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Accident on a level crossing at Finningley, near Doncaster.


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I use this crossing regularly and it certainly doesn't have clear views each way. There is far too much vegetation around for that.

 

I suspect folk are talking about clear views of the crossing - it's a dead straight approach from both directions so the flashing lights and lowered barriers should be easily visible from a long distance.

 

You shouldn't need a clear view of the trains to be safe at an AHB...

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whilst underbridges are liable to be hit by lorry drivers, seemingly unaware of the size of their vehicles.

as a lorry driver by trade since leaving the railway i regulaly have the situation where when double manned and driving i refuse to go under bridges some two inches lower than the height of my wagon where as when the other driver is in control they will happily do this in the belief that the markings on bridges in this country are largley innacurate and there is " few inches to spare " a myth that is very much prevalent in the road haulage industry leading to the inevitable incedents

Traditionally, in the lorry-versus-bridge contest, the lorry came off very much the loser. Suddenly in the '70s there was a spate of events where the result was more like a draw - the bridge was not very well, either. In one case I think the track was displaced by several inches, with potentially catastrophic result. In the Broken Rail at York thread, Stationmaster has referred to instructions to local managers to examine broken rails with a view to deciding which were safe to permit traffic to pass. Comparable instructions were issued to ensure someone had an early look at the site to see if the deck or abutments looked compromised, before a qualified bridge examiner could get there. This is serious stuff, with potential for just as much suffering as any level crossing abuse.
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I wonder if, given the latest item on the BBC News site about cars and railways, we can expect an opinion on cars travelling on roads parallel to railways?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-17522825

No, of course not. The train hit the car, so the train must have been at fault. Stands to reason, doesn't it?
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As an foreigner I have formed the opinion that level crossing accidents are a very hot button issue in the UK - even from the very beginning of the railways where the whole line had to be fenced - including the road crossings with the old style gates.

 

My perception is that level crossings are safer in the UK than just about anywhere and when there is an accident there is a lot more news coverage.

 

I've lived in Australia and the US. In both of these places there are lots of level crossings. Many of them have boom-gate type barriers, but there are still locations - even on major lines - where the safety equipment consists of nothing but a cross-buck. I crossed an industrial branch line crossing every day on my way to school that was like this. (It has boom gates now.)

 

Unless there was a material failure of crossing safety equipment, and based on the level of news coverage, the prevailing attitude to accidents outside the UK seems to be 'driver beware'.

 

Take as an example a couple of US level crossing accidents recently discussed here:

 

1. Tragic Accident in Texas where a parade float of veterans who had sustained wounds was driven in front of an oncoming train and

2. Don't Mess with Uncle Pete; where a truck was driven in front of an oncoming train

 

Both of these were covered in the press - the first one was picked up quickly by the BBC - but the news cycle did not dwell on them in the way it seems to do in the UK. Fortunately (and amazingly) there were no casualties in the second one and the video went viral in the vein of "stupid things people do".

 

It's very sad that a little girl died in this latest accident. I concur that waiting for the accident report is the appropriate thing to do before casting judgement on anyone. But why is there so much drama over level crossing accidents in the UK? Why are these accidents given so much media attention, compared to traffic accidents or even level crossing accidents in other parts of the world?

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Because in the UK the car is king, and the right to do whatever the hell you like and sod the consequences is paramount to a large amount of the population.

 

The fact that in the whole history of railways the number of people killed by trains in the UK ever is not that different to the number killed on the roads EVERY YEAR but the annual road death toll hardly ever gets a mention in the media speaks volumes.

 

Andi

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I use this crossing regularly and it certainly doesn't have clear views each way. There is far too much vegetation around for that.

 

I have also been stopped at that same crossing and was once held for a full 10 minutes, only for the barrier to lift wthout a train passing by. Other times I have been kept waiting so long that I have wondered if there is a fault somewhere and I was once out of my car looking for a telephone before a train appeared.

 

I have no idea what happened in this instance but I just wanted to set the record straight about long delays at the crossing (which do happen) and the visibility (which is poor).

While AHBs are not immune from false triggering due to equipment problems and cannot cope with situations where the train stops for some reason after it has 'struck in' and triggered the sequence, that does not absolve the motorist from obeying the law. Flashing reds means Stop, period (as Americans might say). They do not mean Stop, then ignore them if you are in a hurry or think they are broken.

 

However if you believe there is a genuine problem with the crossing then Network Rail do not mind people reporting such things. On the occasion you mention, even though the train did eventually arrive, making that call to report your concerns would have been one way to let them know. Another is to use the Network Rail helpline but in either case it would have made people aware of the issue and no doubt checks would have been carried out. Also if this was a regular occurrence, it could be that there is an intermittent fault occurring - again regular reports tho Network Rail would highlight this.

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Sad news: the little girl involved in the accident has passed away.

 

My thoughts are with her mother.

 

I REALLY hope it doesn't turn out to be any fault of hers..........

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While AHBs are not immune from false triggering due to equipment problems and cannot cope with situations where the train stops for some reason after it has 'struck in' and triggered the sequence, that does not absolve the motorist from obeying the law. Flashing reds means Stop, period (as Americans might say). They do not mean Stop, then ignore them if you are in a hurry or think they are broken.

 

However if you believe there is a genuine problem with the crossing then Network Rail do not mind people reporting such things. On the occasion you mention, even though the train did eventually arrive, making that call to report your concerns would have been one way to let them know. Another is to use the Network Rail helpline but in either case it would have made people aware of the issue and no doubt checks would have been carried out. Also if this was a regular occurrence, it could be that there is an intermittent fault occurring - again regular reports tho Network Rail would highlight this.

 

I once reported a signalling fault and all I got was a third degree interrogation to find out if I had been trespassing on the railway at the time (which I hadn't - I was outside the railway boundary and the signal is clearly visible from a public footpath outside the railway fence!). I saw a signal change from green to red then back to green via both amber aspects all within a few seconds, as a train was approaching at around 125mph. The nearby relay box was going crackers! Since then, thanks to the "friendly" person I dealt with then, I don't feel inclined to get involved again.

 

I certainly don't condone anybody disregarding the clear instructions at level crossings and I would rather wait for ever than risk going over one with half barriers down. I just wanted to mention that delays can be a bit on the long side at this crossing and that seeing an approaching train is tricky.

 

As we have people "in the know" on here, is there a guide (or even a rule) as to how long a gap is needed between a barrier going down and a train passing, given that they all use the same signalling system but may run at different speeds? The train I originally mentioned was an engineers train running at well below normal line speed, so I guessed that the train's speed was the reason for that delay.

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As we have people "in the know" on here, is there a guide (or even a rule) as to how long a gap is needed between a barrier going down and a train passing, given that they all use the same signalling system but may run at different speeds? The train I originally mentioned was an engineers train running at well below normal line speed, so I guessed that the train's speed was the reason for that delay.

 

Your wandering signal sounds like a floating track circuit.

 

Assuming automatic half barriers.

 

The sequence begins with a strike-in, the train is then 27s from the crossing and it is timed for the fastest train, so logically a train running at half speed will mean the barriers will be down for twice as long, in any case, not a lot of patience is required of road users but some seem to think even this is too long.

 

There is also a second timer where a second train can strike in without there being enough time for the barriers to complete the yellow / red / flashing / barriers down, so a second train can be longer arriving (35s from the crossing iirc)

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Guilty or not - and let us not presume or pre-judge, no matter how it may appear - I think the driver has suffered enough.

 

No, not at all.

 

WHOEVER is at fault should be punished to the fullest extent, regardless of sympathies or age or other reasons that a highly paid solicitor will no doubt spout in order to lessen the punishment.

 

Not only is a child dead, but an INNOCENT train driver has to live with what he saw for the rest of his life, the passengers on the train will no doubt wake up screaming at 3am with 'those noises of metal on metal' ringing in their ears, the emergency services will have their own way of dealing what what they saw.

 

But of course none of that matters because the lights weren't bright enough on the crossing / the car driver was old / the sky was blue / the RMT have spoken.

 

Somebody got it wrong, this ended up in an innocent death, and the person responsible should be punished to the max.

 

Mark

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Thanks for that Beast- I was wondering how the "trigger" worked and on what time period myself. I reguarly get stuck at a crossing (Stonehouse Midland) on my way into work and the time for the 150 to come through can vary quite a lot. It generally comes through quite enthusiastically, but I suspect it sometimes comes over the trigger while accelerating from being slowed over the Midland / GWR junction between Stonehouse and Gloucester.

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Because in the UK the car is king, and the right to do whatever the hell you like and sod the consequences is paramount to a large amount of the population.

 

The fact that in the whole history of railways the number of people killed by trains in the UK ever is not that different to the number killed on the roads EVERY YEAR but the annual road death toll hardly ever gets a mention in the media speaks volumes.

(My emphasis in bold.)

 

Andi,

 

this was the heart of my question. In the US the car is unquestionably king.

 

My impression is that it is harder to get a driver's license in the UK and there are greater penalties for driving infractions.

 

While car-train collisions are reported more widely than car-car collisions in the US, I don't see a similar level of anti-train slant that I perceive in British reporting with such incidents - particularly of the grandstanding kind. The very idea of staffing a level crossing in the US - except in very unusual circumstances - would never come up.

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lets not pre judge,

 

if the crossing was faulty and the company is responsible then manslaughter charges are appropriate, if an individual maintener is responsible or even a deliberate act of vandalism, likewise

 

if, it should be an error by the car driver then the same rule should apply

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While car-train collisions are reported more widely than car-car collisions in the US, I don't see a similar level of anti-train slant that I perceive in British reporting with such incidents - particularly of the grandstanding kind. The very idea of staffing a level crossing in the US - except in very unusual circumstances - would never come up.

The car is king here in Australia but the same goes as the US.

The English tabloid press seems to have one objective - to outrage and stir up the public.

The targets vary, but rail seems to be on the list.

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lets not pre judge,

 

if the crossing was faulty and the company is responsible then manslaughter charges are appropriate, if an individual maintener is responsible or even a deliberate act of vandalism, likewise

 

if, it should be an error by the car driver then the same rule should apply

The car could have had faulty brakes - we will know eventually....

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Interestingly the METRO did report this as "Car hit the train" is that because most Metro readers are rail commuters?

Sometimes vehicles do indeed hit the train.

 

On June 24, 2011, the NTSB launched a go-team to investigate an accident that occurred when a large truck struck a passenger train at a highway-rail grade crossing in the Nevada desert.

 

About 11:19 a.m. Pacific daylight time, an Amtrak passenger train, the California Zephyr, was struck broadside by a truck tractor in combination with two side-dump trailers. As a result of the collision, the truck driver and five people on the train were killed.

...

Investigators have documented that the sight distance on the section of roadway leading up to the grade crossing from the truck driver’s direction of travel was over 1 mile; a color video recording from the lead locomotive showed that the crossing gates were down as the train approached the crossing and the audio recording confirmed that the train horn and crossing bell were activated; and tire marks were found starting 320 feet from the grade crossing and continuing up to the railroad tracks.

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Hello?

A child has died in the inncident... and people say the train driver suffered? Not as nuch as the child, thats for sure....

 

Nothing to do whether "this is right, or this is wrong" have some f******* consideration !

 

I'd worked long enough to know it affects some, it less affects some when ya at the pointy end....but please!!!!

 

I don't think anyone is minimising the tragedy of this little girl's death and I'm the last person to start hurling accusations of blame around on the basis of facts garnered from the internet; but I don't think there's anything wrong with sympathising with the train driver, who is almost certainly not responsible for the collision but who will be living with the trauma of having been present - with a grandstand view, indeed - at such a horrible incident.

 

To be honest, I think you're a bit out of order here.

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No, not at all.

 

WHOEVER is at fault should be punished to the fullest extent, regardless of sympathies or age or other reasons that a highly paid solicitor will no doubt spout in order to lessen the punishment.

 

Not only is a child dead, but an INNOCENT train driver has to live with what he saw for the rest of his life, the passengers on the train will no doubt wake up screaming at 3am with 'those noises of metal on metal' ringing in their ears, the emergency services will have their own way of dealing what what they saw.

 

But of course none of that matters because the lights weren't bright enough on the crossing / the car driver was old / the sky was blue / the RMT have spoken.

 

Somebody got it wrong, this ended up in an innocent death, and the person responsible should be punished to the max.

 

Mark

 

With respect, none of us know the circumstances that led to this accident and asking for someone's head on a plate isn't going to bring the little girl back.

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Your wandering signal sounds like a floating track circuit.

 

Assuming automatic half barriers.

 

The sequence begins with a strike-in, the train is then 27s from the crossing and it is timed for the fastest train, so logically a train running at half speed will mean the barriers will be down for twice as long, in any case, not a lot of patience is required of road users but some seem to think even this is too long.

 

There is also a second timer where a second train can strike in without there being enough time for the barriers to complete the yellow / red / flashing / barriers down, so a second train can be longer arriving (35s from the crossing iirc)

 

Many thanks! I had often wondered about such things and now I know.

 

Tony

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Hello?

A child has died in the inncident... and people say the train driver suffered? Not as nuch as the child, thats for sure....

 

Nothing to do whether "this is right, or this is wrong" have some f******* consideration !

 

I'd worked long enough to know it affects some, it less affects some when ya at the pointy end....but please!!!!

 

Assuming that the driver passed red lights and drove into the path of the train, if the driver had driven past similar red lights and through an open swing bridge* drowning the child in the river I'd be expecting the driver to be prosecuted...

 

*Other red flashing lights are available... do drivers argue with fire engines when red lights are set up outside fire stations?

 

Andi

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