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Hornby's 2013 Announcements


Andy Y

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Not sure exactly what you mean by "West Coast Mainline Mk1s", but Hornby is producing a train pack for Duke of Gloucester R3192 with its new Mk1s. DoG is being produced with a preservation era tender, so who is to say that the Mk1s will not be suitable for the preservation era - after all the Mk1s used in current charter sets were all used in BR service once upon a time, have only been repainted and upholstered since, and many are in steam era liveries. Hornby doesn't appear to say but I assume the 3 Mk1s in the pack will be in maroon so perfectly suited to current main line charter operations.

West Coast Mainline MK1s are similar to BR maroon Mk1s. They do not have the BR crest but have the West Coast Main Line name at one end and they have names like Christina, Paula and Jessica. Most of them seem to be open firsts and seconds.

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Should Hornby produce some West Coast Mainline Mk1s to go with preserved locomotives like the Duke of Gloucester that run on the main line rather than duplicate Mk1 coaches already produced by Bachmann?

 

 

Firstly West Coast Railway Co - like other charter operators use standard Mk1 types - and as was noted on this thread a very long time ago , the only three significant Mk1s not yet produced by Bachmann are a BSO, FO and one of the catering types (RB I think)

 

Secondly a quick look through WCRC's listing in the 2010 Ian Allen Rail Guide (sorry , I'm a touch out of date) shows that they have a BSK in Maroon as support coach for 61264, another in chocolate and cream for 6024 -  and indeed  a total of 15 BSKs in choc/cream or maroon . They have an SK in each of maroon and choc/cream , though most of their SKs are in their own lighter red.

 

Thirdly, while the backbone of their fleet - and Riviera Trains fleet - is shown as opens, with quite a few BSOs, the possibility of an FO  as an addition to the Railroad range is open to Hornby - indeed it and the BSO are the obvious targets for expanding the range. Its been said repeatedly since the announcement that these coaches are being tooled up as a replacement for the old Triang coaches to be used in Harry Potter sets, and corridor compartment stock = nostalgia, opens=modern day

 

And neither have Bachmann, Dapol or Heljan.

 

From the way you have phrased this, it looks like you think Hornby has some sort of obligation to provide a complete stud of every locomotive ever run on the Southern.

 

Interestingly, in a post below you, Hornby is implicitly criticised by someone else for "duplicating" Bachmann. They really do seem to be damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

 

Paul

 

Actually that post was by Robin as well. I think we've now had 10 days of regular "Have Hornby got it wrong?" posts in this thread from him, frequently ignoring extensive previous discussion of the relevant issue on the forum 

  

Hornby haven't announced an ex GE Buckjumper either (only 400, last to end 1962, operated throughout E Anglia, from Boston, Lincoln and Colwick and in Scotland) Or an N7 or an N5 or an N1 . Or a GE 2-4-2T . Or a J50. Or any LNER 0-6-0 (J15 or any GE type, J6, any NER type) Or , indeed any ex NER or ex Scottish loco at all. Have they announced a Caledonian 0-4-4T or an LNWR 0-62T? Nope

 

So why they should be reasonably be expected to deliver an E4 escapes me. Given the choice of a 2BIL, Duke of Gloucester, and an E4, and previous models from them and others, Hornby were never going to do an E4

 

I wouldn't put it entirely past Bachmann to startle us with an LNWR 0-6-2T or Cauliflower Goods - they have pedigree in this area (think Aspinall 2-4-2T, LNW G2) , and Dennis Lovatt is a third generation Wolverton railwayman and it shows in his choices

 

But overall Hornby's selection this year looks stronger than last year, it's a positive surprise , and we perhaps should start wondering what we will get from barwill to complement it.

 

I'm afraid the thread is getting to the stage where everything has been said but not everyone has had their say

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West Coast Mainline MK1s are similar to BR maroon Mk1s. They do not have the BR crest but have the West Coast Main Line name at one end and they have names like Christina, Paula and Jessica. Most of them seem to be open firsts and seconds.

 

I'm not particularly au fait with current charter stock, but presumably you are referring to the Mk1 coaches in maroon and branded "West Coast Railways". Hornby has recently produced Mk2d coaches in WCR livery, so it is possible that it will do so for Mk1s in due course. But my point was that it is prototypical for Hornby to produce its new Mk1s in traditional BR maroon (with or without crest) with a preserved DoG for charter operation on the current rail network. That would I suspect have the widest appeal and those who wanted something more specific can always use transfers.

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Have Hornby painted the olive or sage green Southern 2-BIL in the correct livery and, if so, how long did it last? 2114 was made between 1938 and 1939. According to page 38 of HMRS Livery Register no3 LSWR and Southern an electric train was seen in a vivid green shortly after Feb 1935but it was not until June 1938, after Bulleid's appointment, that production vehicles came out in this colour, and not until 1940 that it became general.

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Have Hornby painted the olive or sage green Southern 2-BIL in the correct livery?

From: http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/histfeat/semifastunit.html

 

"The approximate completion dates were June 1937 (2049-2057), August 1937 (2058-2065). September 1937 (2066-2071), October 1931 (2072-2100). November 1937 (2101-2103) and December 1937 (2104-2116)"

 

So seems correct.

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I agree that Hornby prefer locos with at least 10 wheels and that the 2-BIL is (at least in part) an exercise in Bandwagon-Jumping.

 

However, it doesn't need to be either/or and producing the '700' would be both logical and relatively easy as Hornby have already tooled the boiler, cab and tender for their T9.

 

In what way would a plain black 0-6-0 be more anonymous than the plain black 2-8-0 which Hornby developed that way out of their B1?    

The problem is that a T9 boiler+firebox is longer than that on a 700.

 

Roger

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The 00 Works made a ready to run E4. Before Airfix went into the hands of the receivers it was planning to make a Schools, a Lord Nelson, a U class an 02 and a G6. I have not seen any evidence of Airfix planning an E4. I have heard that Bachmann have measured all the Bluebell locomotives so it is possible we may see a model E4 one day.

.

 

How annoying, I must have missed it.

 

The E4s did survive ( even if in small numbers ) until quite late and are as good as any as a representative of a general purpose freight tank.  As mentioned above there were lots of 0-6-2Ts ( of many classes ) pottering around in the background.

 

Bigger than the Terriers and smaller than the Ivatt 2-6-2Ts and Standard Class (and Fairburn) 2-6-4Ts.

 

.

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I am surprised that Hornby decided to make the 2BIL as this was not in the top 50 of the 2011 00 gauge wish list.

Have to disagree Robin. I believe Margate saw the fantastic opportunity of following Bachmann's lead of 3rd rail EMUs. They seem to have botched the 4 VEP from all accounts, but undeterred they have committed to the 2 BIL as a follow on. The 2 BIL has all the credentials. A nice little two car train, with just two bodyshells to produce. The vehicle style is very much what Hornby are about, and it matches well with the steam era favoured by many modellers / collectors.

Agreed.

I agree that Hornby prefer locos with at least 10 wheels and that the 2-BIL is (at least in part) an exercise in Bandwagon-Jumping.

I think the notion of characterizing any decision to produce historical EMUs as 'bandwagon-jumping' is a little unfair.

 

There has long been a very strong interest from SR modellers to see non-contemporary third-rail EMUs. By definition, any regional interest, be it midland, eastern, western or southern is a minority. It's difficult for anything to overtop the plethora of former LNER constituent steam locomotives in recent polls.

 

It may well be true that Hornby waited to see how well the 4CEP did. The story of the 4CEP model is long and troubled and Bachmann Branch-Line was heavily criticized during the delayed development process.

 

Since then Hornby have done the 5BEL, 4VEP and 2BIL and Bachmann still have just the 4CEP. (Bachmann of course do several other regional early DMUs.) In much the same vein Kernow commissioned the 2H (Class 205) and while a DMU it fits into the Southern xMU picture.

 

To me, addressing the evidently strong market for Southern multiple units is behaviour that seems more laudable and sensible than reflexive.

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The story of the 4CEP model is long and troubled and Bachmann Branch-Line was heavily criticized during the delayed development process.Since then Hornby have done the 5BEL, 4VEP and 2BIL and Bachmann still have just the 4CEP.

Bachmann 2EPB and MLV??

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Agreed.

I think the notion of characterizing any decision to produce historical EMUs as 'bandwagon-jumping' is a little unfair.

 

......

 

 

It may well be true that Hornby waited to see how well the 4CEP did. The story of the 4CEP model is long and troubled and Bachmann Branch-Line was heavily criticized during the delayed development process.

 

Since then Hornby have done the 5BEL, 4VEP and 2BIL and Bachmann still have just the 4CEP. (Bachmann of course do several other regional early DMUs.) In much the same vein Kernow commissioned the 2H (Class 205) and while a DMU it fits into the Southern xMU picture.

 

......

 

 

In fairness , Bachmann have also done the 2EPB. The 4CEP had a genesis even longer and more fraught than Hornby's B17, and we got less information during the wait than we got from Hornby with the B17, although the model seems to be reckoned a good'un, and was certainly ground-breaking .

 

In many respects Bachmann - 2EPB , Hornby - 2BIL is what you'd expect from the form book.  Bachmann have never themselves tooled any pre1945 coaches (the Colletts and LMS vehicles were inherited tooling I think) and the new Railroad Mk1s are Hornby's first post 1945 loco-hauled coaches for at least a decade , unless you count the Pendolino stock and the Javelins  (brand new high speed multiple units are another traditional Hornby niche). Bachmann do LMS/BR , Hornby do Southern

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Hornby and its predecessors always seemed to favour the Southern Railway. In the 1950s Hornby-Dublo's only Southern Region item was the D1 Meat Van while Tri-ang were making the SR 4SUB, green mainline and suburban coaches, a BR SR saddle tank, an SR utility van, Pullman cars for the Golden Arrow, an L1, an airsmoothed Battle of Britain and buildings which looked like Southern Region ones. Hornby seems to have continued in that tradition. For me the 2-BIL has a nostalgic appeal because it reminds me of when I first opened a Tri-ang catalogue and saw the Tri-ang 4-SUB. Tri-ang first made green coaches in 1953 which was three years before British Railways repainted its coaches that colour so they must have been based on pre-nationalisation Southern Railway malachite green coaches that had been varnished rather than repainted crimson and cream or maroon. Southern modellers would not have got very far without Tri-ang and its successors.

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Southern modellers would not have got very far without Tri-ang and its successors.

Do you mean that they would completely ignore the various kits of Southern locomotives and stock that have been available over the past years?

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Yes, Bachmann have enabled both a 2-car suburban "popper" e.g. Bromley North, Addiscombe, Tattenham Corner, Wimbledon-West Croydon, and a main line combo up to a full 13-car boat train. The 2-BIL may be the start of something big in heritage units - and none the worse for that. Both manufacturers are to be congratulated for new ideas, with a degree of risk.

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Guest oldlugger

When will we see a British electric loco with scale working (live) pantographs from one of the UK manufacturers? I can't believe the prices of some of the current 4mm OHE locos, with inaccurate and useless pantographs that either need expensive replacements or scratch built items. Have a look at one of the current SNCF BB 7200 locos produced by LS Models in HO scale; highly accurate, scale and wired for overhead current collection, and at a comparative price to a certain ex LNER loco currently on sale in the UK (the photos are about half way down the web page):-

 

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53043&start=15

 

Now that's what I call a model electric loco; it's fantastic!

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Now that's what I call a model electric loco; it's fantastic!

That looks absolutely exquisite. Be interesting to know what the RRP is compared with say the Bachmann 85.

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The simple answer to that question is: when there is a real and palpable demand for working OHLE on British outline models.

 

I've seen some amazing British layouts with OHLE but I've rarely come across anyone who asks for working OHLE. There doesn't seem to be the appetite for it in Britain that there is elsewhere, and even then it's still much of a niche subject abroad in comparison to the two rail systems which are widely available.

 

Of course, if enough people get together to ask for it, then it may happen. But from Hornby or Bachmann? Can't see it myself, particularly when the former don't offer anything OHLE to the same standard Bachmann do, and the latter have produced some excellent models, but pointedly without working OHLE.

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That looks absolutely exquisite. Be interesting to know what the RRP is compared with say the Bachmann 85.

Hobby Sommer web site lists BB7200 at 235.8 Euro (around £202).

 

Hattons Class 85 price is £86.

 

This may help explain the difference in quality of some parts.

 

David

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That looks absolutely exquisite. Be interesting to know what the RRP is compared with say the Bachmann 85.

Hello Russ,

 

It retails for about £180 but the quality more than justifies the price when you consider £160 + for the LNER electric I referred to earlier, that needs a range of mods to bring it into the 21st Century. The LS Models BB 7200 is spot on in terms of accuracy, and whether you are bothered about current collection or not (SAC Martin), have a look at the incredible detail of those pantographs. Now I don't recall any current UK OHE model with that specification. German Ebay has them for sale at the above price.

 

Cheers

Simon

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Hello Russ,It retails for about £180 but the quality more than justifies the price when you consider £160 + for the LNER electric I referred to earlier, that needs a range of mods to bring it into the 21st Century. The LS Models BB 7200 is spot on in terms of accuracy...

Thanks Simon.

 

I'm not familiar with LS Models. Are they very much a niche manufacturer or can they be compared with the likes of Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol/Heljan? Or have i misunderstood and they're a retailer in the Kernow/Hattons/Olivia's Trains mould that has taken to commissioning models from a mainstream supplier, and if so, whom?

 

Russell

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Guest oldlugger

Thanks Simon.

 

I'm not familiar with LS Models. Are they very much a niche manufacturer or can they be compared with the likes of Hornby/Bachmann/Dapol/Heljan? Or have i misunderstood and they're a retailer in the Kernow/Hattons/Olivia's Trains mould that has taken to commissioning models from a mainstream supplier, and if so, whom?

 

Russell

Hello again Russ,

 

They are a Belgian company with spin off companies such as ACME (who produce highly detailed Italian HO electrics). They are not an affiliated company like the ones you mention, but are much smaller and more specialised than say Roco or Fleischmann. Their models are usually limited runs and many have to be reserved in advance. Although expensive, I think they compare very favourably in terms of price with British manufacturers offerings, when you see the detail and the quality. Now how about a class 87 produced to this standard with working pantographs, regardless of the apparent lack of interest from British modellers in live OHLE (hint, hint)?

 

Cheers

Simon

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West Coast Mainline MK1s are similar to BR maroon Mk1s. They do not have the BR crest but have the West Coast Main Line name at one end and they have names like Christina, Paula and Jessica. Most of them seem to be open firsts and seconds.

 

 

Firstly West Coast Railway Co - like other charter operators use standard Mk1 types - and as was noted on this thread a very long time ago , the only three significant Mk1s not yet produced by Bachmann are a BSO, FO and one of the catering types (RB I think)

 

Secondly a quick look through WCRC's listing in the 2010 Ian Allen Rail Guide (sorry , I'm a touch out of date) shows that they have a BSK in Maroon as support coach for 61264, another in chocolate and cream for 6024 -  and indeed  a total of 15 BSKs in choc/cream or maroon . They have an SK in each of maroon and choc/cream , though most of their SKs are in their own lighter red.

 

 

 

 

 

 

WCRC also have a couple of BCK's 99304/21266 and RMB's 1860/1861/99311 also (Both types available from Bachmann). WCRC operated RMB 1840 is in green. Pretty certain that all the WCRC Mk1's are on Commonwealth bogies, BICBW.

 

Livery details can be a minefield. Most have WCRC branding - they've used two different fonts. As Robin says, some are named. Some also carried (stil carry?) the Hogwart's Express crest.

 

For extra WCRC variety, you could chuck in some Bachmann Mk1 Pullmans in WCRC maroon.

 

But neither Bachmann or Hornby have yet carried out a fairly obvious, but simple detail change that has been apparent on Mk1's for most of their working life and that's removal of the footsteps on the ends.

 

Cheers,

Mick

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It's fair to say that both the Heljan 86 and the Olivias Trains EM1 have been amongst the weakest modern image new toolings of the last decade. The fact that the EM1 is twice the price of a Bachmann 85 tells its own story - it is a niche model with a very limited operating range , but even so Hattons and Rails have managed to commission the Ivatt Co-Co diesels , which are also pretty specialised exotic niche models , and retail them at £125 with discounts down to £100. Olivia's Trains pricing is considerably out of line with general British RTR prices, and there isn't superior quality , so I certainly don't regard them as any kind of price benchmark 

 

I think those who want electric locos would be very happy with seeing classes 86, 87, and 90 redone to the standard of the Bachmann 85. But the reality is that the demand for the 85 has not been spectacul;ar , and the 350 Desiro, which I admit I thought was a bold and risky model , is already being discounted. so I doubt the 25kV AC market is really there. That matches what I see in layout terms: overhead electric layouts are few and far between , and there must be three or four times as many 3rd rail layouts out there. And I don't recall anyone ever building one with live overhead. Quite apart from anything else, live overhead is more or less incompatible with DCC , and people running 25kV overhead layouts are pretty likely to be into DCC  

 

Hornby's judgement is that Duke of Gloucester and Cock o the North are both better commercial propositions than retooling any of their 5 electric locos to modern standards (none of them even have a decent modern mechanism such as is fitted to every current generation diesel model). Unfortunately I'm afraid they're almost certainly right . I say that as someone who was formerly actively involved with a project to build a layout with overhead electrification and who lives in 25kV territory. However it's worth pointing out that that project wouldn't have run any electric locos - only EMUs - and if you're modelling overhead electric railways in Britain then you need units, at least as much as locos and quite possibly a good deal more.

 

Most of us are not up for building enough Bratchill kits for 321s  to run them in squadron service - especially not in First Great Eastern livery, which Bratchill Model's painters initially refused to do as "too hard". You have to run the units in pairs to be credible, that virtually forces you into DCC and rules out live overhead - and if your staple train is 8 cars at 20m a car , you're talking about 8' long trains in squadron service and that means a big layout. Run loco hauled and you have have at least 10' trains , as modern image modellers simply won't accept sub scale length formations - they're viewed as on a par with short-length coaches  (London/Norwich trains are  loco plus 9 + DVT from memory, ECML trains are longer, and when they were loco haulage, WCML trains were longer again. Freightliners are longer still). In some respects the train lengths suggest 2mm scale is the better option, not 4mm. That's certainly the case with anything that involves a Eurostar 

 

Accurate pantographs would be welcome, and I'm not defending Olivia'sTrains failings. Working ones would be classed with gimmicks like working fans and opening doors as wasteful and unwanted tooling cost. And I think a £200 electric loco would be a commercial failure. To be honest , I've been waiting for someone to come badly unstuck on one of these exclusive commissions of niche prototypes and Olivia's Trains 1500V electrics look like one of the best candidates (The other candidate is the Bachmann/Rails Ivatt Co-Co , because Hattons/Dapol got theirs to market a year ago and I don't think the market will bear 2 models of such a niche item. Sheffield could be very short of model shops if things go badly) 

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Guest oldlugger

It's fair to say that both the Heljan 86 and the Olivias Trains EM1 have been amongst the weakest modern image new toolings of the last decade. The fact that the EM1 is twice the price of a Bachmann 85 tells its own story - it is a niche model with a very limited operating range , but even so Hattons and Rails have managed to commission the Ivatt Co-Co diesels , which are also pretty specialised exotic niche models , and retail them at £125 with discounts down to £100. Olivia's Trains pricing is considerably out of line with general British RTR prices, and there isn't superior quality , so I certainly don't regard them as any kind of price benchmark 

 

I think those who want electric locos would be very happy with seeing classes 86, 87, and 90 redone to the standard of the Bachmann 85. But the reality is that the demand for the 85 has not been spectacul;ar , and the 350 Desiro, which I admit I thought was a bold and risky model , is already being discounted. so I doubt the 25kV AC market is really there. That matches what I see in layout terms: overhead electric layouts are few and far between , and there must be three or four times as many 3rd rail layouts out there. And I don't recall anyone ever building one with live overhead. Quite apart from anything else, live overhead is more or less incompatible with DCC , and people running 25kV overhead layouts are pretty likely to be into DCC  

 

Hornby's judgement is that Duke of Gloucester and Cock o the North are both better commercial propositions than retooling any of their 5 electric locos to modern standards (none of them even have a decent modern mechanism such as is fitted to every current generation diesel model). Unfortunately I'm afraid they're almost certainly right . I say that as someone who was formerly actively involved with a project to build a layout with overhead electrification and who lives in 25kV territory. However it's worth pointing out that that project wouldn't have run any electric locos - only EMUs - and if you're modelling overhead electric railways in Britain then you need units, at least as much as locos and quite possibly a good deal more.

 

Most of us are not up for building enough Bratchill kits for 321s  to run them in squadron service - especially not in First Great Eastern livery, which Bratchill Model's painters initially refused to do as "too hard". You have to run the units in pairs to be credible, that virtually forces you into DCC and rules out live overhead - and if your staple train is 8 cars at 20m a car , you're talking about 8' long trains in squadron service and that means a big layout. Run loco hauled and you have have at least 10' trains , as modern image modellers simply won't accept sub scale length formations - they're viewed as on a par with short-length coaches  (London/Norwich trains are  loco plus 9 + DVT from memory, ECML trains are longer, and when they were loco haulage, WCML trains were longer again. Freightliners are longer still). In some respects the train lengths suggest 2mm scale is the better option, not 4mm. That's certainly the case with anything that involves a Eurostar 

 

Accurate pantographs would be welcome, and I'm not defending Olivia'sTrains failings. Working ones would be classed with gimmicks like working fans and opening doors as wasteful and unwanted tooling cost. And I think a £200 electric loco would be a commercial failure. To be honest , I've been waiting for someone to come badly unstuck on one of these exclusive commissions of niche prototypes and Olivia's Trains 1500V electrics look like one of the best candidates (The other candidate is the Bachmann/Rails Ivatt Co-Co , because Hattons/Dapol got theirs to market a year ago and I don't think the market will bear 2 models of such a niche item. Sheffield could be very short of model shops if things go badly) 

 

So why are LS Models electrics selling out as soon as new models are released, with modellers scouring Ebay on the Continent for used examples? DCC is compatible with overhead systems - just take a minimal trawl through Google to find examples. I'd hardly call working pantographs a gimmick; these have been standard practice in Europe since the early days of Märklin; it's just that UK railway modellers have never had enough quality OHE's or catenary to entice them into a rather interesting aspect of railway operation, like their European cousins have had for years. Pushing the boundaries and taking chances are what keeps companies exciting and interesting. We've had countless steam and diesel locos in model form, so why not some more electrics? Admittedly, BR and the big four did not have the variety and numbers of OHE's as some other countries, but there were still a fair few classes. I think British modellers haven't gone head over heals for electrics because there just isn't the support there for them.

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