East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[jamie92208]

8 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Rather a sweeping statement. No great difficulty in creating "pointwork" for a monorail: a traverser with one straight route and one curved route.

Somewhere on Youtube there is a video of a complex monorail junction in the far east with a very intensive train servicecon all routes. It's fascinating to watch.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

13 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Somewhere on Youtube there is a video of a complex monorail junction in the far east with a very intensive train servicecon all routes. It's fascinating to watch.

 

Jamie

 

 

[melmerby]

There's another one in japan where a hanging monorail (a la Wuppertal Schwebebahn) also has flexible junctions.

 

 

[chriswrightmk]

The Varsity Line was losing £100k pa at closure. MK work began the next day! The NUR suggested even basic economies were  not made - de-staffing stations, improved timetabling to reduce DMUs needed, better timings,, station closures, crossing and signalling modernisation,  50 years subsidy @ £100k (+inflation) would have been millions less than rebuild cost and we would have had the use of it. It would have seen Regional Rlys Express service probably to Norfolk as planned in 1850. It has taken since 1987 to get this far with every obstacle placed in the way by Dft and SRA (Mr Bowker) and little interest by MKDC who were interested in bridleways and cycle ways -very useful for locals. Even now Aylesbury link is at risk and electrification dropped. Privatisation was meant to see the line open -what a farce! BR wanted to re-open but DFT halted it !

 

[Edwin_m]

7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

But, at the level of sustainable transport, nobody is recommending it. It’s very much ‘yesterday’s news’ as a design in terms of sustainable transport.

 

Probably no worse in that respect than any other city in the UK, but still poor on an absolute scale and certainly way-short of the utopian’s dream in respect of sustainable transport.

 

In the vanishingly unlikely circumstance that anyone gets the opportunity to ‘Top down’ design a new city on a green-field site In the UK again, it would be different because we are in different times.

 

As a BTW, MK is very good in some respects for the severely mobility impaired, because the walking/cycling paths are great for battery mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs too - loads of people use them for that.

 

The monorail ‘Plan’ was never serious, it amounted to a few conceptual sketches - at best it was a faintly deluded pious hope (of which there were a lot around in 1967), at worst a cynical sop.

Absolutely.  MK was of its time in transport planning terms, it wouldn't have been build as it was if we were starting now.  I'm merely trying to make the point that if policies had been more foresighted in that era then it might have been centered on Bletchley not on a green field site.  

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

That’s not the point - the key is space was reserved for future public transport routes rather than squeezing the maximum amount of development in.
 

That space is therefore available for use by trans, dedicated bus roads or indeed monorails, the later being perfectly able to have junctions through having bits of the structure that pivot to and fro - much like the switch rail does on a set of conventional railway points.

But no such public transport has ever appeared.  If you make somewhere easy to drive around then most people will drive, and there won't be the demand to sustain good public transport except at huge subsidy, which we don't do in the UK.  The lower urban density necessary to accommodate all those roads and car parks, particularly in the centre, also makes the place less walkable so pushes people back to driving.  

6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Rather a sweeping statement. No great difficulty in creating "pointwork" for a monorail: a traverser with one straight route and one curved route.

You have to move several tons of steel or concrete several yards to switch from one to the other, compared with moving a couple of metal beams a few inches.  Combined with the infrastructure being far more obtrusive than surface-level light rail, especially if comparable facilities are provided for evacuating a stranded vehicle, monorails are really only a practical transport solution in very limited circumstances.  The mention of them in conjunction with Milton Keynes in the 1960s helps to highlight what the attitude was at the time - anything except rail or trams...

Edited September 13, 2020 by Edwin_m

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

The mention of them in conjunction with Milton Keynes in the 1960s helps to highlight what the attitude was at the time - anything except rail or trams...

 

I agree with you that a modern tramway would be far more appropriate for MK than a monorail. And, as you say, back in the 60's trams were definitely not sexy.

MKs grid network would be even more suitable for a peoplemover system of small pods , either on rails or controlled by something like a large scale Faller road system.

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, chriswrightmk said:

The Varsity Line was losing £100k pa at closure. MK work began the next day! The NUR suggested even basic economies were  not made - de-staffing stations, improved timetabling to reduce DMUs needed, better timings,, station closures, crossing and signalling modernisation,  50 years subsidy @ £100k (+inflation) would have been millions less than rebuild cost and we would have had the use of it. It would have seen Regional Rlys Express service probably to Norfolk as planned in 1850. It has taken since 1987 to get this far with every obstacle placed in the way by Dft and SRA (Mr Bowker) and little interest by MKDC who were interested in bridleways and cycle ways -very useful for locals. Even now Aylesbury link is at risk and electrification dropped. Privatisation was meant to see the line open -what a farce! BR wanted to re-open but DFT halted it !

 

 

Cambridge University wanted the track-bed for their radio telescopes, as it was a dead-straight line at the point in question - that didn't help the case against closure at the Cambridge end!

 

John Isherwood.

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

MKs grid network would be even more suitable for a peoplemover system of small pods , either on rails or controlled by something like a large scale Faller road system.

A Personal Rapid Transit system, which is what you describe, has historically been even less successful than a monorail and is one of the classic examples of a "solution in need of a problem".  It has been proven technically since the 1970s, but there are only a handful of working PRT systems worldwide and none that really delivers the dream of automated transport from everywhere to everywhere else.  To do that they would need mostly grade-separated, and hugely expensive and unsightly, infrastructure on every street.  Autonomous vehicles that can share space with pedestrians or other road vehicles may finally kill that idea, although as mentioned above they have some problems of their own.  

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

A Personal Rapid Transit system, which is what you describe, has historically been even less successful than a monorail and is one of the classic examples of a "solution in need of a problem".  It has been proven technically since the 1970s, but there are only a handful of working PRT systems worldwide and none that really delivers the dream of automated transport from everywhere to everywhere else.  To do that they would need mostly grade-separated, and hugely expensive and unsightly, infrastructure on every street.  Autonomous vehicles that can share space with pedestrians or other road vehicles may finally kill that idea, although as mentioned above they have some problems of their own.  

 

If one were indeed to put it on every street, I agree that it would not be viable. But in the context of MK's grid layout, I see no reason why it should not work.

[Nearholmer]

This sort of PRT is exactly what I was talking about earlier in terms of autonomous electric taxis. The infrastructure is already there: roads. Guidance will come from GPS etc, not rails/tracks/embedded-wires-like-faller.

 

We already have lots of tiny little autonomous delivery robot-trucks wombling about the place, taking people "small shopping" from Tesco and the Coop. They use the cycle/walking paths, rather than the highways, although they do cross residential roads (after much agonising and checking - they really know their green cross code).

 

Autonomous "pods" are on trial on limited parts of the cycle/walking paths, but that is really only about proving, because they have to be very small and very slow (think GT version of fully enclosed mobility scooter) for that environment. Bigger versions for road use are a few years away, but only a few.

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

We already have lots of tiny little autonomous delivery robot-trucks wombling about the place, taking people "small shopping" from Tesco and the Coop.

 

Really?

 

Glad I live in Cornwall then - the Piskies have the advantage of being invisible!

 

John Isherwood.

[Nearholmer]

Really indeed.

 

Here’s a snap of one going about it’s business. The top flips up to reveal a ‘cargo hold’ big enough to take about three carrier-bags worth of shopping.

 

The strangest thing is how people react to them, as if they are small animals, rather than machines, because that’s how they behave - small kids pat them and talk to them!

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Really indeed.

 

Here’s a snap of one going about it’s business. The top flips up to reveal a ‘cargo hold’ big enough to take about three carrier-bags worth of shopping.

 

The strangest thing is how people react to them, as if they are small animals, rather than machines, because that’s how they behave - small kids pat them and talk to them!

 

Gordon Bennett!! If one of those came down here it'd quite put the locals of their pasties!

 

For those that know about such things - can you visualise one of these in Malcolm Barnecutt's red and white gingham livery?

 

 

It's only a matter of time - I suspect.

 

John Isherwood.

[Nearholmer]

This really is badly OT, so sorry for the distraction, but here is a film too https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=starship+delivery+milton+keynes&&view=detail&mid=8238586975E01F3DF1808238586975E01F3DF180&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dstarship%2Bdelivery%2Bmilton%2Bkeynes%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

If one were indeed to put it on every street, I agree that it would not be viable. But in the context of MK's grid layout, I see no reason why it should not work.

Any sort of demand-responsive transport only works if it isn't too successful.  Otherwise the numbers build up to the extent that a more traditional fixed-route public transport is more efficient.  So essentially in an urban area it's a fallback for people without cars, not the primary transport systems, and the bulk of the transport still takes place by car.  

[Davexoc]

32 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Really indeed.

 

Here’s a snap of one going about it’s business. The top flips up to reveal a ‘cargo hold’ big enough to take about three carrier-bags worth of shopping.

 

The strangest thing is how people react to them, as if they are small animals, rather than machines, because that’s how they behave - small kids pat them and talk to them!

 

Yup, had one deliver sweets for the grandchildren today. Nobody had to drive to our Coop, too much beer had been drunk anyway.

They loved it when it pulled up outside and greeted them with "Hello, I have a delivery for you".

And when they get going they don't hang about....

 

Anyway, back to EWR. The way I see it, Oxford to Bedford will be completed as it is a handy feed in point for the HS2 infrastucture site at Claydon/Calvert, Materials can come in from MML,WCML, CML and GW Padd-Brum.

Any more descoping might be Bedford to Cambridge related. Just my thoughts...

 

[corneliuslundie]

OT but what has John Isherwood done that it is not possible to react to his posts?

J

[Bernard Lamb]

23 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

OT but what has John Isherwood done that it is not possible to react to his posts?

J

John is on Moderated Status. see the note under his name.

 

Back to the delivery carts. I first saw these about four years ago running around on  a trial near the Dome, other more modern names are now in use. Quite impressive.

Bernard

 

[31A]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

 

 

Back to the delivery carts. I first saw these about four years ago running around on  a trial near the Dome, other more modern names are now in use. Quite impressive.

Bernard

 

 

Do they get stolen?

[lmsforever]

Quite regularily on South Today BBC1   put out news about fantastic computer guided vehicles that will get rid of all the cars and buses in MK. Never happens though cant see many people up there giving up their cars for a pod next thing they will work from home !!

[Nearholmer]

Delivery robots, do they get stolen?

 

So far as I can work out, no.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would want to steal one, except possibly to strip it down for parts anyway.

 

More interestingly, they don't seem to get vandalised either.

 

The worst I've seen is kids "teasing" them, by jumping about in front of them to get them confused, and once I saw one "up on bricks", where kids had clearly put it so that its wheels couldn't touch the ground.

 

Why? Hard to be sure. We don't (touch wood) have major vandalism issues in MK anyway, there is a bit, but its not endemic, even the amount of "tagging" is pretty tiny considering how much scope there is. But, I think it might also have to do with the fact that the robots are treated like animals, and maybe because kids perceive (rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure) that (a) they can see you, and (b) everything they see is recorded (which I doubt). It is true that their human masters can switch-in and see through their cameras, and that they are continuously reporting their positions to within <1 metre (if you've got the app, you can track your shopping as it makes its way to you).

 

The point made by the guy in the last few seconds of this film is,  guess, whats on people's minds https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=delivery+robots+milton+keynes&&view=detail&mid=ABE28F947B4B7542CDC6ABE28F947B4B7542CDC6&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Ddelivery%2Brobots%2Bmilton%2Bkeynes%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

 

There is, of course, a potential spookiness about the bots, which I'm sure is why the designers have made them look unthreatening.

 

Its as much a social experiment, about how people interact with robots, as it is a tech proving-ground.

 

Should we move this to a separate thread, 'cos it ceased to be EWR a while back?

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, lmsforever said:

Quite regularily on South Today BBC1   put out news about fantastic computer guided vehicles that will get rid of all the cars and buses in MK. Never happens though cant see many people up there giving up their cars for a pod next thing they will work from home !!

 

I would not suggest that MK residents would all give up their cars. But very good local public transport might enable many two-car households to have just one car. And use that far less.

[TheQ]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

Why? Hard to be sure. We don't (touch wood) have major vandalism issues in MK anyway, there is a bit, but its not endemic, even the amount of "tagging" is pretty tiny considering how much scope there is. But, I think it might also have to do with the fact that the robots are treated like animals, and maybe because kids perceive (rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure) that (a) they can see you, and (b) everything they see is recorded (which I doubt). It is true that their human masters can switch-in and see through their cameras, and that they are continuously reporting their positions to within <1 metre (if you've got the app, you can track your shopping as it makes its way to you).

Unless you live down on the Lakes estate, that'll be where your car disappears to anyway..

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by TheQ

[ess1uk]

Not a million miles away

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54146725

 

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Should we move this to a separate thread, 'cos it ceased to be EWR a while back?

As I'm partly guilty of leading this one astray, I've created this one for us: