Modelling a traditional parcels train

[Clive Mortimore]

Weren't the "Arrow" vans dual braked? The freightliner flats would have been air braked. 

[eastwestdivide]

16 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Weren't the "Arrow" vans dual braked? The freightliner flats would have been air braked. 

I had an idea that the flats weren't the AB freightliner flats but some other conversion, and vacuum-braked. [goes off to research... might be wrong - can't find much info at all - might be confusing them with the Condor VB flats?]

 

Later edit: see posts below this - I was confuddled.

Edited March 25, 2019 by eastwestdivide
lack of research results! ; and in view of later posts

[Fat Controller]

They were standard Freightliner flats, ten built in  July, 1967 to lots 3618  3619, a further 6 to 3638/9 in December of the same year, and finally, 12 to 3741/2 in July 1971. Info from Freightliner- Life and Times. Why a second build was done, four years after the first, I don't know.

The Condor bogie flats comprised some purpose built, vac-braked ones, alongside Boplate E and Boflat conversions; they ended their days on flows like Boulby to Middlesborough/ Tees Dock, some receiving air-pipes.

[eastwestdivide]

So the Tartan Arrow CCTs and the Tartan Arrow containers probably went in separate trains then?

[Clive Mortimore]

29 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

So the Tartan Arrow CCTs and the Tartan Arrow containers probably went in separate trains then?

No, they were in the same train. The container flats behind the loco then the CCTs and an exLMS BG. Two or three, (sorry I need to look up how many and which ones) LMS 50ft vans were air-braked for the service and repainted into Tartan Arrow livery. 

 

It use to be a rush after school to Midland Road station to see the "Arrow" come through Bedford. As there was a need for an air-braked loco it was normally one that wouldn't be seen daily at Bedford and would result in a cop.

[eastwestdivide]

Well there you go. I just had a rummage and found David Larkin's booklet General Parcels Rolling Stock - A Pictorial Survey, with a 1972 photo at Glasgow of M94229 in Tartan Arrow livery, clearly showing twin air pipes on the buffer beam as well as a vac pipe and a steam pipe. The caption doesn't mention the braking system.

While the listing in the 1976 (i.e. post-Tartan Arrow) RCTS coaching stock book has all the CCTs, including M94229, as VB, without exception. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by eastwestdivide

[Porkscratching]

You've inspired me to hunt for my old copy of Larkin parcels stock , found it, (eventually) forgotten what a great little volume it is...good call!

[Gibbo675]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

No, they were in the same train. The container flats behind the loco then the CCTs and an exLMS BG. Two or three, (sorry I need to look up how many and which ones) LMS 50ft vans were air-braked for the service and repainted into Tartan Arrow livery. 

 

It use to be a rush after school to Midland Road station to see the "Arrow" come through Bedford. As there was a need for an air-braked loco it was normally one that wouldn't be seen daily at Bedford and would result in a cop.

Hi Clive,

 

Here are some Tartan Arrow containers that appear to be on FFA / FGA typ wagons;

 

 

Gibbo.

[Fat Controller]

I'm not so sure about those being 'Freightliner' flats; I think the bogies look more like the ones fitted to Boplates and similar, and I'm pretty sure I can see side trussing. Interesting containers.

[Gibbo675]

9 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I'm not so sure about those being 'Freightliner' flats; I think the bogies look more like the ones fitted to Boplates and similar, and I'm pretty sure I can see side trussing. Interesting containers.

Hi FC,

 

I've just had another look at the photo and the obvious thing is that the the wagon in the background has one twenty foot and one thirty foot container and must there fore be approximately 52-ish foot long over head stocks.

Well spotted !

 

Gibbo.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Agree, the decks look far to thick to be FFA/FGA, and I think I can just make out the buffers in line with the deck rather than above them. They seem to be individual wagons rather than '5 sets' as the FFA/FGA would have been at that time as they are spread across a couple of tracks. Very interesting addition to a parcels train though.

[Clive Mortimore]

Diesel's in the Landscape, by Derek Cross has a photo as Remember the "Arrow" and the buffer beam of the container flat is higher than the the bottom of the container, just like a Freightliner Flat. The containers on two wagons are 20 ft long and three per wagon and on the others are two 30ft containers with the beveled tops. The cross section of the boxes is the then standard 8ft by 8ft. The containers would have to be less than 8ft high to fit within the loading gauge. 

 

 

And why bother air braking the brake van if you are going to use vacuum brake wagons?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Satan's Goldfish]

21 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Diesel's in the Landscape, by Derek Cross has a photo as Remember the "Arrow" and the buffer beam of the container flat is higher than the the bottom of the container, just like a Freightliner Flat. The containers on two wagons are 20 ft long and three per wagon and on the others are two 30ft containers with the beveled tops. The cross section of the boxes is the then standard 8ft by 8ft. The containers would have to be less than 8ft high to fit within the loading gauge. 

 

 

And why bother air braking the brake van if you are going to use vacuum brake wagons?

 

I really don't know enough about the service, but is it possible another type of flat was used before FFA/FGA became available? It's not a very exact method of looking at it, but the containers in the picture above have the top edges angled in for gauge clerance, the overall box outline if the corners weren't cut looks to be 8x8 which was the size permitted for gauge clerance on the FFA/FGA. So could the containers have been designed and used for use on existing 'flat' designs before the freightliner introduction, and then the modern 60ft flats used when they became available? The flat visible above does seem to be a 50ft vehicle with a 20ft and a 30ft container loaded which would carry over nicely if they knew a better air braked design was coming.

[Gibbo675]

50 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

I really don't know enough about the service, but is it possible another type of flat was used before FFA/FGA became available? It's not a very exact method of looking at it, but the containers in the picture above have the top edges angled in for gauge clerance, the overall box outline if the corners weren't cut looks to be 8x8 which was the size permitted for gauge clerance on the FFA/FGA. So could the containers have been designed and used for use on existing 'flat' designs before the freightliner introduction, and then the modern 60ft flats used when they became available? The flat visible above does seem to be a 50ft vehicle with a 20ft and a 30ft container loaded which would carry over nicely if they knew a better air braked design was coming.

Hi Mr Goldfish,

 

I have modelled these early Freightliner wagons but there was only a prototype set of four wagons.

 

Here are two links to the N Gauge Society:

 

http://newweb.ngaugesociety.com/?page_id=1646

 

http://newweb.ngaugesociety.com/wp-content/uploads/Tartan_Arrow_20ft_30ft_Containers.pdf

 

The plot thickens,

 

Gibbo.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

I really don't know enough about the service, but is it possible another type of flat was used before FFA/FGA became available? It's not a very exact method of looking at it, but the containers in the picture above have the top edges angled in for gauge clerance, the overall box outline if the corners weren't cut looks to be 8x8 which was the size permitted for gauge clerance on the FFA/FGA. So could the containers have been designed and used for use on existing 'flat' designs before the freightliner introduction, and then the modern 60ft flats used when they became available? The flat visible above does seem to be a 50ft vehicle with a 20ft and a 30ft container loaded which would carry over nicely if they knew a better air braked design was coming.

Hi Map

 

The Tartan Arrow service always used Freightliner flats. The containers were held in place with the air operated clamp system, not ISO tight-locks. The service started in April 1967, and the Freightliner flats built for Tartan Arrow were made in March 1967. Information on the wagons comes from Life & Times Series- Freightliner by Michael Collins. 

[47475]

This thread is full of fantastic images and knowledge.

 

I have a question regarding BGs in the late 80s/early 90s in plain red livery, without the usual twin yellow stripes and logo of the Parcels livery at that time.

 

They appear in a few videos online and in each case always seem to have the shape of a window painted in black on the doors that do not have actual windows. In this video (at 27:30) you will see an example:

 

 

What are the designations of these? Running numbers and any other info on them would also be most appreciated.

 

[montyburns56]

I'm guessing that it's a NCX or NEX and it seems to have Commonwealth bogies which narrows it down, although I've never seen one that wasn't in full Royal Mail livery.

[64F]

Returning to the issue of the Tartan Arrow conflats in the picture, is it possible this was a publicity photo taken before the service began?  They're clearly not Freightliners, but there was nothing else air-braked that fits the bill.  Maybe the containers were delivered early and to get some publicity/advertising shots they improvised with whatever flats were to hand?

[Clive Mortimore]

26 minutes ago, 64F said:

Returning to the issue of the Tartan Arrow conflats in the picture, is it possible this was a publicity photo taken before the service began?  They're clearly not Freightliners, but there was nothing else air-braked that fits the bill.  Maybe the containers were delivered early and to get some publicity/advertising shots they improvised with whatever flats were to hand?

Apart from Mk1 coaches, and a few  LMS coaches what else has a centrally trust underframe as can be seen in the photo?

[hmrspaul]

20 hours ago, 64F said:

Returning to the issue of the Tartan Arrow conflats in the picture, is it possible this was a publicity photo taken before the service began?  They're clearly not Freightliners, but there was nothing else air-braked that fits the bill.  Maybe the containers were delivered early and to get some publicity/advertising shots they improvised with whatever flats were to hand?

There are no brake wheels showing, so not Conflat ISO https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brconflatiso  or those used for Cobra https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cobraconflat. The use of the Condor Conflat B would be the obvious candidate for this service and they have lever hand brake which can be clearly seen on one wagon. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bogiecondor

 

Paul

[Satan's Goldfish]

22 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

There are no brake wheels showing, so not Conflat ISO https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brconflatiso  or those used for Cobra https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/cobraconflat. The use of the Condor Conflat B would be the obvious candidate for this service and they have lever hand brake which can be clearly seen on one wagon. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bogiecondor

 

Paul

 

Thought about your website earlier when this reappeared! Thank you for saving me from searching. The closeness of the bogies to the end of the wagon also look right for them to be the Conflat B. Good call.

[Tom F]

Fascinating thread, with some amazing photos and references.

I've noticed in a couple of photos, a BR goods brake van midway through the train. I presume this is because at some point in the journey the train will split with a portion that wouldn't include a BG, hence the Brake Van being required?

[Tom F]

Routing through the stock box. First three items of stock for my first parcel train.

 

I've also got a Thompson BZ kit on the way!

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 24/07/2019 at 22:43, 9793 said:

Fascinating thread, with some amazing photos and references.

I've noticed in a couple of photos, a BR goods brake van midway through the train. I presume this is because at some point in the journey the train will split with a portion that wouldn't include a BG, hence the Brake Van being required?

 

Not necessarily.

The brake van could well have been in that position when the train was being marshalled, and as it would be vac braked it wouldn't really matter where it went, and wouldn't necessarily be being used as guards accomodation.

Some "parcels" trains, the 5A00 on the ECML springs to mind, used to mop up various items of stock for dropping off at the various works on the way down, eg DMU's for Doncaster, so the guards vans seen could be on their way to or from repairs.

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Not necessarily.

The brake van could well have been in that position when the train was being marshalled, and as it would be vac braked it wouldn't really matter where it went, and wouldn't necessarily be being used as guards accomodation.

Some "parcels" trains, the 5A00 on the ECML springs to mind, used to mop up various items of stock for dropping off at the various works on the way down, eg DMU's for Doncaster, so the guards vans seen could be on their way to or from repairs.

 

Mike.

In colder weather, the 'van would also provide heated accommodation for the guard, in the event of steam-heating being inoperative for whatever reason; relatively few NPCCS brake vehicles had stoves fitted .