop*nothing again

I get the impression that Crow is mates with somebody in the BBC newsroom, as he's normally on hand to spout gibberish whenever the BBC want a quote on railway matters.

 

I seem to remember that he's only against unmanned level crossing - manned ones are fine (I'm not sure how having an RMT member on site to lower the barriers will make much of a difference if motorists ignore the lights).

[Oldddudders]

I get the impression that Crow is mates with somebody in the BBC newsroom, as he's normally on hand to spout gibberish whenever the BBC want a quote on railway matters.

 

I seem to remember that he's only against unmanned level crossing - manned ones are fine (I'm not sure how having an RMT member on site to lower the barriers will make much of a difference if motorists ignore the lights).

The Beeb and everyone in the media love the Bob Crows of this world, as I've indicated above. Easy pickings with a guaranteed result!

 

Mr Crow is in business to recruit members for his union - therefore job-creation is part of his mantra. Oddly, I once worked for a very senior railway manager who was equally keen on people having jobs. He was outspoken in the run-up to Privatisation, resulting in him being sidelined - out of harm's way. Guess what - in the wake of the first few disasters after BR was no more, he was also available to offer his views on everything that was wrong with the new system and its safety record.

[Glorious NSE]

I think it's called adding 'balance' to reporting.

 

Or more cynically, finding somebody to disagree, no matter what the story is - and as said, he's a natural for that kind of soundbyte. No matter what the story is things like this would be impossible on a nationalised railway. Apparently.

[Mythocentric]

My heart goes out to that little girl and her family. Regardless of whose 'fault' it was, if anyone's, that's another young life lost. Barriers are replacable, our children are'nt!

[t-b-g]

I use this crossing regularly and it certainly doesn't have clear views each way. There is far too much vegetation around for that.

 

I have also been stopped at that same crossing and was once held for a full 10 minutes, only for the barrier to lift wthout a train passing by. Other times I have been kept waiting so long that I have wondered if there is a fault somewhere and I was once out of my car looking for a telephone before a train appeared.

 

I have no idea what happened in this instance but I just wanted to set the record straight about long delays at the crossing (which do happen) and the visibility (which is poor).

[Fat Controller]

Unfortunately, should the government listen to Mr Crow's declamations concerning the closure of unstaffed level crossings, he might find himself with fewer members, and less railway for them to be employed on. There are many areas of the country, notably in Eastern England and much of Scotland, where replacement of level crossings by bridges would be so prohibitively costly that those who pay for the railway infrastructure would be pushed to justify the continued existence of the railway. Passenger and freight traffic on such lines would hardly justify their continued survival.

Let us not forget, either, that bridges are not the panacea that some suggest; there have been several accidents (the most significant being Great Heck) where vehicles have left the road at overbridges, whilst underbridges are liable to be hit by lorry drivers, seemingly unaware of the size of their vehicles.

[peanuts]

whilst underbridges are liable to be hit by lorry drivers, seemingly unaware of the size of their vehicles.

as a lorry driver by trade since leaving the railway i regulaly have the situation where when double manned and driving i refuse to go under bridges some two inches lower than the height of my wagon where as when the other driver is in control they will happily do this in the belief that the markings on bridges in this country are largley innacurate and there is " few inches to spare " a myth that is very much prevalent in the road haulage industry leading to the inevitable incedents