East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[1E BoY]

5 hours ago, TylerTrainFan2001 said:

Any updates on the bridge removals?

 

Work is progressing. Apart from blowing them up (and I am pretty sure that option was not available to East West Rail!) they have to be removed carefully and safely. Additionally these sections are in close proximity to the West Coast Main Line and can only take place at certain times (usually under a possession). The section at the end of Duncombe Street close to the ones removed over Buckingham Road is much closer to the railway that the ones removed across Buckingham Road and the one to the north of it.

 

Top picture was taken on Monday, second picture yesterday, when the lifting beams were being fitted. That work was on-going today. The area for the crane to stand on looks complete so it is a case of watch this space. When there is something to report or photograph rest assured it will be posted here.

[1E BoY]

This was taken on Buckingham Road around 1530 yesterday (school closing time). Traffic was backed up all the way past the Church Green Road junction and past the 8 Belles public house. All waiting to turn right into Water Eaton Road to go underneath the West Coast Main Line.

 

Yesterday was the first day of the schools going back full time. During the closure of the dual carriageway down Buckingham Road and through the main bridges the schools have been closed due to Covid-19. 

 

It was a lot quicker to walk!

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Trog said:

Long term it might save money to free the path for longer distance use by putting in a fifth track from Denbigh Hall south to Milton Keynes. But you would need a lot of Aylesbury - Milton Keynes traffic to make it worth doing, as opposed to making the service change at Bletchley

It would also be useful for Oxford to MK services, so potentially easier to justify that way.

[TylerTrainFan2001]

I recently saw at newton Longville where Chepstow park is that they are placing new fencing and create a new place could there be a level crossing? 

[mike morley]

What purpose would it serve?

 

[Trog]

22 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It would also be useful for Oxford to MK services, so potentially easier to justify that way.

 

I am sure I have seen drawings that refer to the bay platform at the south end of Milton Keynes Station as the Bedford Bay.

Compared with that running trains from Aylesbury and Oxford is a positively genius idea.

[Zomboid]

Building a couple of new tracks from Bletchley to MK would be more easily justified if they were to be used by all the EWR services - Oxford, Bedford and Aylesbury. Which is an entirely different proposition to running the Bedford 153 in a WCML path. That would be utter lunacy.

[Trog]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Building a couple of new tracks from Bletchley to MK would be more easily justified if they were to be used by all the EWR services - Oxford, Bedford and Aylesbury. Which is an entirely different proposition to running the Bedford 153 in a WCML path. That would be utter lunacy.

 

Not sure a Bedford to Milton Keynes service would ever be a runner, as if it is going to reverse at Bletchley you might as well time it to be a good connection and have people change trains.

 

Also is there going to be enough traffic to justify two lines, (or even one)? Could you merge the two flyover lines into one at Denbigh Hall South, do away with the current Denbigh Hall South Junction which is not really in a good place alignment wise, and replace it with a simple cross over Milton Keynes Single to Up Slow just south of Denbigh Hall North Junction so you could then use the existing Up Slow Dn Slow crossover to access the Dn Slow. With the single line continuing to a platform at Milton Keynes as a dead end line. Only making the new line single would save a lot of money on bridges, and halve the amount of digging needed to widen Denbigh Hall Cutting which is deep and given the retaining wall on the up side probably through poor ground, so would need either a new retaining wall or a low angle of batter and hence more land take and digging. Denbigh Hall South to Milton Keynes Central Station is almost exactly two miles.

[Nearholmer]

The key reasons for wanting to get Bedford, Aylesbury and Oxford trains to MKC, rather than only Bletchley, are the opportunities that would create for onward connections, and proximity to the city centre.

 

With no disrespect to those Bletchleyonians here present, very few people who don't live there travel to Bletchley as a destination in itself (visitors to BP in normal times do, of course), and adding a change (or an extra change to get to onward destinations by inter city train is always deeply off-putting to customers.

 

But, the pathing to/from MKC is indeed challenging, and the idea of additional track(s) feels like no-go to me because of the civil engineering costs that would be involved - its hard to imagine that the payback, even counting-in social benefit, would be there.

 

So, I imagine that only the prime service, to/from Oxford, might get a look in, unless all the services are 2-car, and they can be joined to create 4-car rakes for a quick dash to MKC and back*. But, the modern railway doesn't seem very good at the sort of thing that the southern used to do all the time, and still does a bit.

 

*Half hourly service MKC<>Oxford. First one each hour splits/joins at Bletchley to give a Bedford portion; second one each hour splits/joins at Winslow to give an Aylesbury portion. Dream on!

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Zomboid]

I think the idea would be that MK to Oxford would need more than 2 carriages. Of course if the platforms at MKC, Bletchley and Winslow could accommodate 6 or 8 cars then Oxford could have 4 car trains to join with the Aylesbury and Bedford trains.

 

Or the Aylesbury and Bedford trains could run together to/from Bletchley. You could even put all three together at Bletchley for the run to MKC as an 8-12 car formation.

 

But you can tell we're from the Southern, thinking that such lunacy is even worth the effort of typing out...

[Nearholmer]

Another confounding factor is that the terminating platform at MKC is quite short, I think only four cars, which is why I suggested short but frequent trains. Terminating on a through road is already used for the Euston stoppers, and even though nearly everything is bi-directional and there are bypass options, more would probably cause real indigestion.

 

Anything coming off the routes we are discussing would be crossing the up slow on a flat junction, as well as consuming time on the down slow. 
 

If you have a look at the detail on RTT, you will see that there are genuine capacity issues on the slow lines in this area at several times of day. I think evening peak is the most challenging because there is a parade of southbound freights Around 1800, as well as everything else. I have a feeling that Covid may have reduced imports and freightliner traffic, but in the past every one of the conditional freight paths has been used on some days.
 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Nearholmer

[lmsforever]

The way the DFT are going on I would imagine they are trying to descope this project and only running short trains to MK will fit with their stance.Constantly cuts have been made since the inception of the new plans it seems as though they regret ever setting it up.

[Zomboid]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Another confounding factor is that the terminating platform at MKC is quite short, I think only four cars, which is why I suggested short but frequent trains. Terminating on a through road is already used for the Euston stoppers, and even though nearly everything is bi-directional and there are bypass options, more would probably cause real indigestion.

 

Anything coming off the routes we are discussing would be crossing the up slow on a flat junction, as well as consuming time on the down slow. 

The up bay is 124m according to the sectional appendix (104m if the pan is on the leading vehicle).

I think this silly fantasy would need at least an "East West Reversible" to the east of the WCML so that the slow lines wouldn't normally need to be crossed by EWR services. Southbound EWR trains could use the up slow if necessary/ appropriate. A new platform or two for the EWR services would make the whole thing properly workable.

[Trog]

How about stopping the expresses at Bletchley like they used to, A rear access to the station would provide convenient access to the bus station, and the new East - West platforms. The railway could probably also get some sort of urban improvement grant to pay for the bulldozing of Bletchley high street, which would then create space for parking.

 

The problem of shuttling to and from Milton Keynes Central Station then goes away.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, well, since we are playing fantasy urban/railway regeneration, I suppose shifting the effective centre of MK to Bletchley is an allowable move. No more unlikely than what Zomboid and I want to do.

[corneliuslundie]

After all there is no reason for anyone to visit Bletchley now Expo EM has moved away.

Hat, coat, running shoes (if only)

Jonathan

[Davexoc]

I drove into Winslow from Little Horwood this morning, and I take it that the bridge over that road is soon to be lifted out. I cannot think of any other reason for adding several passing places on a road that is already a two lane road, other than something very wide is soon to be moved along it, like a very big crane and a bridge deck.

 

There has also been a lot of vegetation clearance recently around Mursley/Sladen Farm area.

[rodent279]

9 hours ago, Trog said:

How about stopping the expresses at Bletchley like they used to, A rear access to the station would provide convenient access to the bus station, and the new East - West platforms. The railway could probably also get some sort of urban improvement grant to pay for the bulldozing of Bletchley high street, which would then create space for parking.

 

The problem of shuttling to and from Milton Keynes Central Station then goes away.

Why not stop them at both, since Pendos etc have such good acceleration?

Would stopping the majority of MK stops for West Coast long distance trains at BY instead of MK really inconvenience that many people, as long as connections are still available? If your destination is MK, chances are, unless your destination is right outside the station, you will take either a bus or cab anyway, so for longer distance travellers, I can't see much difference in stopping at BY instead of MK.

Edited September 12, 2020 by rodent279

[Nearholmer]

How about the fact that NR spent zillions optimising MKC to allow overtaking, whereas any stop at Bletchley is a clot in the vein?

 

The other point about MKC is that it is in the middle, giving roughly even travel times to local destinations across the city. Bletchley isn’t.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Zomboid]

The "mistake" was made decades ago, when MK wasn't just a huge expansion around the existing town centre of Bletchley. MK is at least as much of a destination/ source, particularly for local traffic as it is an interchange, so the major benefits of EWR will more readily be realised if the trains go there.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have been trying to work out if there would really be such big timetabling problems for four E-W trains to be accommodated between Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central.

It looks as though it should be possible albeit with changed stopping patterns for the train service on the slow lines: perhaps more trains terminating at Tring and extra stops for Northampton trains.

[Nearholmer]

Did you factor the freight in?

[Trog]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

How about the fact that NR spent zillions optimising MKC to allow overtaking, whereas any stop at Bletchley is a clot in the vein?

 

 

Is the overtaking facility much used though? May just be a function of when I have been there but the old DF platform seems not to get a lot of use. Could perhaps just some expresses that 'connect' with East - West services stop at Bletchley instead. As once HS2 is up and running we are supposed to be getting more but slightly slower trains with more stops anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The other point about MKC is that it is in the middle, giving roughly even travel times to local destinations across the city. Bletchley isn’t.

 

Surely to get anywhere in Milton Keynes you end up taking a roundabout route anyway.

[Bernard Lamb]

58 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I have been trying to work out if there would really be such big timetabling problems for four E-W trains to be accommodated between Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central.

It looks as though it should be possible albeit with changed stopping patterns for the train service on the slow lines: perhaps more trains terminating at Tring and extra stops for Northampton trains.

I thought that HS2 is being built because of a capacity problem on the WCML. The amount of time taken not just in running between the two stations but in getting trains clear of the through lines would be considerable. As for more trains to Tring. Where do they go when they get there? Can it be justified running them back to Euston from there? The idea of a new Crossrail line terminating at Tring was thrown out long ago on grounds of VFM. There is such a lack of capacity south of MK that the slightest problem escalates for several following services. A good example, a time period in which I am a regular traveller,  is the first couple of cheap London bound trains in the morning. OTTOMH from Hemel 09.29 full price. 09.36 first off peak 8 car. 0943 Southern via Clapham Junction. 09.53 4 car and usually packed on arrival.  With different stopping patterns those in the know watch the indicators and the announcements and make a last minute decision as to which train to use. There are times when the first arrival is not the best option.

Bernard

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Did you factor the freight in?

Yes, of course.