Motive power for Camden Shed

[MacDuff999]

Any suggestions then Mike, as to a suitable motor, based on your experience with these locos on Carlisle? I did exactly as you did Iain, and attached the 'window frame' to the tender back with low-melt. It looks as though it will support the rear of the tender top OK. 

 

Ian. 

[TerryD1471]

On 12/05/2021 at 20:44, 92220 said:

 @farren By any chance, do you have a date for this photo?  
Trying to work out when 45034 had mudhole covers and when it didn’t.  
 

I think this photo below is probably in 1960-61 ish - AWS fitted but no warnings for overhead electric cables was my reasoning.  
I’ve fitted AWS to 45034 but I haven’t removed the mudhole covers.

 

Iain

 

There have been discussions about the layout of Walschaerts valve gear elsewhere. These two pictures of the same loco serve to show just how much the valve rod moves depending on what gear the loco is in. The topmost (at New Street) shows the loco in full forward gear with the valve rod in its lowest position, whereas the next two shows the loco on the turntable (at Camden?) in full backward gear with the valve rod so high it can hardly be seen. Needless to say, unless you can model a loco so that the valve rod can move up and down according to the direction of travel etc. it is almost always going to be in the wrong position, which explains why most RTR manufacturers nowadays tend to put locos in mid-gear.

Edited September 5, 2021 by TerryD1471

[TerryD1471]

26 minutes ago, MacDuff999 said:

Any suggestions then Mike, as to a suitable motor, based on your experience with these locos on Carlisle? I did exactly as you did Iain, and attached the 'window frame' to the tender back with low-melt. It looks as though it will support the rear of the tender top OK. 

 

Ian. 

Yes, Ian, the "windowframe" is intended to support the back end of the tender top on DJH pacifics; I agree with Mike Edge that the loco has to have a sizeable motor just to haul the tender around although my own experience with DJH pacifics is that a D13 with 40:1 gears is fully up to 14 kit built coaches, notwithstanding the heavy tender.

 

Terry

[Michael Edge]

10 hours ago, MacDuff999 said:

Any suggestions then Mike, as to a suitable motor, based on your experience with these locos on Carlisle? I did exactly as you did Iain, and attached the 'window frame' to the tender back with low-melt. It looks as though it will support the rear of the tender top OK. 

 

Ian. 

The Carlisle ones all have Portescaps, two of the Princesses have Comet MGB1 (better but rather expensive), there are plenty of motors available now to fit ti a High Level gearbox but I have no direct experience of them in a Duchess. There is a Mabuchi motor which is very cheap (£1.50 or so) and powerful enough for absolutely anything.

[D.Platt]

Mabuchi motor , not come across this one , any information on it regarding size and source ?

[MacDuff999]

Not the best move to attach the W/M 'window frame' before fixing the back in situ! I did manage it eventually, but it was a bother to get things square and flush, without melting the W/M. Abandoned things for a more relaxing cup of tea, after getting a reasonable fit. Attaching the second side can wait until tomorrow now. Then the fun starts - trying to get the heavy top between the sides! Instructions say you have to prise them gently apart to do it??  

 

Ian. 

[MacDuff999]

I might contact Chris at High Level Mike, to see what he suggests. This is a new area for me now, selecting and fitting motor/gearboxes, so a little guidance is required. Which axle do your 'Coronations' drive on by the way, rear or centre? I seem to recall Tony Wright, for example,  suggests driving on the centre axle. I suppose it may depend, to a degree, on whether you are particular about having a fitted cab in your locos. 

 

Ian. 

[Michael Edge]

22 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Mabuchi motor , not come across this one , any information on it regarding size and source ?

Photo of one of these

Fairly easily available from Ebay, they are sold as used (the tags have been unsoldered) but all the ones I've had are fine. This one fitted to a High Level Roadrunner for my S1 0-8-4T, I have one in a 4F which I weighted up to 750g with V blocks balanced on the boiler - it could still easily spin the wheels.

[D.Platt]

28 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Photo of one of these

Fairly easily available from Ebay, they are sold as used (the tags have been unsoldered) but all the ones I've had are fine. This one fitted to a High Level Roadrunner for my S1 0-8-4T, I have one in a 4F which I weighted up to 750g with V blocks balanced on the boiler - it could still easily spin the wheels.

 

Thanks for the photo , I’ve been looking for a large flat can motor , onto eBay fingers crossed 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Photo of one of these

Fairly easily available from Ebay, they are sold as used (the tags have been unsoldered) but all the ones I've had are fine. This one fitted to a High Level Roadrunner for my S1 0-8-4T, I have one in a 4F which I weighted up to 750g with V blocks balanced on the boiler - it could still easily spin the wheels.

They seem to be used in the automotive industry a lot (electric window, mirrors etc) so I guess they could be recycled through the car breaking industry perhaps?

[Michael Edge]

Probably, they seem reliable so far, I've used quite a few now. They are extremely powerful, fairly quiet and don't take much current.

[92220]

59 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Probably, they seem reliable so far, I've used quite a few now. They are extremely powerful, fairly quiet and don't take much current.

Thanks for the recommendation, Mike.

I have speculatively purchased a few to see which ones work best.

Still have a small stockpile of Mashima 1628 and a few 1626 too, but I’ve never used a Portescap or the Comet Canon.  Yet. 
 

Iain

[92220]

Duly arrived.  The bigger one has a 2mm shaft, quite short too, and is 15x20x32 mm, so somewhat larger than the ad stated.  Anyway, it should still fit in a Coronation and we will see how it goes.  The smaller one is 12x15x27 mm with a 1.5 mm shaft.  I bought 5 of each for the princely sum of half a curry.  No real harm done if they aren’t any good.  

 

Iain

[92220]

I can’t help myself……

 

 

Iain

[92220]

This larger motor fitted a Comet GB3 fine with a 2mm worm, but I had to mark, drill and open out new mounting holes. Normal M2 screws (don’t come with the motor) work perfectly.  I guess you could solder the gearbox to the motor if you knew what you were doing - Mike Edge I think this is what you do?  The motor casing has a collar around the shaft of the motor that exactly matches and centres the motor shaft so it aligns perfectly with the gear wheel in the Comet box.  So even I couldn’t get it wrong.  It runs smoothly and quietly in this form.  I’ll take a photo tomorrow and add it here. 
 

It is tight on top though.  The size of the motor means it doesn’t quite sit parallel to the top of the frames in OO.  EM or P4 I think would be a doddle.  The very thick DJH frames might be a problem.  I could remove a little from the Comet frames here, as it would be hidden anyway, but I don’t think I will unless I have to.  A different, more adaptable gearbox, perhaps GB5 with an extender or a High Level one, would give more angles to play with.  It will fit nicely in a Coronation boiler/firebox, but I would imagine it’s too big for most locos.  
 

I will build this up and see how it goes.  The smaller one will certainly have more permutations for use in different locos but hopefully this will work for the biggest. 
 

Iain

[Michael Edge]

I use screws where they fit in the right places but don't mind soldering motors to gearboxes when they don't. What's the gear ratio of this box? If this is the same motor I've used it starts and runs quite fast, best with a low ratio box.

[92220]

I think it’s 38:1 Mike so that sounds like it might not be low enough, I don’t know.  I’m pretty sure it’s not exactly the same motor as yours though, so I will see how it goes when I make it up.  I can replace it with something else, and use a different box with lower gearing for this one if I have to.
 

Iain

[Barry O]

Iaian

Even I can manage to solder these type of motors to the high level gearboxes....

 

Bqs

[92220]

I might have a go when I need to Baz yes. I’m not sure what metal the cases are made from but I will seek advice if I get to that.  But I prefer to screw them together as Mike says when possible especially if i am trying out a new combination as here.  Then if it doesn’t work I can try something else.  I think the smaller motors which are effectively a 1527 have screw holes already in the right place so we will see.  
 

Iain

[Michael Edge]

I used a 68:1 High Level box with the last two I've put in, the first try out was nearer your 38:1 in a Wills 4F, it will pull a house down but is a bit of a jackrabbit start.

[92220]

Thanks Mike, that’s helpful.  I probably need it to be more controllable at lower speeds - heavy trains passing the shed will only be either up trains braking before descending the off scene bank into Euston, or down trains just cresting that bank.  Plus it needs to move around the shed at low speeds.  I’ll see how it goes.  
 

Fired up the Poppy’s jig 

 

 

The problem with this big motor is not that it doesn’t fit the frames or the boiler (this isn’t the body I will use just a spare)

 

 

but the 27mm wheels foul it slightly 

 

 

 

So….either I put this box and motor in a Princess, and hope the 1mm smaller wheels work (I can test first), or I use a different gearbox with a longer “throw”, or I file a bit away from the motor casing.  I think the first and second options have more chance of lasting success to be honest!

 

However, I made up this GB3 and also another one with a Mashima 1628 to compare, and neither will run.  I’ve never had an issue with Comet boxes, and in fact I have never used any others, but with both of these when the 46 tooth idler gear is put in it seems to push too hard against the worm and the motor won’t turn it, or if it does it is jerky, slow and only runs in one direction.  It is as if the etched hole is too close to the motor mount.  I think that is unlikely as all of the previous ones I have built have been fine, unless the gears are a new batch.  I don’t know.  Anyway, any advice welcome.  I have opened the idler gear bearing hole just a twitch but to no avail. 
 

Iain

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by 92220
Added a clause

[92220]

Not a good gearbox day…..

 

46248 started whirring instead of going and I assumed it had dropped a grub screw somehow.  This one is on a GB5 plus drive extender and in fact the idler gear had come loose 

 

 

 

So I soldered a couple of small pieces of brass to stop the steel gear axle from moving sideways and dislocating.  
 

 

Great, it runs properly forwards.  But it won’t go in reverse and just locks up.  No issue with the rods or anything like that x I checked.  Looks like the gearbox locks up.  
 

ugh

 

Never thought I would think this but I am beginning to lean towards shelling out 70-80 quid for a preassembled DJH box being worth it, given I have spent about 6 hours today on these.  

 

Iain

[Barry O]

Iaian

I have ditched the comet gearboxes. The DJH ones are a very large rip off and make use of high level gears and cheap Chinese motors. I can get a high level gearbox to work very quickly at far less expense than the DJH one.. no brainer for me!! 

Baz

 

 

 

[Michael Edge]

You can safely file the corners of the motor to clear the wheels, it will stay in one piece and any moviing stuff is a long way inside.

[92220]

Thanks Baz and Mike

 

I was more concerned about debris getting inside over time but I think now I might try a HL box anyway which will put the motor further from the driving wheel centre and solve it that way.  Baz - would you suggest a Loadhauler in a Coronation?  

 

Iain