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Finney A3 - Spearmint


Christian

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I think ABS refers to AWS. It was fitted to quite a few steam locos in the early 1960s.

 

The bogie mod certainly looks like an AWS detector (it looks like the dog's B too - just like the whole build to date). Got me looking at a Finney 7mm Steamer (but must get on with my JLTRT 25 first).

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Also, what IS ABS on a loco?

 

It stands for 'Anti Lock Bracking System', surely you knew that British Rail installed this system on all of their locos to stop the wheels from locking up! cool.gif

 

I rather suspect that AWS is meant...

 

Yes, thats what I meant to say, srpellingg is nrot mye stronggestt tallantt.

 

I very much like the clean appearance of your work and in particular how well the bogie springs have been attached to the frames (given the closeness of the spring castings to the centre platework). Please tell what method has been used for the castings and how you achieved such a good result.

 

The castings were the last pieces to be fitted to the bogie, the rest had been soldered with 145 deg solder. The white metal castings were put in place and tacked with some 100 deg solder on my soldering iron. Then I use my micro flame torch on the joint until the solder runs throughout the joint. Obviously great care needs to be taken when using a micro flame torch and white metal, but with some practice and care I use it for most of my white metal work.

 

Anyway, spent today rebuilding the rolling chassis. I had stripped the chassis to work on the coupling rods and the driving wheel weights, now that they are finished the chassis has been re-assembled including the fitting of the bogie.

 

This is the first time that all of the wheels have been fitted and it now looks like what a 4-6-2 should look like.

 

post-6851-12643622275003_thumb.jpg

 

I am still waiting for cast driving wheel springs to arrive so I am now moving on to the footplate.

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Regarding cast springs, I asked Andy Beaton of Ragstone Models about driving springs in cast brass. Andy sent an e-mail to me late last year to say that he was now stocking the LNER A3 / A4 driving springs in brass as well as white-metal.

 

For those building an A3 or an A4 in 7mm, the front spring hanger bracket of the front spring is part of the break weighshaft casting... and the front spring hanger bolt is several inches longer than the rear bolt. Mind you, I have yet to work out how to replicate this feature.

 

regards, Graham

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Whose springs are you using? I'm sure I've seen some on another thread that were lost wax brass, but all the ones I can find are whitemetal. (Ragstone, Hobbyhorse).

 

Regarding cast springs, I asked Andy Beaton of Ragstone Models about driving springs in cast brass. Andy sent an e-mail to me late last year to say that he was now stocking the LNER A3 / A4 driving springs in brass as well as white-metal.

 

As I have mentioned before I am waiting for some cast loco driving wheel springs to arrive. The spring included in the kit are a liminated affair, they will need a lot of work to make them look half good and will be tricky to fit.

 

The photo below shows a white metal spring casting as supplied by Hobbyhorse and the etched springs supplied in the Finney kit.

I am sure you will agree that the casting looks a million times better than the etched spring, the casting has so much more detail and really looks the part.

However there is a big difference in size between the two. One of them is obviously wrong but which one?

 

post-6851-12644450306444_thumb.jpg

 

As Graham has mentioned, Ragstone now do these springs in cast brass which would be much better as I really do not like white metal, if there is an alternative part available in cast brass I would rather use it.

I do also have an order place with another supplier, Iain Young of Sanspareilics. They also do cast brass springs so I am eager to see how they compare with the brass offerings of Ragstone.

 

The difference in the size of these springs is more about the width rather than the height, problem is that the Finney frames have rivet detail for the spring hanger mountings and if I used the larger springs the rivet would not line up with the casting. Mind you, you can see little of the rivet detail behind the wheels.

 

Thoughts anyone????

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Hi Christian, I also used these recently on the K2.

 

They were too long for me, but I think that was because the driving wheels on the K2 are smaller, so I made up a jig to ensure the correct width of the end hangers for the 6 springs each time and cut out the central mount to the hornblock and soldered the ends together.

 

To represent the mount to the hornblock i used some pre-cut phosphor-bronze strip and wrapped that round the spring casting and soldered that too.. they looked and fitted fine after that...

 

JB.

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As I have mentioned before I am waiting for some cast loco driving wheel springs to arrive. The spring included in the kit are a liminated affair, they will need a lot of work to make them look half good and will be tricky to fit.

 

The photo below shows a white metal spring casting as supplied by Hobbyhorse and the etched springs supplied in the Finney kit.

I am sure you will agree that the casting looks a million times better than the etched spring, the casting has so much more detail and really looks the part.

However there is a big difference in size between the two. One of them is obviously wrong but which one?

 

post-6851-12644450306444_thumb.jpg

 

As Graham has mentioned, Ragstone now do these springs in cast brass which would be much better as I really do not like white metal, if there is an alternative part available in cast brass I would rather use it.

I do also have an order place with another supplier, Iain Young of Sanspareilics. They also do cast brass springs so I am eager to see how they compare with the brass offerings of Ragstone.

 

The difference in the size of these springs is more about the width rather than the height, problem is that the Finney frames have rivet detail for the spring hanger mountings and if I used the larger springs the rivet would not line up with the casting. Mind you, you can see little of the rivet detail behind the wheels.

 

Thoughts anyone????

 

Christian -

 

I may be alone in this but I would favour the etched ones over the cast metal.

 

This is not because I do not like cast metal. Well cast [and that is the key thing] they retain detail far better than most lost wax brass castings. The term 'lost wax brass castings' does not always equate to 'quality'. I personally would much rather work with high grade white metal or pewter than with cast brass as it requires so much less preparation.

 

In this case though I would favour the etchings over any casting for the following reason - I have this kit and as I read the instructions, the etched leaf spring assembly fits behind the brackets for these that are part of the main sideframe etchings. This will give you a far more realistic effect that the solid brackets portrayed on the casting that you illustrate. As you will also be aware - once you have de-cusped and cleaned up the etched leaf spring unit in your usual very thorough manner, it will look so much better than it does in your photo.

 

The best way of course would be to have individually etched leaf springs that fit within an etched wrap-around central securing strap, [as per the real thing] and then attached to the end brackets. That is how I would have designed something like this now in the light of what we are currently doing with the etched leaf springs in our wgaon kits.

 

Great job on the build!

 

Regards,

 

David Parkins,

Modern Motive Power,

www.djparkins.com

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Hello David and thank you for your thoughts and kind words,

 

I agree with you that the etched springs shown in the picture have not been dressed up yet and to be honest it is a job I would not be looking forward to, doing one would be bad enough but six?

 

My concers are not so much with the spring but the hanger itself. As you have correctly stated the loco frames have and etch which forms the forth part of the laminations for the springs and represents (although not that well) the spring hanger.

 

If I choose to use casting for the springs and hangers then the hanger etch on the loco frames would need to be removed first and then replaced with the casting be it brass, white metal or pewter.

 

As I have said I am very much undecided yet and await further options from different suppliers.

 

Alternativley perhaps a sister company of MMP, (Not So Modern Motive Power) would commission some high grade pewter spring hanger castings with phospher bronze spring laminates and central strapping, along with a way of fitting them to the hornblocks would result true working sprung suspension? Maybe I have been chatting with you know who for too long.

 

Cheers

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The photo below shows a white metal spring casting as supplied by Hobbyhorse.

 

post-6851-12644450306444_thumb.jpg

 

 

Good day Christian,

 

If I am not mistaken then the cast spring in your photograph is from the Hobbyhorse range rather than from Ragstone Models. The casting in the photograph is from a master made by Tony Reynalds and is described as such in the Hobbyhorse catalogue. The hole in each spring hanger is to take a brass nut and hence the spring plus hangers can be fixed to the frames by screws (information provided by Tony at Telford last year). Ragstone models will provide photographs of their castings upon request - or I can e-mail photos of A3-appropriate castings which I received from Andy.

 

If you read through the A3 thread by Dikitriki, on the old RMWeb, there is at least two posts in which replacement castings are discussed and several are illustrated by photographs.

 

I have a digital copy of an A4 general arrangement drawing which shows the shapes of the spring hangers... they may be similar to the A3 parta. I can send to you... it is 11MB in size.

 

regards, Graham

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There is still much to decide with regards to the driving wheel springs and I have several options to consider, so whilst I am waiting for some final samples to arrive I have made a start on the footplate.

 

The Martin Finney kit comes with a clever jig. The valences, buffer and drag beam are all part of one large etch which is folded up and soldered to provide a stable platform for the footplate.

 

post-6851-12647936585667_thumb.jpg

 

I have spent considerable time forming the delicate curves on the footplate so that it sits perfectly on the jig with out having to force it into place prior to soldering.

 

post-6851-12647937741807_thumb.jpg

 

Here you can see that I have fitted the front lower footplate, front frame extentions, splashers and the bases of the valve cover boxes.

Again the fit of the parts have been exeptional and everything has really fallen into place.

 

post-6851-12647942403072_thumb.jpg

 

Next to look at will be the smoke box saddle. There appears to be two options to use here, the white metal castings as described in the instructions or the brass etches which are included within the kit but strangely there is no reference to these etches in the instructions.

I think that the etched option will be a little more delicate and certainly more involved to build but overall will be more detailed.

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Hello Christian,

 

You are making a fine job there. I think it will look superb when finished. Just as a matter of interest, how are you managing to keep it so clean during the build ?. It`s almost as if you are wearing rubber gloves, but I suspect you are using some form of cleaning agent before taking the photographs as the nickel is so shiny.

It all helps with the clarity of view.

I am a fairly clean worker myself I would say, but these photo`s of yours suggest you have been using Brasso before their portraits have been taken.

 

Keep up the good work. Next steam engine ?????.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

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Just as a matter of interest, how are you managing to keep it so clean during the build ?. It`s almost as if you are wearing rubber gloves, but I suspect you are using some form of cleaning agent before taking the photographs as the nickel is so shiny.

It all helps with the clarity of view.

I am a fairly clean worker myself I would say, but these photo`s of yours suggest you have been using Brasso before their portraits have been taken.

 

Keep up the good work. Next steam engine ?????.

 

Thank you Ian,

 

No there is no secret cleaning agent used here, just some washing detergent and hot water.

 

I think that one of the reasons that things have kept so clean is becouse of the flux that I am using. As you may be aware I am part of the 'Building O Gauge Online' group and we all use the same flux. Simon inrtoduced this flux last year and it really is good stuff. It works just like any normal flux but becouse it is water based it does not stain or corrode and does not need to be immediately cleaned off after use.

I don't know much more about it's composition but I am sure that Simon would answer any further questions regarding this, all I know know is that it's great stuff.

 

Here's a link.

http://www.7mmlocomo...emart&Itemid=52

 

I do however clean up frequently becouse I am photographing everything and I dry everything off using a compressor to avoid water staining.

I mostly use a small gas torch for soldering, 2mm and 4mm fibreglass scratch brushes, various grades of wet and dry paper, and sometimes a mini brass wire brush mounted in a mini drill for that final finish.

 

As I have said before the quality and fit of the parts within the kit is exceptional and this has made construction very easy.

I am quite amazed were I am with the build to date, I started it exactly one month ago. I never expected to be this far along with it.

 

Next steam engine?????

 

Well the bug has bitten and at the moment it's the Finney bug so we shall have to wait and see. I would like to try something with internal valve and cylinders for an extra challange, I am also very tempted with the MOK 4MT which I saw at Telford last year. It looked fantastic.

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Hi Christian, another interesting chapter.

Can you go into details as to HOW you formed the delicate curves? Did you anneal the footplate first?

 

Hello Jeff,

 

No I did not have to anneal the footplate prior to forming it to shape, I just used my rollers.

The rollers are supplied by GW Models and along with their rivet press they are two of the best tools I have ever purchased.

 

post-6851-12648004340625_thumb.jpg

post-6851-12648004692146_thumb.jpg

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Hello Christian,

 

You are making a fine job there. I think it will look superb when finished. Just as a matter of interest, how are you managing to keep it so clean during the build ?. It`s almost as if you are wearing rubber gloves, but I suspect you are using some form of cleaning agent before taking the photographs as the nickel is so shiny.

It all helps with the clarity of view.

I am a fairly clean worker myself I would say, but these photo`s of yours suggest you have been using Brasso before their portraits have been taken.

 

Keep up the good work. Next steam engine ?????.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

 

 

Ian

 

As Christian mentioned he is using our own brand of flux.

 

In my opinion the flux normally sold to modellers is far too harsh and if you have it on your fingers you will leave marks on the metal. Add to this that any flux is going to spatter when heated and it's not hard to see how so many models start to look untidy very quickly. Any residue has to be cleaned off before the finished item is primed so in my view you are making work for yourself. Our flux is water based so the only clean up needed is warm water and the cheapest washing up liquid you can obtain. On top of this I always give a finished model a spray over in neat cellulose thinners from the air brush and let it dry before applying that all important etch primer coat.

 

I have worked with Christian at shows and he does have this set routine of cleaning as he goes. This is by no means a bad thing and I think the photo's say it all.

 

He is certainly not using Brasso, that would be a total disaster as it leaves a protective film on the items you are cleaning. The same goes for a lot of the other household cleaners that modellers chuck all over the things that they have just spent hours laboring away to create. They all work by stripping away the surface to some degree and all leave some kind of residue.

 

Hope that answers your question.

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Hello Simon,

 

The Brasso remark was tongue in cheek. I have been in the plumbing/building industry for thirty years and know how to solder and agree with you about commercial fluxes for modellers, which is why I use Fry`s Powerflux for plumbing as I know it works well for me.

I clean up after every session and you can see that my J71 or K1 thread is no comparison to Christians `shininess`. I admire his cleanliness and build quality as there is not a file mark or scratch in sight. The metal is very bright.

I have built kits where the brass is very shiny and stays that way almost to completion, but a little subdued.

I think it is Harrier Mate (Adrian) that also built a Finney A3 and if you compare his photo`s of the kit to Christians, then you can see what I`m on about, do disrespect to the other builder.

 

Without doubt it beggars belief, the cleanliness !.

 

Great work.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

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Hello Ian

 

When I got them which was about a year ago, the rivet punch was around ??45.00 and the roller was around ??60.00 both were subject to postage and packing costs.

 

They are great tools and were considerably cheaper than some other suppliers offerings.

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Thats strange, the pound cymbol does not seem to work, perhaps we are not supposed to talk money on here?

Its a known issue talked about in the forum help area..

 

GW models do attend a couple of shows which does save you the postage, i've wanted to get the rivet press for some time but the other one with the moving table.

 

This build is great to read so far and has tips for all gauges :).

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