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Indian Red revisited


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Rabs - the points you make about pigments are valid, and paintshop (or erecting shop) foremen had 'colour reference panels' from which to work, the idea being that the mixing of pigments and the colours applied didn't diverge too much from what was intended. How close the colour matching was in actual day-to-day practice is unknown, and no doubt there were many instances where the need to 'get the job done' would override aesthetic considerations.

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I tried to send an email to Swindon Works to inquire about their 517 class loco and ask if it is available in 4mm scale but my email bounced back. Are they still in business ? The GWR.org site says it is available in both 4mm and 7mm scale but the Swindon Works website mentions only 7mm scale.

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I thought Swindon Works closed years before the advent of email :O

 

I assume you mean Malcolm Mitchell's kits? If so, the 4mm versions are listed by David Geen. I keep meaning to contact him about this kit but still haven't got around to it, so can't say anything about it's availability. Be aware that David's web pages haven't been updated for a long time and I'm told it's best to contact him by phone or at an exhibition (probably not an option in your case).

 

Nick

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I assume you mean Malcolm Mitchell's kits? If so, the 4mm versions are listed by David Geen. I keep meaning to contact him about this kit but still haven't got around to it, so can't say anything about it's availability. Be aware that David's web pages haven't been updated for a long time and I'm told it's best to contact him by phone or at an exhibition (probably not an option in your case).

 

 

Thank you for the information.  I have looked at  David Geen's  web page and the 517 is listed there. The price list is dated 2009 ! There is no phone number though ; just an email address.

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Perhaps a general enquiry in the modelling questions area would get the number. I tried a quick search and found three topics all of which recommended contacting him by phone, but none gave the number. A more extensive search might find it, otherwise, it's back to snail mail...

 

Nick

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Getting back on topic and thinking about Rabs' question, it's worth noting that the GWR bought in many of their paints. For example, the 1907 signal dept painting instructions (see bottom of this page) mention trade names such as "Torbay" and "Ripolin". The Torbay Paint Company had a long relationship with the GWR having supplied the paint for the Royal Albert bridge.

 

Other paints were bought as pigments and mixed as needed. The 1922 stores list quoted by John Lewis in GWW lists various "dry colours", including indian red. Presumably these were also supplied in bulk by paint companies. Again, despite the association of the name 'indian red' with haematite from Bengali mines, it might be relevant that the Torbay company started when iron ore was found on Richard Wolston's land at Furzeham and was used to produce a "rust free paint" (see Torbay link above).

 

Nick

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  • 2 weeks later...

I could make slightly tasteless comments about injuries (men did get trapped in valvegear if engines were inadvertently or carelessly moved) but I suspect it was probably because it was harder wearing than white paint and was brighter than black thus giving better light and visibilty.

 

Coming into this thread a bit late and answering a question that may have been answered. What I have been told was that when when the inside of the frame was cleaned if a crack was there it would show up as a dirty line against the red. Then depending on the size of the crack, it would then depend if the loco was kept in traffic.  

 

OzzyO.

Edited by ozzyo
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  • 2 months later...

 ... but I suspect it was probably because it was harder wearing than white paint and was brighter than black thus giving better light and visibilty.

 

 -- Wasn't there one of the Scottish Co's. that painted the insides of its locos'. frames yellow?  The purpose, I seem to remember , was to give better lighting to those crawling around with their oil-cans and also to shew-up any oil-leaks/splashes, wch. might be indications of future troubles because of loss of lubication? 

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  Coming into this thread a bit late and answering a question that may have been answered. What I have been told was that when when the inside of the frame was cleaned if a crack was there it would show up as a dirty line against the red. Then depending on the size of the crack, it would then depend if the loco was kept in traffic.      OzzyO.

 

 -- In The Royal Artillery it was, and maybe still is? , the custom that all breech rings & breech-blocks, and also muzzle brakes if fitted,  were left unpainted.

 - I queried this with one of the gunnery staff WOs. and was told that paint could obscure or cover-up any incipient cracks;  obviously a cracked breech-ring or block could endanger the lives of the gun detachment.  On a trial firing of the OQF. HAA. 3.7 Mk.5 - this was at the School of HAA. Artillery, Manorbier - the back of the breech-ring blew-off, killing some 5 or so members of the 11 man gun detachment;  the reason was traced-down to the fact that all corners of the breech-ring met perpendicularly, thus setting-up stresses;  as a result all corners of all artillery guns' breech rings were and are radiused to better distribute the stresses. 

  --  :-)

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  • 4 years later...

 

A Flower, built in 1910, long after the 'everything below the footplate is now black' was introduced in late 1906:
 
Tell me what colour you think the wheel inserts are.

 

 

So, the colourist was told to update the GWR 4-4-0 postcard with a new name and number and make sure she gave it black frames -- and that's exactly what she did.

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So, the colourist was told to update the GWR 4-4-0 postcard with a new name and number and make sure she gave it black frames -- and that's exactly what she did.

 

Have to say my first thought on seeing the picture was very similar - it's a postcard so it's whatever colour the colourist chose.

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  • 2 years later...

This shows indian red on the outer faces of inside frames:

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Assorted/Churchward-2900-Saint-Class/2972-2990-Scott-Series/i-7mVptj2/A

 

The current caption of this pic is wrong, btw. The pic is sometime between September 1905 (loco build date) and September 1906 (when it was named).

 

My current thinking is that the application of indian red to the outer faces of inside frames was experimental, and confined to a few express passenger locos.

 

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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

This shows indian red on the outer faces of inside frames:

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Assorted/Churchward-2900-Saint-Class/2972-2990-Scott-Series/i-7mVptj2/A

 

The current caption of this pic is wrong, btw. The pic is sometime between September 1905 (loco build date) and September 1906 (when it was named).

 

My current thinking is that the application of indian red to the outer faces of inside frames was experimental, and confined to a few express passenger locos.

 

 

Interesting too that the springs themselves are painted Indian Red but the brackets and supports attached to them are all in black.

 

What a great photo that is!

 

Craig W

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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

This shows indian red on the outer faces of inside frames:

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Assorted/Churchward-2900-Saint-Class/2972-2990-Scott-Series/i-7mVptj2/A

 

The current caption of this pic is wrong, btw. The pic is sometime between September 1905 (loco build date) and September 1906 (when it was named).

 

My current thinking is that the application of indian red to the outer faces of inside frames was experimental, and confined to a few express passenger locos.

 

 

Of course there the inside frames become the outside frames, for the trailing axle.

 

But I don't understand why you consider the painting of the frames Indian red to not to have been general. when it is entirely consistent with 19th century practice, for example:

 

image.png.f43fcd0a60d79d6293d27f701cf632b1.png

 

 

[F. Moore - Old postcard, Public Domain, Wikimedia Commons.]

 

Or the Midland's practice of painting frames in crimson lake, along with the rest of the engine.

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3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

...

My current thinking is that the application of indian red to the outer faces of inside frames was experimental, and confined to a few express passenger locos.

 

My understanding is that the inside of loco frames were painted indian red or vermilion to show up any cracks in the frames. These cracks would fill up with grease and oil which would contrast very nicely with the red.

The practice assumes that the loco would be kept clean which they would during the Victorian era.

Later practice of making frames from steel, not iron, would render this less important and these painting practices just became part of tradition.

This isn't to say that steel  frames couldn't break, it was just less likely. 

Edited by PenrithBeacon
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4 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

My understanding is that the inside of loco frames were painted indian red or vermilion to show up any cracks in the frames. These cracks would fill up with grease and oil which would contrast very nicely with the red.

The practice assumes that the loco would be kept clean which they would during the Victorian era.

Later practice of making frames from steel, not iron, would render this less important and these painting practices just became part of tradition.

This isn't to say that steel  frames couldn't break, it was just less likely. 

 

If I've understood you correctly, you speak of the inside of inside frames, whereas the question is about the colour of the outside of those frames, i.e. what was publicly visible behind the wheels.

 

Also, it occurs to me that the LNWR is another example of a company where the practice was to paint the outside of the inside frames the same colour as the rest of the locomotive...

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On 13/01/2021 at 22:02, Compound2632 said:

But I don't understand why you consider the painting of the frames Indian red to not to have been general. when it is entirely consistent with 19th century practice, for example:

 

I hope I am not giving that impression, and it certainly is not my intention.

 

What the 189 picture demonstrates in my view is:

 

- a validation of  Stationmaster Mike's pic of No 40 earlier in this thread  (i.e. it wasn't a flight of fancy in the colourists mind, or the colourist applying wrong information)

 

- a repudiation of Lee Marsh's assertion that the outside face of inside-framed locos for 1900-1906 was black

 

Where all this gets to is I think a confirmation that painting practices were changing rapidly at Swindon during the 1903-1905 era, and there is of course the possibility that indian red was still being applied to the outside faces of inside-framed express passenger locos (or at least a few of them) but black was being, and had been, used for goods engines from an unknown date.

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

- a validation of  Stationmaster Mike's pic of No 40 earlier in this thread  (i.e. it wasn't a flight of fancy in the colourists mind, or the colourist applying wrong information)

 

- a repudiation of Lee Marsh's assertion that the outside face of inside-framed locos for 1900-1906 was black

 

Thanks. On general theoretical grounds (i.e. I'm making it up) it seems to me that painting the inside frames Indian red would have been the older of the two styles. Compare Deeley's simplified livery for the Midland, with black replacing red for inside frames (and wheels).

 

I note that in Mike's coloured picture, the splashers are green where the older style would be red. 

 

More comparative studies: absolutely the nearest locomotives to Churchward's Atlantics are Robinson's Atlantics, which in fact came out first. The livery style of the GWR and GCR was, at the turn of the century, very similar. Robinson's Atlantics were turned out with red splashers, valences, and outside frames to the rear axle; the latter curve in to join the inside frames, the colour of which is either red or black - but the evidence here is from models built many years later. 

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