Modelling a traditional parcels train

[Rugd1022]

On 28/08/2021 at 20:03, montyburns56 said:

Ham Mill Halt 1964 by David Christie

 

 

 

I bet that sounded rather nice growling up the bank....

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

I bet that sounded rather nice growling up the bank....

Oh, yes indeedy!  But not as good as a Hall...

[montyburns56]

Southall 1963

 

 

[Nearholmer]

We seem to be a bit short of electric ones of them in this thread, so how about one of these, rather than the better known southern ones 

 

 

I think there were three generations of Tyneside ones, and some L&Y ones on Merseyside, but none of them were much photographed in traffic, which goes for a lot of first generation electric trains in Britain.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Steven B]

Winchester, 1981:

(Pete Robins on Flickr)

 

[montyburns56]

Kyle 1971

 

 

[montyburns56]

posted in wrong thread

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by montyburns56

[Nearholmer]

And, not a parcels van anywhere in sight.

 

Is it having a rest after hauling a traditional parcels train, perhaps?

 

(Oh, no. Looking at the headcode, its having a rest after hauling a traditional express passenger train.)

Edited August 31, 2021 by Nearholmer

[stovepipe]

On 29/08/2021 at 21:50, The Johnster said:

Don't be fooled by the diminutive size of a Hymek; they were pocket rockets, my favourite of the hydraulics. Canton's initial allocation replaced Kings on the South Wales-Paddington expresses, which could load very heavily, and were thrashed cruelly to keep time, but coped.  The experience of lifting a 900 plus ton drag up the precipitous exit from Aberthaw Cement works sidings at Aberthaw West taught me great respect for their abilities.  They were better riding than a Western at speed as well.

 

And apparently in those days with the fuel rack adjusted to produce between 1740 and 1860hp for those Swansea/Cardiff-London class 1 workings. The practice seemed to have ceased when sufficient Brush type 4s were in service to take the Hymeks off most class 1 work.

[Steven B]

Nothing traditional about this one - I've not seen a Type-5 freight loco on a parcels train before:

(junglebaldster on Flickr)

58004 as apparently en-route to Worksop for an open day. The rear most van looks like a TPO van, and the second is a courier van so perhaps more TPO than parcels.

 

Steven B.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Steven B

[Flood]

13 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Nothing traditional about this one - I've not seen a Type-5 freight loco on a parcels train before:

(junglebaldster on Flickr)

58004 as apparently en-route to Worksop for an open day. The rear most van looks like a TPO van, and the second is a courier van so perhaps more TPO than parcels.

 

Steven B.

Possibly a "what interesting stock can we send to an open day" scenario.

[Steven B]

The caption suggests it's an empty parcels train.

Interestingly, 58004 wasn't listed as being at Worksop open day in 1987:

http://www.bropendays.co.uk/worksop1987.html

 

There was an I/C BG there though:

https://flic.kr/p/fcD4zy

 

Some more photos of the train:

https://flic.kr/p/bdGiZi

https://flic.kr/p/bbG8bx

 

Steven B

Edited September 1, 2021 by Steven B

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, stovepipe said:

 

And apparently in those days with the fuel rack adjusted to produce between 1740 and 1860hp for those Swansea/Cardiff-London class 1 workings. The practice seemed to have ceased when sufficient Brush type 4s were in service to take the Hymeks off most class 1 work.

The D703x series locos involved were noticeably weaker in their later lives; there is no such thing as a free lunch.  The savage thrashing of brand new kit to run the trains to time seems extremely unwise in hindsight, but the situation on the WR was pretty desperate in 1962 and still dire in '63, because of an overall loco shortage brought about by the mass failure of Warships, for much the same reason, thrashing to keep time with heavy trains.  The Kings, which had replaced Britannias on the South Wales expresses, failed with cracked frames throughout late '61 and '62, again because of thrashing on the Birmingham 2 hour trains and the heavy South Wales services (continuous uphill from Severn Tunnel bottom to Badminton, and then give it all the beans you can get your hands on the rest of the way to make up time).

 

In 1962, the region was in serious danger of not being able to run it's timetable as good steam locos were starting to get thin on the ground, and pressure from the modernisers to scrap steam and replace it with diesel was considerable, to the extent that I remember being told that a shed allocated a new diesel had to withdraw 3 equivalanent steam locos to 'pay' for it.  With the Warships going down like ninepins and blocking bays at Swindon that were therefore unable to be used to build new Westerns, thereby delaying their introduction and the reason Crewe finsished it's batch first, the Loco Dept. was being hit by a 'perfect storm' at a regional level.

 

In South Wales, where the men did not traction sign the Warships, the demise of the Kings left no alternative to using brand new Hymeks on the Paddingtons in 1962.  By later in that year, the situation began to ease as Westerns became available, but the situation was dire, and the Hymeks were not far off going the same way as the Warships.  Very fortunately, throughout '63, as the remaining Westerns were delivered and Brush type 4s became available, the situation improved and sufficient locos of sufficient power to run the South Wales trains to time and with an acceptable level of reliability (there were still teething troubles, and the region was not really out of the woods for another year) being available took the pressure off the Hymeks, which began to perform the role they were designed for, replacing Halls.

 

In the meantime, a planned build of 100 more Hymeks, apparently this time geared for 60mph top speed to replace the 56xx and 42xx/5202s in the South Wales coalfield, had been ordered from Beyer Peaccock, who had troubles of their own and were circling the drain.  Not party to exactly what happened, but the story at the time was that B-P had paid for the materials to build them and then went under, partly or wholly as a result of the railways' delaying payment.  My 'source' on this was 'Tubby' Newman, a WR clerk working in the old offices at Queen Street and a mate of my dad's. 

 

With the Swindon Westerns delayed, Crewe and Derby committed to other orders, and the loss of the 60mph Hymeks, the hydraulic program was in tatters, and the WR had no option to order diesel electrics.  It was lucky in that Brush was in a position to supply as many 47s as it needed, and trials with a 37 borrowed from the Scottish Region in South Wales proved the suitability of another type that could be provided immediately in the numbers required.  The remaining 'good' Castles were concentrated on the Worcester/Herefords, and the pressure was off. 

 

All this conspired to seriously delay the D95xx Teddy Bears, not delivered until 1965, by which time there was arguably no need for them as the 94xx work they were designed for had mostly disappeared.  They were not well regarded in South Wales, the main complaint being that, if you managed to get one to go, you'd have problems stopping it!  They lasted in BR service until 1969, though there were instances of them being used after withdrawal; some 94xx had similarly short working lives.

 

Hymeks continued on Class 1 trains on the Worcester/Herefords following the withdrawal of the Castles in '65, but settled in to their 'Hall replacement' role very successfully.  They were more or less the go to for parcels work and did such secondary main line passenger work as was not the remit of the cross country and inter city dmus, and class 6, 7, and 8 freights; if a Hall or Grange did it before, a Hymek did it in afterwards.  They were brilliant little engines, and while the 31s that nominally replaced them were just as comfortable, they were a weak substitute.  In South Wales they were replaced by 25s, of which the less said the better, pathetic little things even compared to 31s, never mind Hymeks, but they were all that were available.

 

For some reason, the WR in the 60s and 70s never used 37s for passenger or parcels work despite the ER, NER, and Scottish regions having shown that there was no reason to prohibit them from such work.  At the time the Hymeks were withdrawn, there were a number of 37s in store at Margam, admittedly with steam heating equipment removed, but IMHO it would have been vastly preferable to re-instate steam heating in these and use them to replace Hymeks than the awful 25s.  They would have been able to solve all the problems on the Crewe-Cardiff 25 hauled trains (not so much a service as a vague intention to run one one day), for instance.  It may have been a cost issue, the 25s being more or less cost free, and the 37s requiring work to bring them back into passenger service, but IMHO it was a shortsighted and regrettable decision.  It wasn't as if the disappearance of the Hymeks was unplanned or unexpected!

 

In the end 33s, a bit better, appeared on the North to Wests, and eventually 37s, but both were hobbled by the need for eth, necessitaing limited loads down to 25 levels.

 

You will realise from this that I was a big fan of Hymeks.  Thrashed, they were capable of phenomenal performance, but I think that, as B-Bs, they would not have been as good as the 37s on Valleys coal work, and that the extra driven pair of axles were very useful here.  The 37s proved very competent on main line work as well, and double headed on the 1,600 ton Waterston-Albion oil tanks were enormous fun!  One would open the cab window on the climbs to Stormy or Llanvihangel just to enjoy the soundtrack!

[montyburns56]

On 31/08/2021 at 19:36, Nearholmer said:

And, not a parcels van anywhere in sight.

 

Is it having a rest after hauling a traditional parcels train, perhaps?

 

(Oh, no. Looking at the headcode, its having a rest after hauling a traditional express passenger train.)

 

That was an experimental parcel train where they gutted the internals of a Class 47 and filled it with parcels. They tried it again in the 90s....

 

By Alan Padley

Edited September 1, 2021 by montyburns56

[montyburns56]

Stewarts Lane 1959 by Geoff Dowling

 

 

[luckymucklebackit]

On 30/08/2021 at 20:31, Nearholmer said:

We seem to be a bit short of electric ones of them in this thread, so how about one of these, rather than the better known southern ones 

 

 

I think there were three generations of Tyneside ones, and some L&Y ones on Merseyside, but none of them were much photographed in traffic, which goes for a lot of first generation electric trains in Britain.

 

 

 

A photo of one of the later ones appeared on RMweb a few years ago

 

Saw both cars just before they were scrapped at Connells in Coatbridge, although to be pedantic these were motor luggage vans, not parcels vans, although their use for the odd sundries traffic could not be ruled out

 

Jim

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by luckymucklebackit

[Nearholmer]

I thought the Tyneside ones were specifically designated as parcels cars, while the southern ones were designated MLVs (but often used as mail and parcels cars).

[Fat Controller]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I thought the Tyneside ones were specifically designated as parcels cars, while the southern ones were designated MLVs (but often used as mail and parcels cars).

They had been called 'Perambulator Vans', but outside of high days and holidays, they would carry fish from North Shields. When both were being carried, there were instructions about mixing the two types of cargo....

[montyburns56]

York 1974 by Geoff Dowling

 

[Metr0Land]

A Southern selection:

 

33046 Guildford 2013 Maidstone-Reading  12-2-80  40 by Andy French, on Flickr

 

33046 Guildford 0355 Rugby-Redhill 3-4-80  42 by Andy French, on Flickr

 

33104 Farnborough 0945 Elgh-Clapham jct 28-9-82  80 by Andy French, on Flickr

 

Last London Bridge - Sittingbourne Papers by Richard Mann, on Flickr

[woodenhead]

Mayfield 1963

 

[montyburns56]

Paddington 1970

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

That’s a reasonable load, and I can’t imagine it will have had much of a turn of speed with that lot in tow; what we’re they rated for in tonnage terms?

[Mol_PMB]

I remember a childhood (mid-late 1980s) day out to the Meccano shop in Henley-on-Thames, when the return journey on the 'main line' leg from Twyford to Paddington was formed of one of those hauling a pair of passenger DMU trailers. Reading depot must have been having a bad day!

[45125]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That’s a reasonable load, and I can’t imagine it will have had much of a turn of speed with that lot in tow; what we’re they rated for in tonnage terms?

700hp to play with would move reasonably quick.