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Hornby Star Class


gwrrob
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I thought I;'d start a seperate thread for the new release of the GW Star as I'm doing some research on a possible rename on 4018 'Knight Of The Grand Cross'.

 

Inspired by Miss Prism's excellent photo find ,I'm looking for a post war shot of 4012 'Knight Of The Thistle' to see if she had elbow fitted like the model Hornby are doing.

 

Steam at Swindon came up with these http://www.steampict....html?find=4012 all without.When or if were the elbows fitted.

 

However with my limited library I have so far found these all without the elbow pipes just before the WW2 :

 

4013 'Knight Of St Patrick' GWS calendar 2012

 

4020 'Knight Commander' Colour photo too.

 

4042 'Prince Albert'

 

4066 'Malvern Abbey'

 

4069 'Westminster Abbey'

 

All these are except 4013 are in The Great Western Railway book by Pat Whitehouse.

 

Can anyone add anymore info ? Obviously I can't rename to any that were eventually Castles for my post war layout !

 

Anywhere on the net that gives Laira/Newton allocations for Stars ?

 

4034 Queen Adelaide has them fitted here. http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/queen_adelaide/print/1270011.html

Edited by gwrrob
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4012 Knight of the Thistle never had either type of outside steam pipe fitted. It did, like other knights have the square box shaped cover over the valves on the inner cylinders.

 

Of the Knights, only Bath (1935), St John (1948), Grand Cross (1931), Templar (1948) and Commander (1949) received elbow (inner) steam pipes at the dates in brackets, and Golden Fleece was converted to a Castle in 1925.

 

Kings George, Charles, Henry, John, Stephen and Harold, and Princesses Louise and Patricia received neither type of pipes.

 

Glastonbury Abbey received inner pipes in 1948, Malmesbury in 1950 and Neath in 1937. No other Abbeys received them.

 

Nick

 

ps the rest did get one or other type of pipes.

Edited by buffalo
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I'll be watching this one. I need three - Princess Alice, Princess Charlotte and Queen Charlotte. But I'm not too fussy about the details (sorry...). If I can find the right donor, great, but I was previously going to have them rebuilt as Castles, so using a Star will be an improvement on that!

 

Tom

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I've been here before with Hornby.They never make it easy to rename or is it just me.The choice of Hawksworth tender for 'Wellington' Castle is my case in point.

 

The other option of course is to buy the Steam Limited edition with no pipes and rename. :O

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I've been here before with Hornby.They never make it easy to rename or is it just me.The choice of Hawksworth tender for 'Wellington' Castle is my case in point.

 

The other option of course is to buy the Steam Limited edition with no pipes and rename. :O

 

More research found this site with some of the class showing elbow steam pipes including some taken on the sea wall . :scratchhead: http://www.colour-rail.com/Category1.aspx

 

Looks like it will have a royal connection being either a Prince, Queen or Princess.

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I have a list I made a while back at home. I will dig it out and post.

 

One observation to note. In the 1930's, many of the Stars carried boilers with smokeboxes, built for engines with outside steam pipes. If these boilers were fitted to an engine with inside pipes still fitted then there was a rivetted patch, on the smokebox side, over the hole where the outside steam pipe should be.

 

Note Lode Star had elbow steam pipes still fitted when it was withdrawn for preservation. These were removed during the restoration. Do not use Lode Star's 'preserved' state as representative of her service condition.

 

1951 condition

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=lode+star&num=10&hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&tbnid=mldosHZpQQPEjM:&imgrefurl=http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/RR_GWR_Express_460.html&docid=wzrSgs0qFrnLKM&imgurl=http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/4003%252520Lode%252520Star_Swindon.jpg&w=640&h=280&ei=siXUUMSdGaas4ASsj4GwDQ&zoom=1&biw=1280&bih=827&iact=rc&dur=360&sig=109961931752001072087&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=276&start=0&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0,i:106&tx=115&ty=51&surl=1

 

As now

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=lode+star&num=10&hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&tbnid=zSevcYTsoXlGwM:&imgrefurl=http://www.tripadvisor.com/ReviewPhotos-g186346-d207903-r81675213-National_Railway_Museum-York_North_Yorkshire_England.html&docid=9QQlNulX3yfnQM&imgurl=http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/aa/56/bb/lode-star.jpg&w=550&h=412&ei=siXUUMSdGaas4ASsj4GwDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=756&vpy=416&dur=110&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=136&ty=93&sig=109961931752001072087&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=176&start=0&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:0,i:136&biw=1280&bih=827&surl=1

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Sheds and steam pipe fitting: Some first and last shed allocations, with dates of type of elbow or Castle outside steam pipe fitting: 4000-4029 and 4000-4072. (Rob, looks like 4012 Knight of the Thistle or 4054 Princess Charlotte for a late Newton/Laira engine.)

Rods: Princesses initially fitted with fluted rods of special steel but later fitted with standard fishbelly.

Tenders: first members of the class with the then standard 3000g, very soon thereafter 3500g non-riveted (normally) or riveted was the typical mid-period look, most of the class starting receiving 4000g after 1938. Two of the class ran with Hawksworth flat-sided 4000g, including Malmesbury Abbey, although this also ran with 4000g in late days. (A couple ran with Great Bear's 8-wheeler, and maybe some ran with 3500 intermediates?)

Steam pipes: originally all inside, outside pipes started to be fitted 1928 onward, either elbow type or Castle type. Some were never fitted with outside pipes, and Nick notes above. See also Mike's notes above re boiler swapping.

Smokebox rivets: initially flush riveted, smokebox riveting started c 1924. A Queen in 1932 has rivets on the back ring but the front ring still flush-riveted, and a rarer form is the converse. The late-surviving Stars ended up with rivets on both front and back smokebox rings. The early external smokebox damper mechanism was removed post WWI and plated over.

Buffers: all Churchward standard taper as far as I can tell. (i.e. no Collett tapered or parallel).

Safety valve: initially all tall, but a few migrated to low (check dated prototype pics).

Inside cylinders front cover: 'square box' on 4001-20, the remainder 'scalloped'.

Bogie brakes: fitted from new, removal started 1923 (and quickly completed).

Cab front portholes plated over starting c 1924.

Splasher brass beading: removed WWI and never replaced.

Front lamp iron: from 1932, the upper lamp iron transferred from the front of the chimney to the smokebox door.

Chimneys: all high 1'11¾" type, although a few from 1939 received the Grange type of shorter 1'9" chimney. None received the Castle type, short or tall, as far as I can tell.


Edit: 4000 removed from list of conventional front cylinder cover descriptions: see Buffalo's later post.

Edited by Miss Prism
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Further research in the Wild Swan book Great Western in South Devon reveals no less than 13 Stars allocated to Laira in 1914.Numbers/names given on request.

 

If Hornby make the square box cover version then my options are very limited on renames.Plan B then.

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If Hornby make the square box cover version then my options are very limited on renames.Plan B then.

 

Unless Hornby are making a big boo boo and only making the one front end as Lode Star, then the BR 'Abbey' version should be fine for the rest of the class.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Great Western Journal nos 33,34 & 35 have a detailed article of Star workings allocations etc.

Edited by Coach bogie
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Back home for Christmas and I have found my lists. It was given to me by a fellow Great Western Study Group member a few years back.The dates are release to traffic after fitting of external pipes.

Only engines not listed are 4000 (non standard), engines that retained original inside pipes and the castle rebuilds none of which had external pipes prior to rebuilding. I have the list of these engines with release to traffic after rebuild. I can post if anyone needs it.

Mike Wiltshire

Elbow Steam Pipes
4002 Evening Star 12/29
4003 Lode Star 3/49
4004 Morning Star 3/46
4007 Swallow Field Park 5/47
4008 Royal Star 7/33
4014 Knight of the Bath 7/35
4015 Knight of St. John 12/48
4018 Knight of the Grand Cross 5/31
4019 Knight Templar 5/48
4020 Knight Commander 3/49
4021 British Monarch 7/48
4022 Belgian Monarch 6/48
4026 Japanese Monarch 10/32
4031 Queen Mary 8/48
4033 Queen Victoria 4/40
4034 Queen Adelaide 6/32
4036 Queen Elizabeth 7/43
4038 Queen Berengaria 8/32
4039 Queen Matilda 12/48
4041 Prince of Wales 10/47
4042 Prince Albert 5/48
4044 Prince George 10/46
4045 Prince John 1/46
4046 Princess Mary 1/49
4048 Princess Victoria 8/32
4050 Princess Alice 6/46
4054 Princess Charlotte 10/45
4056 Princess Margaret 8/49
4058 Princess Augusta 10/44
4060 Princess Eugenie 12/30
4061 Glastonbury Abbey 7/49
4062 Malmesbury Abbey 3/50

Castle steam Pipes
4001 Dog Star – 10/30
4024 Dutch Monarch 2/29
4035 Queen Charlotte 1/31
4040 Queen Boadicea 2/30
4043 Prince Henry 10/31
4047 Princess Louise 10/38
4049 Princess Maud 2/35
4051 Princess Helena 12/44
4052 Princess Beatrice 4/39
4053 Princess Alexandra 10/43
4055 Princess Sophia 5/45
4057 Princess Elizabeth 4/30
4059 Princess Patricia 8/44

 

Edited by Coach bogie
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Having received for Christmas the excellent book Great Western Steam 1934-49, from the Norman Lockett archive, I have found some very nice photos of Stars in action including Dainton.

 

One such gem from 1936 is a 6 coach train pulled by 4035 'Queen Charlotte' which includes one super saloon probably being taken to Plymouth for use on a boat train.She has the Castle type steam pipes unfortunately from a Hornby model renaming possiblity.

 

The super saloon is available as a kit too from Comet models.

 

However all is not lost as further perusal finds 4060 'Princess Eugenie' with elbow type pipes in a similar location this time pulling a 5 coach train including a toplight.

 

Is this my destiny.Where was 4060 allocated post war prior to Stafford Road ?

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Is this my destiny.Where was 4060 allocated post war prior to Stafford Road ?

 4060 allocations

 

1914 - Old oak

1920 - Laira

1923 - Laira

1929 - Worcester

1938 - Swindon Factory -arrived from Landore, next alloc Tyseley

1942 - Tyseley

1947 - Stafford Road (with 4018/20/31/53)

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Thanks.Wheres your source of allocations please as I will probably need other choices.

 

Various publications and shed books. I then make up my own lists based on what my layout  requirements are, not just allocations but engines/stock photographed 

 

To be accurate on my trainset, I need more Stars and Saints than any other, which, by my period were working most of the cross country and Weymouth trains through the Westbury area.

 

There are two shed allocation books for 1921 and 1932 by Wild Swann. I picked up a shed register for 1947 being sold to raise funds at Didcot a few years back. the three part GW Journal article mentioned above covers the Stars full career with allocations, old issues of the Great Western Magazine (available to view at York), pre-war railway magazines etc (available to view at York), and from data held by Great Western Study Group members (one of whom obtained information from the National Archives at Kew).

 

Mike Wiltshire

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This star is going to prove quite tempting; there's nothing to stir the blood quite the sight of a star on a mid to late 1920s express. They were such iconic locos from the early 20th century I might just have to get one. Problem is the one I'd want is Lode Star which is a limited edition and priced accordingly. It maybe best to say 'to hell with it' and get one ordered. It's not like the money isn't going to a good cause though but I do prefer to get a bargain.

 

Another problem would be the lack of appropriate coaching stock for it. I really can't believe that toplights or similar (I'm no expert here) haven't been introduced yet considering that they represent the sort of gap in the market that must be visible from space! I could do with a decent train of Great Western vehicles in any case to represent the Barry to Newcastle on my LNER layout.

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The only commercially available pre-war GWR RTR stock are the Bachmann Colletts, Hornby Colletts, Hornby Centenaries and Hornby Clerestories. The Bachmann Colletts are reasonable but not flush glazed and are showing their age, particularly when compared with Hornby's latest coaching stock such as the Hawksworths. The Hornby Colletts, Centenaries and Clerestories are little more than toys, the first being part of the Railroad collection. Both are very old mouldings with a modern paint job.

The Hornby chocolate and cream Hawksworths will look very nice behind your Star but as has been discussed here in the past were only briefly painted in this colour scheme as they were delivered in the main after nationalisation and as such in crimson and cream. Most of the photos of GWR Stars I have seen are pulling trains composed of Hornby type Colletts and various clerestory coaches.

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Problem is the one I'd want is Lode Star which is a limited edition and priced accordingly. It maybe best to say 'to hell with it' and get one ordered. It's not like the money isn't going to a good cause...

A good cause indeed.

 

According to Pat Hammond:

This was suggested by the people at Steam, the railway museum in Swindon, and will be exclusive to them. I was shown a decorated model and it could possibly be released as early as February

 

By my lights, if we have the Steam museum to thank for commissioning a Star, and therefore causing the tooling to be made, then they deserve my custom, even if it costs a little more. Hopefully we will also benefit by Hornby producing more Stars in early Collett liveries in future. 

Edited by Ozexpatriate
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The Hornby chocolate and cream Hawksworths will look very nice behind your Star

They may well look very nice I agree, but as you go on to say most of the pictures you have seen of the 1920s - early 1930s show a mix of types including clerestories (and definitely no Hawksworths). Ideally for this period, as on other lines, we need that classic mix and don't match look of many dissimilar types. I am not a Great Western modeller but would welcome a few key 1920s/1930s coach types for easy modelling options, as mentioned earlier. Proper Great Western modellers might want to spend time building the  most appropriate coaches but I really don't have time.

Edited by Dick Turpin
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