Whats on your 2mm Work bench

[A. Bastow]

Hi all.

 

Apart from the L&Y class 28 (pictures in the any question answered thread) I have also been working on some L&Y coaches. 
 

I was undecided how to achieve the detail so I did two versions. One where the doors in the coach sides were fully etched through on all sides, allowing the side itself to be the half etched bit and the beading along the side of the coach is captured as un-etched. There is also a strengthener layer to fold in place behind, which helps location on the chassis. 
The other is where I left the beading and door outlines as un-etched, thinking that it will look right when built.

 

Here is the first example with the fully etched door outline. 
 

It doesn’t look pretty, but this is from the very first etched sheet I have designed so I expected some errors and things to learn from. 
 

The coach floor and chassis look the part but I think that the artwork needs a tweak. The truss rods should really be separate. I was in two minds about the footboards but seeing them in the picture actually helps complete the look. Some doors are like loose teeth, another thing to correct going forward. 

 

Plenty learned! 
 

Constructive criticism is very much welcome!
 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by A. Bastow

[Bryn]

 

.... and the other pair from the Revolution trio. 

 

Rust patches on the last tank was created by applying neat acrylic with a sponge, the rest of the weathering was brush applied oils.

[Nig H]

Here are some shots on my LNWR 19" Goods with all the construction work finished. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want to add a bit more weight over the drivers as the loco seems a bit nose heavy. Then it will be ready for painting, crewing and coaling.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

[Coal Tank]

2 hours ago, Nig H said:

Here are some shots on my LNWR 19" Goods with all the construction work finished. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want to add a bit more weight over the drivers as the loco seems a bit nose heavy. Then it will be ready for painting, crewing and coaling.

 

Nigel Hunt

 

Nice Nigel

[John57sharp]

Handsome loco that. Well done.

John

[Klaus ojo]

On 04/10/2021 at 00:00, t-b-g said:

The introduction of this gearbox couldn't have come at a better time.

 

Although I work mainly in 4mm EM and dabble a bit in 7mm, my 2mm experience is almost nil. However, I have a friend, Laurie Adams, who is one of "you lot" and having admired his Yeovil Town project I have offered to help him out a bit. He recently obtained a few locos, finished and part built and as there was a Dean Goods amongst the part built ones, I said I would have a go. Initial thoughts were that the tender was complete apart from couplings, a drawbar and a drive shaft from the motor, that the loco mechanism was well advanced and just needed the drive shaft so me efforts would be in building the body, for which there were some components already made, or supplied from the NBrass etched kit. A new footplate, valances and cab were there, to remove the main discrepancies in the kit, which was supposed to go on a RTR chassis and had a rather dodgy wheelbase and widths.

 

Sadly, the initial optimism was dashed as the more I looked, the more I saw that was not quite right. The mechanism and gearbox were not quite square and the frames were not much better. Even the tender needed new outside frames as the old ones were quite thick and the wheel bossed rubbed on them and had no sideplay at all.

 

After much fiddling, I ended up with a free running set of frames and wheels and the motor and drive shaft seemed OK but the loco still wouldn't run well enough to satisfy my/our requirements and it seemed to be down to the home made gearbox. The gears had a bit too much play and could rub and scrape against each other and the sideplates. The way it was built and soldered in made any investigation almost impossible.

 

So this evening, the old gearbox came out and one of the new ones went in. It has transformed the mechanism from scratchy and scraping to silky smooth. I won't know the final result until the drive shaft is refitted and the gearbox is anchored in the frames but it just feels so much better now. As a bonus, it gives room in the firebox for a flywheel too, which the old one had no room for.

 

I have no experience of 2mm components so I am hoping that the motor and gear combination gives good running at slow speeds. If not, the 38:1 or two stage reduction version might be better but it is so close now that I want to press on and see how she goes.

 

So well done to those who have produced the gearbox. It seems to me to be a real top quality item.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Klaus ojo]

The 2mm SA gearbox came quite right for this Worsley Works MR Deeley compound.

I had no problems with insulation as I glued it to a PCB spacer to stay at its place.

Everything is nice and square (which is not guaranteed at my self made gearboxes these kits usually need)

The loco may need some more parts and wheels the right size, however, I always feel fine when "it works in principle"...

 

cheers 

Klaus

Edited October 16, 2021 by Klaus ojo
typo

[Yorkshire Square]

That's a great idea with the PCB to fix the box, Klaus!

[t-b-g]

52 minutes ago, Klaus ojo said:

The 2mm SA gearbox came quite right for this Worsley Works MR Deeley compound.

I had no problems with insulation as I glued it to a PCB spacer to stay at its place.

Everything is nice and square (which is not guaranteed at my self made gearboxes these kits usually need)

The loco may need some more parts and wheels the right size, however, I always feel fine when "it works in principle"...

 

cheers 

Klaus

 

Very nice. Have you replaced the worm wheel with a metal one? Yours doesn't look like the one supplied with the box. 

[Klaus ojo]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

Very nice. Have you replaced the worm wheel with a metal one? Yours doesn't look like the one supplied with the box. 

Oh! Sorry for having forgotten to tell you:

 I did not have an imperial muff in my gloat box and so could not take the worm gear set as suggested. So instead I took a mod 0.3 28teeth gear with 3mm hole from 2mm SA shop and an  OD 3mm mod 0.3 worm (from  MicromotorEU?  The brass worm needed to be glued onto the 1.5mm axle)

As I did not get the imperial muffs yet I could not tell if this is worse or better but I´d assume that the plastic worm might be less noisy.

Oh, and you need a rather large reamer for opening the hole for the axle muff.

cheers

Klaus

Edited October 16, 2021 by Klaus ojo

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Klaus ojo said:

Oh! Sorry for having forgotten to tell you:

 I did not have an imperial muff in my gloat box and so could not take the worm gear set as suggested. So instead I took a mod 0.3 28teeth gear with 3mm hole from 2mm SA shop and an  OD 3mm mod 0.3 worm (from  MicromotorEU?  The brass worm needed to be glued onto the 1.5mm axle)

As I did not get the imperial muffs yet I could not tell if this is worse or better but I´d assume that the plastic worm might be less noisy.

Oh, and you need a rather large reamer for opening the hole for the axle muff.

cheers

Klaus

 Thanks Klaus.

 

You are right, it took a fair amount of opening out of the holes. As most of my modelling is in 4mm and 7mm, I have a good selection of larger reamers and broaches.

 

Mine has been modified since I took the earlier photo. Once the drive shaft was fitted to the mechanism and it was being run by the motor rather than by my fingers, it was clear that the flywheel was not 100% true. The flywheel was creating a vibration that was quite noticable. So the flywheel came out while I decided whether to try to make a new one. However, on testing without a flywheel in, the loco ran quite smoothly and quietly, so a decision was made to pack extra lead into the firebox rather than try another flywheel.

 

The hole in the plastic axle muff for the stub axles in mine isn't exactly true but as the wheels run in bearings in the frames, the loco runs true while the axlebox bobs up and down ever so slightly inside it. 

[Klaus ojo]

Hmm...

...so I just had luck and my muff was concentric or I intuitively ended so after having played around with the parts?

The gearbox in my eyes should make things easier and not more complicated. So far for me this did work well.

 

This is my first loco with motor in the tender and drive via cardan shaft. So much to learn. And indeed this is the very purpose.  My loco is not yet running perfectly smooth due to the too long silicon shafts causing vibrations just like your flywheel. 

cheers

Klaus

 

 

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Klaus ojo said:

Hmm...

...so I just had luck and my muff was concentric or I intuitively ended so after having played around with the parts?

The gearbox in my eyes should make things easier and not more complicated. So far for me this did work well.

 

This is my first loco with motor in the tender and drive via cardan shaft. So much to learn. And indeed this is the very purpose.  My loco is not yet running perfectly smooth due to the too long silicon shafts causing vibrations just like your flywheel. 

cheers

Klaus

 

 

 

The muff I used was a second hand one removed from the original mechanism that came my way. It may be that more recent ones are better.

 

It is my first tender mounted motor too, as well as my first 2mm loco. It has taken lots of false starts and changes to get it to run. It has had a round 7 or 8 drive shafts as I had lots of problems getting the length right and trying to lose vibration. I ended up talking to (and listening to) Jerry Clifford and using "Top E" guitar string wire, with a small loop bent into each end, running in a slotted tube on the gearbox shaft and the motor shaft. It added a flexibility and "give" that the previous more rigid drive shafts didn't. As an added bonus, when the loco is running, it becomes almost invisible too.  

[65179]

3 hours ago, Klaus ojo said:

Hmm...

...so I just had luck and my muff was concentric or I intuitively ended so after having played around with the parts?

The gearbox in my eyes should make things easier and not more complicated. So far for me this did work well.

 

This is my first loco with motor in the tender and drive via cardan shaft. So much to learn. And indeed this is the very purpose.  My loco is not yet running perfectly smooth due to the too long silicon shafts causing vibrations just like your flywheel. 

cheers

Klaus

 

 

 

There are different muffs. Those specifically designed for gears should be concentric whilst those for non-driven coupled axles (3-100) or tender/pony/bogie wheels (3-103) may not be.  If you find that one of the various muffs designed for gears  is not concentric then you should ask for a replacement.

 

Klaus, how much scope is there for adjusting your cylinders?  The piston should move back on forth along a line passing through the centre of the driven axle (with in your case the tail rods along that same axis). If your cylinders are fixed in place then it looks like they need a little adjustment.

 

Simon

[t-b-g]

58 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

There are different muffs. Those specifically designed for gears should be concentric whilst those for non-driven coupled axles (3-100) or tender/pony/bogie wheels (3-103) may not be.  If you find that one of the various muffs designed for gears  is not concentric then you should ask for a replacement.

 

Klaus, how much scope is there for adjusting your cylinders?  The piston should move back on forth along a line passing through the centre of the driven axle (with in your case the tail rods along that same axis). If your cylinders are fixed in place then it looks like they need a little adjustment.

 

Simon

 

My knowledge of the products provided by the Association is limited but when I looked at the muffs that would fit the new gearbox, the standard axle one was the only one I could see. The gear has a 1/8th inch hole and the only gear muffs that size have a washer like rim around them, which makes them unsuitable for the gearbox unless you cut the rim off, which could lead to a rough bearing surface.

 

If I have got this all wrong I apologise but going on the selection of muffs in the "gloat box" of Laurie Adams, the standard 1/8th O/S diameter axle bush seemed to be the only one which could be used with that tgear in the gearbox. The metric 3mm one would have been be suitable but I think the hole in the gear would be too big. Mind you, the gear was a tight fit on the 1/8th muff so maybe the 3mm version is the one we should have used. The instructions provided didn't specify, so we went for the best one we had available. 

[Klaus ojo]

@ Simon

yes, the "cylinders and slide bars unit" is not plumb in its rests and needs some more tweaking as well.

I have to admit that I did not entirely understand how the etch is meant to construct  the motionwork.

So I took a brass tube for the cylinders with the downside that the slide bars had to be mounted "somehow differently". There is no instruction for these kits and so I do as I think and can. You can develop a lot of skills with Allen´s scratch aid kits.  That´s the fun. 

The cross heads e.g. are too flimsy to have correct support on the slide bars which is causing some more need for tweaking.

The loco should have 14mm wheels as well and currently has 12mm. This may contribute to a slightly strange appearance as well.

And reading your advice I am now sure that I´ve ordered the wrong muffs because I can´t read... That´s the way it goes.

 

@Tony (?)

it is always fun with the mix of pieces with metric and with imperial standards - I suppose as a consequence of availability of tooling, suppliers  etc.  The worm gear set currently is imperial and 100DP (approx. mod 0.25 or so) and needs a 1/8" muff while the other gears are metric and want 3mm muffs. However, it works together and that´s the important thing. 

 

cheers 

Klaus

Edited October 17, 2021 by Klaus ojo
additional info

[Izzy]

Strangely, over time I have found that the standard plain 1/8” muff is better and generally more consistent that those specifically meant for gears, so is now all I use. They aren’t all that expensive thankfully if you have to lose a few. I guess they are drawn & cut to length mouldings I.e. tubing. The brass MO 0.25 worms - 3-370/1 - run nice with the 100dp worm wheels but are probably too long for the gearbox and not so easy too cut to length as the plastic variety.

 

Bob

[t-b-g]

9 hours ago, Klaus ojo said:

@ Simon

yes, the "cylinders and slide bars unit" is not plumb in its rests and needs some more tweaking as well.

I have to admit that I did not entirely understand how the etch is meant to construct  the motionwork.

So I took a brass tube for the cylinders with the downside that the slide bars had to be mounted "somehow differently". There is no instruction for these kits and so I do as I think and can. You can develop a lot of skills with Allen´s scratch aid kits.  That´s the fun. 

The cross heads e.g. are too flimsy to have correct support on the slide bars which is causing some more need for tweaking.

The loco should have 14mm wheels as well and currently has 12mm. This may contribute to a slightly strange appearance as well.

And reading your advice I am now sure that I´ve ordered the wrong muffs because I can´t read... That´s the way it goes.

 

@Tony (?)

it is always fun with the mix of pieces with metric and with imperial standards - I suppose as a consequence of availability of tooling, suppliers  etc.  The worm gear set currently is imperial and 100DP (approx. mod 0.25 or so) and needs a 1/8" muff while the other gears are metric and want 3mm muffs. However, it works together and that´s the important thing. 

 

cheers 

Klaus

 

Hello Klaus. You are right, I am a Tony!

 

I think the cylinders and motion on your Compound would be improved if they didn't slope down slightly at the front end. The real ones actually sloped up very slightly at the front. If you could alter that, your piston rod would end up in a line with the wheel centre.

 

Other than that, they look fine to me.

[Izzy]

Although they won’t work with the new gearbox (od is far too large), I suppose it might be worth mentioning that worms made out of 2ba bolts/studding - if you have the tools, or can produce 2ba with dies etc - will mesh quite nicely with 0.25mod/100dp. Different tooth form of course, but when push comes to shove……

 

Bob

[65179]

On 17/10/2021 at 01:09, Klaus ojo said:

@ Simon

yes, the "cylinders and slide bars unit" is not plumb in its rests and needs some more tweaking as well.

I have to admit that I did not entirely understand how the etch is meant to construct  the motionwork.

So I took a brass tube for the cylinders with the downside that the slide bars had to be mounted "somehow differently". There is no instruction for these kits and so I do as I think and can. You can develop a lot of skills with Allen´s scratch aid kits.  That´s the fun. 

The cross heads e.g. are too flimsy to have correct support on the slide bars which is causing some more need for tweaking.

The loco should have 14mm wheels as well and currently has 12mm. This may contribute to a slightly strange appearance as well.

And reading your advice I am now sure that I´ve ordered the wrong muffs because I can´t read... That´s the way it goes.

 

cheers 

Klaus

 

I wasn't meaning to sound critical Klaus. You've the makings of a nice loco there. I think 13mm wheels would be a good compromise if you are thinking of changing them.

 

For the crosshead have you investigated the new one available from N Brass that Nigel Hunt drew our attention to on here? It may be another way to get a more solid crosshead. See also Keith Armes's 18/6/19 post on the VAG showing how he does his.

 

I've one of these etches in the to do pile to see if I can produce an LMS compound from it. I remember thinking that those slidebars needed beefing up with an extra etch layer to make them robust. That said, Mark Cox had a nice one built as intended on his Witney Euston layout: http://www.2mm.org.uk/layouts/witneyeuston/index.htm

but I suspect you are aware of that one already.

 

Regards

Simon

[Klaus ojo]

Thanks Simon,

that trick of Keith Armes with the opened wire loop will help me to keep the piston rod centric.

Or some very similar solution. 

I am having some of the parts mentioned in that thread, however, decided to have a go with the parts coming with the kit as a first run. It is possibly a good idea to modify the slide bars as well and not only the 2 crosshead parts. 

 

To illustrate the source of the problem to other readers here a photo of a more previous state of building. Here everything still is fitting to the slots. It will possibly not keep this neat alignment after some mistreatment during soldering and bending the slide bars... (Just to avoid any misunderstanding: I like these kits. Sometimes you need to find your own solutions) 

 

I think the loco needs larger wheels a) because the chassis is lopsided ( nose up) with the small wheels, b) despite all filing and changing to 6mm wheels the bogie wheels still don´t have enough side play and c) the wheels are stolen from another project.  The loco now runs relatively smoothly and so it is time to continue with my Bavarian CIII. I am still rather ignorant of the refinements of British railway companies and their livery. So it is possibly a good idea to choose the proper livery later. 

 

Thanks for the link to Witney Euston. I was aware of that layout but not that a Deeley Compond is running there.

 

cheers

Klaus

 

  . 

[Nig H]

On 17/10/2021 at 01:09, Klaus ojo said:

@ Simon

yes, the "cylinders and slide bars unit" is not plumb in its rests and needs some more tweaking as well.

I have to admit that I did not entirely understand how the etch is meant to construct  the motionwork.

So I took a brass tube for the cylinders with the downside that the slide bars had to be mounted "somehow differently". There is no instruction for these kits and so I do as I think and can. You can develop a lot of skills with Allen´s scratch aid kits.  That´s the fun. 

The cross heads e.g. are too flimsy to have correct support on the slide bars which is causing some more need for tweaking.

The loco should have 14mm wheels as well and currently has 12mm. This may contribute to a slightly strange appearance as well.

And reading your advice I am now sure that I´ve ordered the wrong muffs because I can´t read... That´s the way it goes.

 

@T

Klaus

Hi Klaus,

 

Nice work so far, and nice to see a 2mm scale Midland Compound. You mention 14mm driving wheels but I recommend you use 13mm drivers. With the overscale flange, 14mm won't fit in the rear splashers, and only just in the front splashers, assuming the kit is exactly to scale. I tried some 14mm drivers in my MR class 483 (whichich is about the same size in this repect) and they were just too big, whereas 13mm fitted and looked about right in my opinion. Here's a pic of my 483 for you to judge.

 

 

Then you can use bigger bogie wheels too. I think 6mm diameter ones would look too small. On my loco the frames are angled in slightly towards the front end from near the front step, a trick I copied from a John Greenwood T9 4-4-0. This allows more sideplay for the bogie. It might be a bit late to do this with your loco though.

 

I look forward to you posting more updates soon.

 

Nigel Hunt 

[Klaus ojo]

Nigel, Simon, Bob,

your hints are much appreciated and I am getting the imperession I should bring it to a showable status.

It will not be the last loco, so the next one with bogie will have a taper for some sideplay.

I´ve been playing a bit with wheel sizes and agree that the 6.5mm bogie wheels look better.

I´ve also simply slipped rims over the 12mm wheels. It looks like there is even space for 14mm drivers (lower picture) but this looks slightly too big while 13mm seems too small (upper picture. If someone would have told me such things a year before I would have called him a rivet counter.)

I don´t want to promise too much, but when it has buffers and a dome and a nice black or red underwear I might show it again.

Yours

Klaus

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Klaus ojo
photos added

[65179]

13 hours ago, Klaus ojo said:

Nigel, Simon, Bob,

your hints are much appreciated and I am getting the imperession I should bring it to a showable status.

It will not be the last loco, so the next one with bogie will have a taper for some sideplay.

I´ve been playing a bit with wheel sizes and agree that the 6.5mm bogie wheels look better.

I´ve also simply slipped rims over the 12mm wheels. It looks like there is even space for 14mm drivers (lower picture) but this looks slightly too big while 13mm seems too small (upper picture. If someone would have told me such things a year before I would have called him a rivet counter.)

I don´t want to promise too much, but when it has buffers and a dome and a nice black or red underwear I might show it again.

Yours

Klaus

 

 

Slipping on extra tyres may have an effect on what you perceive as right because it makes the thick rims appear even thicker.

 

If you're drifting towards counting rivets then your only livery choice is crimson lake (Midland or LMS) for your saturated compound. You'd also need tall Midland boiler fittings.

 

As you may well be aware, all compounds were superheated (for which in modelling terms read got a longer smokebox (gross simplification)) by Jan 1928. So, for example, 1043 here in the condition you are modelling in early LMS days (from the Transports of Delight smugmug site):

 

after superheating and receiving front frame extensions looked like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192881863952

 

And just to complete the story became 41043 with reduced height boiler fittings (flat topped dome and squatter chimney with no capuchon), but retaining the Deeley(?) tender chassis (albeit with a new shorter 'Fowler' tank/body):

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1048929245/h30a6ba1

 

Simon

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by 65179
Added BR photo link

[Klaus ojo]

Simon,

don´t worry, it will get proper wheels: I won´t araldite the 14mm rims onto the present driving wheels.

Crimson lake is a nice color and I do not want to make more changes on the loco. So let´s see if I´d be able to turn a dome and chimney and have hands for the lining...