The Glenfarg route

[Joseph_Pestell]

I find this thread fascinating as it is a line that I had no knowledge of. There seems surprisingly little info on the net for such an important route. I am visiting my father's later on today and will have a look through my library there.

 

What a super modelling prospect with such an interesting mix of motive power. And Bridge of Earn station looks perfect for a model: compact with road bridges ideally placed for scenic breaks.

[Mad McCann]

One interesting aspect of the route closure in spite of development plans concerns the lengthy concrete section of the M90. It has been suggested that the motorway, specifically the concrete section, was laid at the insistence of the MoD who envisaged its use as en emergency wartime runway, should Leuchars be taken out.

There is plenty of evidence of the MoD intervening in infrastructure matters such as objecting to communications masts in southern Scotland where they allegedly interfere with low flying and also in the blocking since 1980 of oil extraction in the Firth of Clyde, due to the rather sizeable oilfield lying in what was regarded as a training area for submarines.

Concrete stretches of motorway with airstrip potential are not unknown elsewhere in the UK and in 1976, a public display of such use was made on the M55 near Blackpool by a Jaguar jet.

['CHARD]

Intriguing, but how much would that cost? Reopening has been suggested at costing £1billion, and even if your scheme could save 25% thats still £750million - that could be better spent on other rail schemes.

 

I've not costed it, as to do so would take man-months

[sulzer27jd]

One interesting aspect of the route closure in spite of development plans concerns the lengthy concrete section of the M90. It has been suggested that the motorway, specifically the concrete section, was laid at the insistence of the MoD who envisaged its use as en emergency wartime runway, should Leuchars be taken out.

There is plenty of evidence of the MoD intervening in infrastructure matters such as objecting to communications masts in southern Scotland where they allegedly interfere with low flying and also in the blocking since 1980 of oil extraction in the Firth of Clyde, due to the rather sizeable oilfield lying in what was regarded as a training area for submarines.

Concrete stretches of motorway with airstrip potential are not unknown elsewhere in the UK and in 1976, a public display of such use was made on the M55 near Blackpool by a Jaguar jet.

 

Not quite sure of the connection as the section through Glenfarg was not built in concrete, that part of the M90 stopped from the south at Jcn 8 at the A91. Can you explain please?

['CHARD]

Not quite sure of the connection as the section through Glenfarg was not built in concrete, that part of the M90 stopped from the south at Jcn 8 at the A91. Can you explain please?

 

It would have been interesting to see fighter jets or cargo freighters landing along the Farg stretch dodging the overbridges and steering round the reverse curves!

 

I think what Mad McCann means is that the section south of Jct 8 had another high level (covert) construction imperative as well as the Department for Motorways.  There was pressure to build the M90 through the Fife flatlands as a standby runway, and this helped make the case which ended up as a fait accompli closure piece.

Edited June 9, 2014 by 'CHARD

[Jamie]

It would have been interesting to see fighter jets or cargo freighters landing along the Farg stretch dodging the overbridges and steering round the reverse curves!

 

I think what Mad McCann means is that the section south of Jct 8 had another high level (covert) construction imperative as well as the Department for Motorways.  There was pressure to build the M90 through the Fife flatlands as a standby runway, and this helped make the case which ended up as a fait accompli closure piece.

Too much cheese afore bedtime is what puts the 'mad' in this McCann, I think. ;-)

 

I'm not buying the jets theory.  Somebody in the Roads authorities thought it was a great idea, there, a Lanarkshire stretch of the 74 and on the A90 up about Brechin.  People keener than I might want to see if build dates coincide, or whether it was linked to certain ground conditions.  Hateful surface to drive on.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Jamie

[Edwin_m]

Not sure what everyone is on about here.  Just looking at the OS map and the only bit that looks vaguely straight enough for long enough for any sort of runway is south of Kinross between J5 and J6.  And even that one has an overbridge half way along. 

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

Aircraft can operate off of other surfaces than concrete. I have not heard of this possible use of the M90 before. The real test would be to find out if both carriageways were built on one continuous foundation as the central reservation would have to be able to be made good and capable of carrying the same load to turn it into a runway. The bit beside the Loch is certainly straight and flat enough.  I would have thought though that if you really required a war emergency runway here it would be quicker to clear the chicken sheds off Balado. There were plenty of disused but serviceable runways around Leuchars anyway. Crail nearby, Errol north of the Tay and East Fortune on the other side of the Forth. The latter has a very long main runway and several of the aircraft in the museum there flew in including the Vulcan. All of the "cold war" types could have operated out of there no problem.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Mad McCann]

Jings, I take the tinfoil hat off for five minutes...

[sulzer27jd]

I've just noticed that the total contribution to this thread in 2015 was 1 post.  This line, along with probably the Strathmore route, must have be the most ignored main lines on the whole of the BR network. I have long suspected that most photographs taken in Scotland during the steam era were taken by tourists who did "the circuit"; Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, Perth, Glasgow, home. Its amazing that there seems to be enough information and photos of some obscure branch line elsewhere to write books, in fact there is enough stuff on certain 'celebrity' lines like the S&D to fill a library, yet our basic main line system has large elements that are barely noticed. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the A4's in their last couple of years, that most people wouldn't know the Strathmore line even existed. In fact many of the photographs taken of trains for this route were actually taken beyond either end, which though does at least gives us some clues about the trains. There doesn't seem to be even that level of information on the Glenfarg route.

 

I have attached a file with what I believe was the passenger services for the early 50's. I'm happy to receive any feedback, corrections or further details. In fact any further information at all on this line would, I suspect, be welcomed by those with an interest.

 

J

Glenfarg Passenger TT 1951.xlsx

Edited December 31, 2015 by sulzer27jd

['CHARD]

I've just noticed that the total contribution to this thread in 2015 was 1 post.  This line, along with probably the Strathmore route, must have be the most ignored main lines on the whole of the BR network. I have long suspected that most photographs taken in Scotland during the steam era were taken by tourists who did "the circuit"; Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, Perth, Glasgow, home. Its amazing that there seems to be enough information and photos of some obscure branch line elsewhere to write books, in fact there is enough stuff on certain 'celebrity' lines like the S&D to fill a library, yet our basic main line system has large elements that are barely noticed. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the A4's in their last couple of years, that most people wouldn't know the Strathmore line even existed. In fact many of the photographs taken of trains for this route were actually taken beyond either end, which though does at least gives us some clues about the trains. There doesn't seem to be even that level of information on the Glenfarg route.

 

I have attached a file with what I believe was the passenger services for the early 50's. I'm happy to receive any feedback, corrections or further details. In fact any further information at all on this line would, I suspect, be welcomed by those with an interest.

 

J

 

You're speaking my language, sir!!!!

 

The Perth Direct and Strathmore are right up there.  I can't get enough of the Glenfarg line, each new mention, working or photograph that comes to light is like treasure.

 

I have bored this site rigid before on the subject, but it was possibly glimpses of the Farg Viaduct around the time of the line's closure that awoke something in a train mad child.  Every year seemingly we traversed the old A9 on family holidays to remote north Scottish destinations.  I watched with dismay as the bulldozers moved in some years later - bear in mind when you're eleven in pre-internet days, even access to a library isn't going to explain the inexplicable surrounding this line.  All I knew was how exciting it was to walk the line between the viaduct and Pottiehill, especially the tunnels. 

 

Around that time, probably 1973, I discovered its spiritual (for me) counterpart, the Waverley.

 

The Waverley route was something of a favourite and a cause celebre, so the MNA camped out on photographic missions, local photographers, even non-enthusiasts recorded goings-on.  It was only disadvantaged in ts final year by the impact of the end of steam.  Emphasis was elsewhere, and after August it is said that many lost interest.  We are lucky too that Roy Perkins archived that line painstakingly, an activity that continues forensically today within a diligent band of individuals.

 

I only really discovered the Strathmore's charms in the last few years, mainly through contributions on this site, and Railscot.  Whilst I'm committed to model WR operations in its twilight years, the Direct and Forfar lines are absolutely irresistible to me.  As you say though, they are overlooked, Glenfarg incredibly so.  I keep searching for a dedicated site, or even a photographic collection worthy of the name, but nothing much....

[Lochinvar]

I've just noticed that the total contribution to this thread in 2015 was 1 post.  This line, along with probably the Strathmore route, must have be the most ignored main lines on the whole of the BR network. I have long suspected that most photographs taken in Scotland during the steam era were taken by tourists who did "the circuit"; Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, Perth, Glasgow, home. Its amazing that there seems to be enough information and photos of some obscure branch line elsewhere to write books, in fact there is enough stuff on certain 'celebrity' lines like the S&D to fill a library, yet our basic main line system has large elements that are barely noticed. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the A4's in their last couple of years, that most people wouldn't know the Strathmore line even existed. In fact many of the photographs taken of trains for this route were actually taken beyond either end, which though does at least gives us some clues about the trains. There doesn't seem to be even that level of information on the Glenfarg route.

 

I have attached a file with what I believe was the passenger services for the early 50's. I'm happy to receive any feedback, corrections or further details. In fact any further information at all on this line would, I suspect, be welcomed by those with an interest.

 

J

 

 

No shortage of photographs of the Glenfarg route by WJVA. Judging by the volume of published stuff,you could be forgiven for thinking that he was almost permanently resident in the Mawcarse area in particular. Beyond his esteemed efforts,I can't think immediately of others,I have to admit.

 

DR

[Lochinvar]

I don’t have a 1951 timetable but perusal of the 1950 Summer Timetable shows the services to be similar in nature.

 

The Glasgow services ran via the Devon Valley line via Kinross Junction to Alloaa and from there via the "other Forth Bridge" to Larbert.  Being ex NBR / LNER services, they normally ran to and from Glasgow Queen Street, although this was not always the case in BR days.

 

The Inverness services generally divided at Aviemore with one portion going via Carr Bridge and the other via Forres.  Similarly, the up services tended to join at Aviemore and, given that the Forres services left Inverness earlier this translated into four daytime departures from Inverness becoming two arrivals in Edinburgh.

 

I’m not sure of the train formations circa 1951 but in the later 1950s / early 1960s Edinburgh – Inverness trains generally carried three portions in the winter (Inverness via Carr Bridge, Inverness via Forres and a Perth portion) or two in summer (Inverness via Carr Bridge and Inverness via Forres).  The busier trains ran as separate trains for each route.

 

The summer 1950 timetable shows that the 9.25am Edinburgh – Inverness conveyed a restaurant car to Aviemore only.  Similarly, the 3.20pm ex Inverness carried a restaurant car from Aviemore, perhaps the same vehicle.

 

It should also be pointed out that the Inverness – Edinburgh service predated  the formation of the LMS and as such the Highland tended to hand over its Edinburgh portions to the North British at Perth and the Glasgow portions to the Caledonian.  Because of subsequent developments, there seems to be a misconception in some quarters that the Inverness - Edinburgh services ran to Princes Street via the Caledonian / LMS route through Gleneagles and Stirling.

 

The overnight service to and from Inverness ran from both originating points on Mondays to Friday nights only.  On Saturday nights the down train still ran from Edinburgh but only as far as Perth.  Sleeping cars were not introduced onto this service until June 1959.

 

Having grown up in Dunfermline I was lucky enough to travel over this line on a number of occasions as a child and have had a life long interest in it.  Information is sparse or difficult to get hold of.  I can only assume that the dearth of views of DP2 or Deltics working the car carriers in 1966 is due to the competition arising from the use of A4s on the nearby Glasgow – Aberdeen service, perhaps even a total disinterest in diesels.  Similarly the Duchesses and other ex LMS motive power on the morning Perth – Edinburgh service in the early 1960s were probably too early in the morning for anyone to be up in time to get a shot.

 

The Signalling Record Society photographic collection contains a number of views of the signal cabins along the route.  I believe these are available from the Kidderminster Railway Museum but, in spite of four enquiries, I have so far failed to obtain copies of any of these views.  The KRM webpage also features views of Loch Leven, Kelty and Cowdenbeath North Junction.  If you click on the “Mystery Photographs” page there is a link in the sentence “You can see previous pictures for which we now have answers by clicking here”.  Attempts to obtain copies of these views have similarly failed…..     …..in spite of the fact that it was me who identified the locations!  I also wonder if they have any other views that have not yet been identified.

 

The North British Railway Study Group have recently put a lot of their archive on line and they have views of all of the stations on the line.  It is my intention to obtain copies of some of these but I have not yet investigated how I go about this.  You need to be a member to view these images online.

 

About a year ago I bid on a photograph on eBay of the yards at Kelty.  Such views are so rate that my bid in excess of £20 failed to secure the said photograph!

 

The National Archives of Scotland hold quite a number of plans and other documentation relating to the line and this has been the source of most of my information.

 

Attached are a few images, from negatives I acquired on eBay.  The station is Glenfarg, obviously after closure of the line.  All of the intermediate stations with the exception of Kinross Junction were closed by Beeching in 1964.  However, closure of the through line was not part of the Beeching cuts.  This has already been covered earlier in this thread.

 

The train is the last V2 special of 5^th November 1966 and the views were supposedly taken somewhere between Mawcarse and Glenfarg.  If anyone can identify the exact locations I would be most grateful.  I suspect they might be two different locations as both lines are laid in flat bottom rail in the top view but the nearest line in the lower view has bullhead rail.  Also, the background in the upper view looks like the North Set to me!  The road vehicles in the first view should help.  I did not travel on this train but my late father did and we met him off the train at Inverkeithing on the return trip.  I remember the occasion well.  How could I not?  Fortunately, it had been such a success that a similar tour was run with 61278 the following month from Edinburgh to Carlisle out via Bathgate and back over the Waverley Route.  I’m glad to say I was on that tour and, when I get around to doing some modelling, both 61278 and 60836 will be traversing the Glenfarg line once again!

 

I don’t have a 1951 timetable but perusal of the 1950 Summer Timetable shows the services to be similar in nature.

 

The Glasgow services ran via the Devon Valley line via Kinross Junction to Alloaa and from there via the "other Forth Bridge" to Larbert.  Being ex NBR / LNER services, they normally ran to and from Glasgow Queen Street, although this was not always the case in BR days.

 

The Inverness services generally divided at Aviemore with one portion going via Carr Bridge and the other via Forres.  Similarly, the up services tended to join at Aviemore and, given that the Forres services left Inverness earlier this translated into four daytime departures from Inverness becoming two arrivals in Edinburgh.

 

I’m not sure of the train formations circa 1951 but in the later 1950s / early 1960s Edinburgh – Inverness trains generally carried three portions in the winter (Inverness via Carr Bridge, Inverness via Forres and a Perth portion) or two in summer (Inverness via Carr Bridge and Inverness via Forres).  The busier trains ran as separate trains for each route.

 

The summer 1950 timetable shows that the 9.25am Edinburgh – Inverness conveyed a restaurant car to Aviemore only.  Similarly, the 3.20pm ex Inverness carried a restaurant car from Aviemore, perhaps the same vehicle.

 

It should also be pointed out that the Inverness – Edinburgh service predated  the formation of the LMS and as such the Highland tended to hand over its Edinburgh portions to the North British at Perth and the Glasgow portions to the Caledonian.  Because of subsequent developments, there seems to be a misconception in some quarters that the Inverness - Edinburgh services ran to Princes Street via the Caledonian / LMS route through Gleneagles and Stirling.

 

The overnight service to and from Inverness ran from both originating points on Mondays to Friday nights only.  On Saturday nights the down train still ran from Edinburgh but only as far as Perth.  Sleeping cars were not introduced onto this service until June 1959.

 

Having grown up in Dunfermline I was lucky enough to travel over this line on a number of occasions as a child and have had a life long interest in it.  Information is sparse or difficult to get hold of.  I can only assume that the dearth of views of DP2 or Deltics working the car carriers in 1966 is due to the competition arising from the use of A4s on the nearby Glasgow – Aberdeen service, perhaps even a total disinterest in diesels.  Similarly the Duchesses and other ex LMS motive power on the morning Perth – Edinburgh service in the early 1960s were probably too early in the morning for anyone to be up in time to get a shot.

 

The Signalling Record Society photographic collection contains a number of views of the signal cabins along the route.  I believe these are available from the Kidderminster Railway Museum but, in spite of four enquiries, I have so far failed to obtain copies of any of these views.  The KRM webpage also features views of Loch Leven, Kelty and Cowdenbeath North Junction.  If you click on the “Mystery Photographs” page there is a link in the sentence “You can see previous pictures for which we now have answers by clicking here”.  Attempts to obtain copies of these views have similarly failed…..     …..in spite of the fact that it was me who identified the locations!  I also wonder if they have any other views that have not yet been identified.

 

The North British Railway Study Group have recently put a lot of their archive on line and they have views of all of the stations on the line.  It is my intention to obtain copies of some of these but I have not yet investigated how I go about this.  You need to be a member to view these images online.

 

About a year ago I bid on a photograph on eBay of the yards at Kelty.  Such views are so rate that my bid in excess of £20 failed to secure the said photograph!

 

The National Archives of Scotland hold quite a number of plans and other documentation relating to the line and this has been the source of most of my information.

 

Attached are a few images, from negatives I acquired on eBay.  The station is Glenfarg, obviously after closure of the line.  All of the intermediate stations with the exception of Kinross Junction were closed by Beeching in 1964.  However, closure of the through line was not part of the Beeching cuts.  This has already been covered earlier in this thread.

 

The train is the last V2 special of 5^th November 1966 and the views were supposedly taken somewhere between Mawcarse and Glenfarg.  If anyone can identify the exact locations I would be most grateful.  I suspect they might be two different locations as both lines are laid in flat bottom rail in the top view but the nearest line in the lower view has bullhead rail.  Also, the background in the upper view looks like the North Set to me!  The road vehicles in the first view should help.  I did not travel on this train but my late father did and we met him off the train at Inverkeithing on the return trip.  I remember the occasion well.  How could I not?  Fortunately, it had been such a success that a similar tour was run with 61278 the following month from Edinburgh to Carlisle out via Bathgate and back over the Waverley Route.  I’m glad to say I was on that tour and, when I get around to doing some modelling, both 61278 and 60836 will be traversing the Glenfarg line once again!

 

 I think you're right to have your doubts about the first of the V2 shots. The location bears a remarkable resemblance to the stretch S of Aberdeen - Cove,perhaps?

 

The morning Perth - Edinburgh train had been firmly in the grip of 63A Black 5s (and Jubilees) until the arrival of the Kingmoor Duchesses etc around 1960. The train would have been through Dunfermline (Lower) about 0730,I guess,with the loco generally returning with the 1012 ex-Wav (TC for I'ness).

 

DR

['CHARD]

Bridge of Earn, tantalisingly not on the Direct, although the station owed its existence to it.

 

 

Creative Commons Attribution Share-alike license 2.0

['CHARD]

Have we seen this previously?

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E289.gif

[pH]

'Chard, I'm getting the message "Forbidden. You do not have permission to access this document." when I click that link.

[Edwin_m]

 I think you're right to have your doubts about the first of the V2 shots. The location bears a remarkable resemblance to the stretch S of Aberdeen - Cove,perhaps?

I had a feeling it might be between Kinghorn and Seafield but I can't confirm it.  ECML north of Berwick also possible? 

[pH]

Similarly the Duchesses and other ex LMS motive power on the morning Perth – Edinburgh service in the early 1960s were probably too early in the morning for anyone to be up in time to get a shot.

Agreed, but there are pictures of the return working. For example, there's one of Perth Jubilee 45727 in Waverley on a Perth and Inverness train in 1957, and another of the same engine in almost the same position in 1959.

Edited January 1, 2016 by pH

[sulzer27jd]

The diagram information is good stuff. The timetable seems to have altered significantly over the period of the 1950's, which adds to the overall complexity of following the workings on this route.

 

It would be good if we could between us, find a way of collating this information. The source of photos would be great to have in a single place.

 

John

[sulzer27jd]

A number of carriage working documents are available from the Yahoo Group and are listed here - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/files/Carriage%20workings/ 

The 1948 and 1952 workings are available, but are extremely complicated to follow as the Inverness subdivisions via Forres and Carr bridge are all detailed. Sets of stock working over a two day cycle add a further level of complexity. What is impressive for us looking back, is that all of this was worked out without the use of computers and iPads!

 

I have been trying to tie-up the timetable, with the coaching stock and the loco rosters, but working with different years information is extremely challenging.

In the Harry Know book, Steam Days at Haymarket, there is reference to some of their workings;

The 7.40 am ex Waverley, returning 3.27 pm from Perth (on the 11.10 pm from Inverness) were worked by 64B Top Link turn 13.

The 4.06 pm ex Waverley, returning 7.05 pm from Perth (on the 3.20 pm from Inverness) were worked by 64B Link 2 turn 10.

 

As for the photos, I'm sure that all of us interested in this thread would welcome any reference to the line or it's services. From a personal point of view, images of the line and structures from Cowdenbeath to BofE are of interest, especially Glenfarg itself, but shots of the trains at any point in their journey are helpful.

 

John

[Lochinvar]

I fear that attempting to tie all the workings down may be even more difficult than you imagine,John. Through correspondence with Harry Knox,it has become clear that crew rostering,on the one hand,and loco. rostering,on the other,were not always the same. As you say,Harry lists the 3.XXpm up ex-Perth as a 64B working but it was quite definitely 63A that provided the loco. in the period covered by his book. (And,if I had a fiver for every time I saw 44720 or 44721 on that train,I might have been able to buy one,or both,of them on withdrawal!).

 

As for the 6.40 up ex-Perth,I suspect that the "Princess" working referred to by our 62C correspondent might not have been a "one-off". Early in 1962 I was commuting daily across the Forth in a service provided by the Admiralty (as it then was) for staff working at Rosyth Dockyard. Our N-bound crossing often co-incided with the 06.40 as it made its way up on to the Forth Bridge. Even from a distance,it was possible to make out the loco. type (though I wasn't close or expert enough to distinguish between a Scot and a Rebuilt Patriot). I can recall seeing a "Princess",but cannot now say whether it was only once.

 

We've sure breathed some life into this thread!

 

DR

[sulzer27jd]

My understanding of the Haymarket arrangements is that the top link had allocated engines, but the others did not, which would tie-in with your observation re the 63A locos working the train.

 

The revitalised thread is good.

['CHARD]

'Chard, I'm getting the message "Forbidden. You do not have permission to access this document." when I click that link.

 

That is very odd.  I can't either now, whereas yesterday I was able access the full set of WR diagrams as well.

[sulzer27jd]

In light of the re-ignition of this thread, I dug out my old copies of Trains Illustrated. Originally my father's, these have been a resource that I have returned to many times and they continue to give great pleasure and information. I checked through the 1955 - 1958 volumes, but i'm afraid was only able to come up with a couple of snippets of information;

 

October 1956 - Recently a Polmadie "Britannia" working the 9.25 a.m. from Crew into Perth at 5.25 p.m. has often been used on the 7.45 p.m. Perth - Edinburgh (Waveley). This has resulted in what is believed to be the first trips of "Britannia" Pacifics over the Forth Brisge. The Pacific returns to Perth next morning and then travels south on the 12.15 p.m. Perth - Euston.

 

December 1957 - The appearance of a Perth "Jubilee" on the 5.3 p.m. arrival in Waverley station from Perth is now a daily event; moreover, engines of this type have also been noted bringing in the new through service to Kings Cross - No. 45692 was in Waverley station on October 22, for example.

 

Not much out of the 4 years I went through, but at least it's something to contribute to the discussion.

 

John

['CHARD]

Haven't I seen photos of an A2 on a railtour taken at Kinross Jct, or have I finally gone mad?

 

aha!

https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=20700

 

Blairadam link to Geograph:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1828403

Edited January 2, 2016 by 'CHARD