PaulT Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I already paid ******* £30 to move him forward. That is the problem. How much more money would you like him to devour with nothing to show for it? No-one knows 'cos no-ones asked! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 If he want's to go down that route, maybe a request on the front page of his website for investors (not customers!) would be appropriate. Fair comment, but we all know his skillset is poorly business oriented so he probably never thought of it. If a few show interest in my suggestion he might be open to doing what you propose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted April 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 21, 2015 PaulT - Since you know Paul Dunn why not suggest he comes back to this thread, which he started, to discuss the problems he is having? I appreciate that there may well be some initial focus on refunds but perhaps once that is over with people might be willing to engage in a constructive discussion with him to the benefit of Paul and the many potential purchasers of his kits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 It would be a great pity if some of these kits were lost to the hobby and its a very good idea fora type of crowd funding to assist a struggling company and I for one would not mind stumping up the said amount to help out in return for perhaps a credit against future purchases. Pity doesn't run businesses, especially ones whose products are well into the long tail and which hasn't come up with anything new for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Carry on dreaming... It would be much more realistic to start from scratch, make new drawings, moulds, packaging, etc. Unfortunately the price for scrap metal is currently fairly low, and that is all that the machinery and most of the moulds are fit for. Any investment would therefore be for the brand names, which are now pretty much worthless. Also, it would be pretty hopeless trying to satisfy the needs of a multitude of 'investors' and has anyone any idea of the sort of funds required? If you want a particular model, then safer to commission from a reputable source. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 A "brand" has a value. It might be worth next to nothing (as in this case) or have a reasonable sale value, as in the case of the Martin Finney range. The real value depends on what someone is willing to pay for it. A new owner can maintain, improve or destroy the the brand value, depending on how they manage the business. Although to some extent true with major brands, (big business), this is not the case with "hobby" busness. The main problem with a hobby business is that the brand value is very much tied to the individual owner. That "goodwill" vannishes as quickly as the owner unless there is some coninuity built in. Many of these businesses are valued on the knowledge of the original owner and the assets. In the majority of these cases the knowledge is difficult to transfer and and often the assets are worn out. Only the stock has value and even that cann be dubious unless it is current. I have handles a number of business transfers from pubs and shops through to some hobby businesses. The rule of thumb is when buying start with zero value goodwill and when selling to bump it up as high as you can find a mug willingg to pay for it. From a tax perspective goodwill is good only for the seller and is worthless to the buyer. Most capital assets have already been depreciated and old stock is fire sale. The trouble with most buyers - as with everything, they get emotional. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I wonder if some of those here who have spent the last year or so criticising Paul would be willing to put up say £50 to help him move forward? Offering shares in a company? Any prospective investor has to have belief in the business plan proposed by the owner and the product's return on the investment. The way this appears to be run, I doubt that there is such a thing as a business plan. (let alone taking basic business advice), and the product rti? well comments on here about having to rework the kits doesn't inspire. Or were you thinking more along the lines of charity? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted April 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 21, 2015 The problem with the injection moulding machine/s, doesn't explain the lack of castings for the Blacksmiths range, he has had etchings done, but keeps saying the castings are on their way, for the best part of the last 4 years. I believe there are also some issues surrounding the lost wax brass castings for the Slaters 4mm coaching range. It would appear that he has dug himself a hole so deep that he is now incapable of climbing out of it. That is assuming he knows which way is up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Well, this thread is now 22 pages long and we have gone full circle at least twice with no outcome. There are those that just want to continually kick and complain and those with suggestions that have been around before. Unless, members make a decision way way or another this thread is going to be another 22 pages of nothing. He is a business (like it or not) and obviously needs support. Whether he accepts the support is also another thing but I think it should be offered. There have been very practical suggestions made, but it appears that there is no concensus one way or the other. At least if the suggestions of support are taken up, there is hope! If he doesn't take them up, we may as well get this thread locked because it will be of no use going around in circles again! Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 On another thread here, this is also an option for models. http://www.diagram3d.com/index.php?route=common/home Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew F Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Suggestions here mean nothing and help or charity mean nothing to a shadow man. A man who will not answer a telephone or reply to an e-mail but still conducts business...........a man who still trades........in the dark recesses of the twilight zone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 When I have rung he has always answered the phone! Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaran Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 With regard to white metal castings perhaps one of the wargaming figure manufactures could help. I know of one range of figures which are now cast in Canada where several different types of moulds were used but by looking aroung the developer of the range was able to get the figures cast. Don't know about the plastic moulding but several figure manufacturers also cast in hard plastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 With regard to white metal castings perhaps one of the wargaming figure manufactures could help. I know of one range of figures which are now cast in Canada where several different types of moulds were used but by looking aroung the developer of the range was able to get the figures cast. Don't know about the plastic moulding but several figure manufacturers also cast in hard plastic. The cost of w/m casting equipment is't great and a number of small suppliers such as London Road Models and David Geen do their own. There are several companies that cast w/m and could do it for him, provided the moulds were available and in good condition. If he is already reliant on an outside contractor for his castings, then you have to query why he isn't getting them done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Perhaps he's lost interest to such an extent that he just wants to rid himself of his stock and then close the business down. The lack of stock on his stand at S4N on the Sunday supports this view. Earlier in the thread people have been mentioning the cost of injection moulding tools. Clearly they were available at a competitive price once otherwise the Ian Kirk range wouldn't have been made at all. Excluding inflation, has the price of making these tools gone up so much as to make them prohibitively expensive? I would have thought that modern CAD/CAM techniques would have reduced the cost. I would also have thought that plastic injection moulding is a far more suitable technique for producing coaches and wagons than the modern photo-etch method at least for the body and there would be a ready market for such kits. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Back in the real world, more often than not the purchaser of an old range of etched kits finds that all the white metal moulds need remaking and the patterns are either unidentified or missing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 Earlier in the thread people have been mentioning the cost of injection moulding tools. Clearly they were available at a competitive price once otherwise the Ian Kirk range wouldn't have been made at all. The cost of the mould/tool is not in the cost of the material but in the cost of the machining. If you can do it yourself it only costs time - and you can rework much more easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel newling Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I have been really disappointed by the savagery with which Paul Dunn has been attacked in this thread. Paul is a hobbyist trader working alone from home where he supports his elderly mother. He took on the Coopercraft range in order to keep them available and then found that the tools were mostly life expired. He has done the best he can with them. He next tried to taken on the Slater's 00 range when he heard that they wanted to give up the range. This transfer never went smoothly, with Paul even now being unable to make up complete kits due to missing tools. The affair is now in the hands of the legal profession. He then tried to salvage the Blacksmith range. Here he has found a complete jumble, with some of the artwork from early kits being irreversibly modified to produce components for later releases and other tools just disappeared. If you want to know how I know all this, its simple. When he attends shows, I go up and talk to the man. If you want to know why " the owner was hidden away at the back of the display and seemed to be engrossed in his laptop" at Scalefour North, he was actually using the time productively, recreating some of the missing Blacksmith artwork so that at least some of the range can be brought back to the market. No, he is not much of a businessman, but he is a model railway enthusiast doing his best. Give him a break. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I have been really disappointed by the savagery with which Paul Dunn has been attacked in this thread. Paul is a hobbyist trader working alone from home where he supports his elderly mother. He took on the Coopercraft range in order to keep them available and then found that the tools were mostly life expired. He has done the best he can with them. He next tried to taken on the Slater's 00 range when he heard that they wanted to give up the range. This transfer never went smoothly, with Paul even now being unable to make up complete kits due to missing tools. The affair is now in the hands of the legal profession. He then tried to salvage the Blacksmith range. Here he has found a complete jumble, with some of the artwork from early kits being irreversibly modified to produce components for later releases and other tools just disappeared. If you want to know how I know all this, its simple. When he attends shows, I go up and talk to the man. If you want to know why " the owner was hidden away at the back of the display and seemed to be engrossed in his laptop" at Scalefour North, he was actually using the time productively, recreating some of the missing Blacksmith artwork so that at least some of the range can be brought back to the market. No, he is not much of a businessman, but he is a model railway enthusiast doing his best. Give him a break. Nigel, I don't doubt a word you say - nor have I any vested interest in the products that this person offers. What you relate is the tale of someone who has made the same mistake three times. Once may be understandable, twice careless, but three times - foolhardy !! Who would buy a range of products, apparently sight unseen? How could the missing components and "jumble", not to mention the apparent basic lack of understanding of what he was buying, have arisen? Basically, we have someone who hasn't got the most basic common sense when it comes to handing over his money. Playing the sympathy card simply won't wash - I'm afraid this person is the author of his own downfall - but the real losers are those modellers who would buy these kits if they are actually available. John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted April 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 23, 2015 I have been really disappointed by the savagery with which Paul Dunn has been attacked in this thread. Paul is a hobbyist trader working alone from home where he supports his elderly mother. He took on the Coopercraft range in order to keep them available and then found that the tools were mostly life expired. He has done the best he can with them. He next tried to taken on the Slater's 00 range when he heard that they wanted to give up the range. This transfer never went smoothly, with Paul even now being unable to make up complete kits due to missing tools. The affair is now in the hands of the legal profession. He then tried to salvage the Blacksmith range. Here he has found a complete jumble, with some of the artwork from early kits being irreversibly modified to produce components for later releases and other tools just disappeared. If you want to know how I know all this, its simple. When he attends shows, I go up and talk to the man. If you want to know why " the owner was hidden away at the back of the display and seemed to be engrossed in his laptop" at Scalefour North, he was actually using the time productively, recreating some of the missing Blacksmith artwork so that at least some of the range can be brought back to the market. No, he is not much of a businessman, but he is a model railway enthusiast doing his best. Give him a break. As you are friendly with the owner you may know the answer to these questions. 1, If the Moulds/tools are in a mess or non existant why does he need a new machine to make them ? 2, If he is unable to fulfill orders why does he continue to take payment for something that he cannot supply ? He may be a modeller but he is a modeller that runs a business to make money from the hobby (no problem with that) but if (as you say) he is not much of a businessman then why on earth does he not seek some help. I have no sympathy for someone who takes money under a false pretence. Maybe his best bet is to cut his losses and sell on the range to someone who can do something with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I have been really disappointed by the savagery with which Paul Dunn has been attacked in this thread. Paul is a hobbyist trader working alone from home where he supports his elderly mother. He took on the Coopercraft range in order to keep them available and then found that the tools were mostly life expired. He has done the best he can with them. He next tried to taken on the Slater's 00 range when he heard that they wanted to give up the range. This transfer never went smoothly, with Paul even now being unable to make up complete kits due to missing tools. The affair is now in the hands of the legal profession. He then tried to salvage the Blacksmith range. Here he has found a complete jumble, with some of the artwork from early kits being irreversibly modified to produce components for later releases and other tools just disappeared. If you want to know how I know all this, its simple. When he attends shows, I go up and talk to the man. If you want to know why " the owner was hidden away at the back of the display and seemed to be engrossed in his laptop" at Scalefour North, he was actually using the time productively, recreating some of the missing Blacksmith artwork so that at least some of the range can be brought back to the market. No, he is not much of a businessman, but he is a model railway enthusiast doing his best. Give him a break. If this is actually true, why is he not explaining this to all on his website? Or does it require each and everyone of us to ask him the same questions at shows in order to get exactly the same information as you? At the end of the day, people want his products. But those products aren't available, and he isn't explaining why. Had he stated on a web page the extent of his troubles as explained personally to you, then customers might have shown a little understanding. As matters stand, people have tried to order stuff, submitted payment......and have diddly-squat to show for it. Retreating into a non-communicative shell helps nobody. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 As much as Id love to jump on the complain train, and I have before, maybe we should look at this a different way. Hes f-ked himself over three times with the different ranges which held promise, but ended up barely salvageable. What he needs to do to fix this is, yes, inform us on his work. If he wants any sympathy from the community, he NEEDS to open up and tell us he is doing something other than "trying to repair my machine". If he released a statement saying he is working on new artwork to replace those lost or altered beyond use, that would be helpful. If he made it clear whether its his machine, tools or both which need fixing, maybe the community would give a bit of sympathy and help him. Hell, Id donate a little towards rebuilding ranges such as Slaters and Coopercraft, but only if he took an active role in both his buisness and community. Im sure many others would too if they knew where the money was actually going, rather than the seemingly black hole of "website purchases" which every potential customer falls into. Hiding from the community doesnt make him look trustworthy, and unfortunately, it may be too late at this point. He has given the same excuse for years now, dropped off the internet, barely is responsive directly, and hasnt had anything to show of his absence for years. Even a simple sentence "Im trying and I have this and this to show of it." would open up so many possibilities for the future of his business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Paul is a hobbyist trader working alone from home where he supports his elderly mother. He took on the Coopercraft range in order to keep them available and then found that the tools were mostly life expired. He has done the best he can with them. He next tried to taken on the Slater's 00 range when he heard that they wanted to give up the range. This transfer never went smoothly, with Paul even now being unable to make up complete kits due to missing tools. The affair is now in the hands of the legal profession. He then tried to salvage the Blacksmith range. Here he has found a complete jumble, with some of the artwork from early kits being irreversibly modified to produce components for later releases and other tools just disappeared. If you want to know how I know all this, its simple. When he attends shows, I go up and talk to the man. If you want to know why " the owner was hidden away at the back of the display and seemed to be engrossed in his laptop" at Scalefour North, he was actually using the time productively, recreating some of the missing Blacksmith artwork so that at least some of the range can be brought back to the market. No, he is not much of a businessman, but he is a model railway enthusiast doing his best. Give him a break. Sorry, but that just exemplifies the problem. Coopercraft may well have een a mistake and a break could well have been justified. But to continue to make further mistakes is unforgivable. If left alone these other businesses may well have been rescued by a more competent businessman. I am afraid I have no sympathy for someone who runs a business ith no business acumen - As an accountant and tax advisor I delt with too many of them. Knowing when to stop digging a hole is as important as knowing the difference between debits and credits. All three businesses had potential to be rescued and if that was really not possible then they should have been confined to history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Hi, I have always tried in replying to this thread to be as fair and uncritical as I can be but since my name is still involved I sometimes feel the need to contribute. True some postings on here have been harsh but others have been constructive and it could be that the adverse comments are deserved. Having started this thread the gentleman concerned should surely have continued to monitor it, take note and try to deal with the points raised. Injection mould tools are expensive to produce in so far as the time taken by the toolmaker has to be paid for. Modern methods may bring the costs down but I doubt it. If I had had to pay a firm of toolmakers to produce the Ian Kirk moulds they would never had been produced at all. The moulds for the 4mm coach range were machined by me and produced initially on a machine that I had built to my own design. The detail is machined in free cutting hard brass and for model railway quantities should last forever. (if you are making many millions of something you would use hardened steel) I know for a fact that the side and end moulds were still in good working order after Colin Ashby ran off the last batch of mouldings (on the machine I designed) . The moulds then went down to Somerset. My machines have all been vertical, when Tony Brown owned Coopercraft the machine he had was horizontal - two completely different gating systems. This is why Tony always left the long moulds at Colins and had Colin produce mouldings for him. It is theoretically possible to convert the moulds (assuming a competent Engineer) but even after 45 years in the business I would be reluctant to undertake this. (Far simpler to get the right machine). As for the rest : you can only sell what you actually have. To take orders for something you do not have is wrong. If someone has paid and you can't supply -refund. If stuff is out of stock and unlikely to be for more than say 28 days then edit it out of your catalogue/ website. Only make promises you can keep and be realistic in what you can do. Not Rocket Science, only what proper Traders have always done. I was thinking of writing offering any help that I could be, perhaps I should copy that last paragraph along with it. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Personally I would like to think that someone, who has some knowledge of the machine/s in question could and would help. The other thing of course is will he accept that help if offered! I would like to think so. Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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