Motive power for Camden Shed

[Pebbles]

There is always a potential problem with the "ebay" motors; as whilst they may look alike they are not always the same. For example, the larger of the Chinese motors you have comes in at least two versions with quite significant performance characteristics.  

[D.Platt]

Bit surprised the way that you have mounted the flat can motor , I always have the flat in line with the frame .

Also recommend the high level boxes , they take me about 30 minutes to put together , and a good customer service.

Dennis

[Barry O]

2 hours ago, 92220 said:

Thanks Baz and Mike

 

I was more concerned about debris getting inside over time but I think now I might try a HL box anyway which will put the motor further from the driving wheel centre and solve it that way.  Baz - would you suggest a Loadhauler in a Coronation?  

 

Iain

I have two DJH Duchess kits to complete. I haven' fitted either with a HL box yet. Away on a seaside trip so can't check what I bought and added to the kit boxes.

 

Baz

[92220]

13 hours ago, Pebbles said:

There is always a potential problem with the "ebay" motors; as whilst they may look alike they are not always the same. For example, the larger of the Chinese motors you have comes in at least two versions with quite significant performance characteristics.  

Well yes exactly.  I chose the ones with the most likely specs I could, and it’s a bit of an experiment at 2 quid each to see what they are like,  

 

13 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Bit surprised the way that you have mounted the flat can motor , I always have the flat in line with the frame .

Also recommend the high level boxes , they take me about 30 minutes to put together , and a good customer service.

Dennis

I tend to use the etched screw holes provided - whichever way they are aligned is how I mount the motor.  In this case I didn’t have much choice anyway: it wouldn’t fit in the boiler if I rotated it by 90 deg.

Will def try HL.  I have one for a Jinty in a full chassis kit.  But I need to order something suitable for this.

 

A somewhat Heath Robinson solution: 

 

 

 

Inserting a small washer between the box and the motor on the top mount just eases the angle of the worm upwards with respect to the idler gear. This effectively seems to provide the required clearance and both boxes now run smoothly.  It’s not perfect but the worm should engage with the gear basically on the tangent (yes I know there is overlap so not strictly the tangent) so it’s not as geometrically dodgy as it first appears.  Is it reliable enough for actual use? Maybe with a slightly longer M2 mounting screw?
 

Iain

[46256]

Iain as with your other contributors I would use High Level as my first choice for gears. I have used comet and markits previously, I believe the gears in both, are made by the later company. I also assemble my gears and motors separately and run them in before introducing them to the assembled chassis. I have experienced problems with comet/ markits similar to those you are experiencing now. I too have tried to introduce washers to adjust that critical marriage between the worm and first idler gear. I have found it does not work long term... that dreaded whirring sound when gears lose their mesh. I accept this is probably me rather than the product, I just seem to have more affinity with the High Level product.  I have to admit whilst gaining that experience I have messed up a number high level gears , often necessitating a replacement gear from the long suffering Chris. These incidents were as a result of mistakes made by me in other areas of construction, such as unintended binds on the motion. All part of the learning process. The service from both companies is excellent as I’m sure you know.
The pinnacle of my gear construction so far, has been the High Level gears for Mike Edge’s Fell kit.  I still can’t quite believe I managed to produce such a nice running loco... more a credit to the kit designer and the gear manufacturer than me I hasten to add.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Edge]

Is that the gearbox which connects the centre axles? Any chance of some photos of your Fell?

[46256]

Mike as requested close up of the gears...the first photo a work in progress...last one lined etc...

 

Since the last photo the outside cranks were altered as per your templates drive axle being slightly bigger. I hope I’ve done the kit justice my friend John Rowan kindly posted via Facebook a video of it working on my layout. Iain sorry to intrude on your thread best wishes Brian

[MacDuff999]

On the subject of gearbox/motors, I am now approaching that stage of construction of my DJH Ivatt 'Coronation'. On the previous advice of Mike, Iain and others, I am thinking of using one of the few remaining Mashima 1620's in stock at Branchlines. Am I right in thinking there would be relatively little difference in performance between a 1620 and a 1624? On a slightly different tack, an issue from slightly earlier in the build stage, you are supposed to attach small rectangular spacer plates to cylinder-fixing apertures in the mainframes, before attaching the main cast cylinder bodies onto them. How critical is it to clearances that this step is followed? I tried to attach one with S/glue. as it is potentially slightly tricky to use a soldered joint, but it came adrift. If these plates are really essential, then solder it will have to be. Advice please.    

[Michael Edge]

The DJH cylinders will be a long way out of gauge anyway - all DJH kits have the cylinders pushed out by about 1.5mm each side. This has caused us no end of problems on Carlisle with the platforms set at the correct distance from the track - their trailing axleboxes on LNER pacifics are considerably out of gauge as well.

From memory the 16x20 motors are not as powerful as the longer ones.

[92220]

I definitely don’t recall fitting those plates to my 46256 - whether that was a conscious decision, forgetfulness, ignorance or something else, I can’t remember.  But the upshot was that the cylinders were slightly less out of gauge in the end, probably, and it runs well enough so alignment can’t have been too big an issue.  The cylinders were soldered to the aperture in the frames - frames tinned around that aperture and then 70 deg low melt solder used to fix the cylinders.  Seemed to be the relatively accepted way?

 

 

My limited experience of the DJH kit is that, even without the extra lead I added, it is heavy enough that a 1620 sounds small and a 1626 or 1628 sounds much more sensible.  The tender itself weighs about 200g if built as per the kit.  That’s a fair bit to haul round even before adding a train.  

 

Hope that helps - I would listen to Mike before me though!

 

Iain

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by 92220

[MacDuff999]

Thanks Mike/Iain. I have acquired both a 1620 and 1624 for the 'Coronations'.  They will not be required to perform significant haulage feats or travel at higher speeds, so any difference in performance should not be too noticeable. I can go ahead and attach the DJH cylinders now! 

[MacDuff999]

Just to pick up on your comments re motor size/power and DJH loco weight Iain, I can't remember if I mentioned it in a previous post, but I have decided to ditch the white metal tender chassis of 46256. I have acquired a Comet tender chassis kit for the correct tender type, and on examination, it should not be too difficult to attach it to the tender superstructure. It may need a little fettling. That will reduce the overall loco weight a little. 

[MacDuff999]

Am in process of building a Comet de-streamlined tender. As it is mainly brass, I am concerned it might give a hollow, tinny sound when drawn by the loco. Anyone suggest how to avoid that, apart from perhaps just weighting? 

[92220]

First two down fast trains on here are hauled by 46245 with a Comet tender.  I plan to add some polystyrene cut to size before coaling it, but this is unaltered and the tender doesn’t make any excessive noise.  The tender axles do not have proper bearings though, and they did squeak before being set up properly and lubricated.

 

Iain

 

 

[farren]

Loving it, really showing Potential of what’s to come. Is the goods building a new structure? As I don’t remember it. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

4 hours ago, MacDuff999 said:

Am in process of building a Comet de-streamlined tender. As it is mainly brass, I am concerned it might give a hollow, tinny sound when drawn by the loco. Anyone suggest how to avoid that, apart from perhaps just weighting? 

All my tender locos have etched brass tenders and I have never noticed any noise other than wheel/rail noise. The etched panels are probably stiff enough when assembled not to to vibrate and act like a sound box.

 

 

[92220]

8 hours ago, farren said:

Loving it, really showing Potential of what’s to come. Is the goods building a new structure? As I don’t remember it. 

Thanks Farren.

It was there before but it’s been completely remodelled to be more representative of the first 1.5 of the 9 bays - 7 double, one triple and a single.  This was a massive building in real life.  
 

I used the side of the old model (because that part was quite accurate and a right ballache to repeat) and built everything else new around it. 
 

Old effort started here:

 

And this was about as far as it got:

 

Stanley’s pics here are brilliant:I

 

 

Iain

[MacDuff999]

Thanks Iain/Jol. I will press on! What do you use for coal Iain - the real thing by any chance?

[92220]

Yes, when I manage to get that far!

 

Iain

[MacDuff999]

A bit of a disaster! Does anyone by any chance possess a spare double chimney for a DJH 'Coronation'? After an extended hiatus on the modelling front over the festive season etc., I seem to have lost the chimney for my 'Sir William Stanier'. As I am now at the body detailing stage, it will soon become a glaring omission, if I can't find the ****** thing. I am sure I will not be able to get one from DJH, as I did not buy my kit from them, and they won't usually provide spares unless you have. Comet have one in their range, but it is not a particularly good representation really.  If someone does have one they do not currently need, I will of course pay a reasonable price for it. 

[Brocp]

I'd really love to see some updates from Iain, since this is his thread

[92220]

Not too much of an update on my building locos, as I’ve been away a lot and what time I’ve had has been on the layout.

 

But this one 

 

Will be good to have a green one….

Iain

 

 

[92220]

Evening,

 

It’s been a while, sorry. I’ve not been completely idle.  It’s been somewhat busy in this neck of the woods and relatively little time to do much, I’ve at least managed to complete the construction of something.  

 

Someone wanted a green one.  I can’t remember who it was now, but it was always in the plan!  
 

so I did one.

 

(I mean I built a green one, for the avoidance of any doubt)

 

This was the subject of the previous post on Jan 9: 

 

 

So as is probably pretty predictable, a Hornby City of Chester of China vintage, I guess probably 12 years old or so, so not the latest version, but it scrubs up well enough with a load of work. I think the entire loco cost me £65 and I sold the chassis for £35.  Then I added a few things: 
 

Comet frames, motion, bogie and trailing truck

Mashima 1628 and a High Level box (I can’t remember which at this moment, but a joy compared to recent battles with Comet boxes.  Never had an issue before, so it is probably me)

Comet detailing items (inside cylinder cover, deflectors, vacuum release valves, whistle, safety valves and cover, cab doors and floor, fall plate, smokebox door dart, AWS bang plate, battery box and cylinders, balance weights and axle nut covers)

Brassmasters buffer step plates
Markits driving wheels, machined crossheads and droplinks 

Gibson bogie wheels, handrail pillars throughout. 

Hornby front screw coupling

Hornby tender ledge removed, sides thinned 

247 etched plates

Fox cylinder lining 

A pile of lead which is is most conceivable crannies of frames and body.  I think it’s a bit lighter than 46245 in the final reckoning.

 

 

 

Never fails to amaze how 3 coats of Klear turns a relatively lifeless green into something more realistic.  
 

Overall I am pleased with this. To be honest I am a bit rusty, so some things took me a while.  But it runs smoothly and powerfully (15 including 6 heavy kits is no issue).  It doesn’t have a great turn of speed - deliberately, given Camden’s location - but while it wouldn’t outpace much on Little Bytham, I hope it will bear scrutiny in terms of quality.  It will, however, need crew, lamps, coal and weathering, like about 20 others.  
 

 

Best wishes to all,

Iain

 

 

[46256]

Lovely locomotive Iain, as you know High Level are my preferred gearbox, their big motor is also very powerful. Sincere thanks for your help with my recent build

 

best wishes Brian

[92220]

This is a bit laughable to be honest.  But anyway.

 

I started this in 2013.  44741 LRP Caprotti, straight steam pipes, single chimney, plain bearings, fluted rods, LWB - with a specific tender as below.  I have 2 photos of it at Camden on shed, and another at Euston, so it’s a worthy subject. 

 

The build stalled when I dropped the tender on the floor.  I thought it was reparable but it probably wasn’t and I never quite got around to finishing it.  It needed a complete Comet part welded tender with plain bearings and short spring hangers.  I decided I should get on with it before the new Hornby one comes out.  
 

So I built the tender, painted and lined it, added the splasher lining on the loco, and it is now close to being done.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 I was quite pleased with the original conversion - like the HRP 44687 it was a major operation to do so - and I am keen to keep both whatever the Hornby one looks like. I hope you all like it!

 

On another note, you might have seen this footage on the main Camden Shed thread, or on the Hills of the North thread, but it maybe bears repetition here in case not.

 

 Various Camden locos had a run up or down Shap on Saturday, thanks to Graham and the team:

 

46245 

46239

45735

92220

44687

45027

73139

92056

70044

45584

44684

 

Iain