LSWRlinesider Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Dear Mark, Wondered if you had seen these poignant/charming images on ebay? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171321944769&ssPageName=ADME:X:SCO:GB:1123 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171321945379&ssPageName=ADME:X:SCO:GB:1123 These are 2 photos taken by a photo journalist of carriage cleaning women at Wimbledon (Durnsford Road) depot in 1917. They are high quality photos with lots of details, with 3 SUB "E8" in the background and coach no.7204 in the other. Good detail of livery and panelling and front end. The women of course will have been employed because of a shortage of available men, and no doubt some of these women had loved ones involved in the war. The frank expressions are quite compelling and uncharacteristic of photos of the era in my experience. Hugely enjoy your work. Kind regards, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 9, 2014 Author Share Posted May 9, 2014 Hello Matt, thanks for your post. Is it your first post on RMWeb? If so - welcome! Both images appear in the South Western Circle Monograph No 5 'The Riverside Electric', (along with a few similar pictures). However, the first of the images you have linked is closely cropped in the book, I hadn't seen the full picture before - very useful - thank you very much for that. I agree the photos are quite charming, and all the more poignant for being set against the backdrop of the Great War. I wonder if these girls witnessed the Zeppelins over London? Thanks again, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 LSWR 3-Sub: Update 18 An update sooner rather than later for a change! This week I had another round of filling, filing and rubbing the cab fronts. There are just a couple of small pockmarks to deal with and then they will be done. So yesterday I started looking at roof fittings. The first question was how on earth do you draw straight lines across a curved roof? If you use a rule the pencil just goes off at tangents. After a few experiments I came up with the following. Firstly I took a length of Plasticard and marked the positions of the roof vents relative to the carriage sides / referencing the drawings I have of the side elevation. The vent positions are not consistent - if you look at the carriage below you'll see there are three different widths of partition between compartments - so a standard jig wouldn't work. Next I marked the centre-lines for the vents down one side of the roof, then later along the other side of the roof. Then I found an odd bit of Plasticard from which I cut out the shape of the roof profile so it would sit across the roof and I could draw the centre-lines across the roof. The final picture is a composite of two photos for the purpose of illustration ... You can see I've marked the positions for ventilators and conduits. I've also drilled some holes and fitted some vents. The one thing I haven't marked-up are the rain strips, which are curved the length of the carriage. That, combined with the tight curvature of the roof at the edge would make it impossible to draw accurately (again, the pencil tends to veer-off at random angles) ... so I think the best approach will be to mark end and centre points. I'd then take some Microstrip, glue it at one end point, then allow it to form it's natural curve against the roof to the centre point and glue that. When that has set I'd do the same from the centre to the other end point. Anyway, I'm very happy to see the rooves coming together at last - it feels like the staging post between 'the end of the beginning' and 'the beginning of the end' . Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted May 11, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 11, 2014 neat solution I hate fitting vents and at least one is always wrong ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I always start rainstrips from the middle and work out symmetrically. Then trim the ends and cut any gaps (usually only on vehicles with two strips each side). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 You know.. if you'd asked I could have printed the roofs with the vent holes ready made Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
c2c Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 You know.. if you'd asked I could have printed the roofs with the vent holes ready made # Just the sort of helpful information you really needed to eventually receive at a time like this!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Hello Alan (and all), "You know.. if you'd asked I could have printed the roofs with the vent holes ready made..." Thank you - but I really wouldn't worry. A drill isn't exactly difficult to use I was just glad not to have had the job of making them by hand using layer upon layer Plasticard and then filing them to profile which would have added days or weeks to the project (and would probably have been less accurate and consistent than the rooves you have provided). When I started off on this build it was a voyage of discovery, with elements drawn from numerous sources and I didn't have a clue how I would fit them all together. I've been working it out as I go along. Additionally, I've not found any drawings (including those from the SWC) and only one photo which (vaguely) shows the layout of roof fittings on the original Subs, so I have sort of 'conjectured' from what I understand of later units and retro-applied those observations to my units. From that point of view I didn't know where the vents would go until a couple of weeks ago, so couldn't have asked you to provide holes when I ordered the rooves. If you have plans / dimensions for roof fittings and would like to share I'd be very grateful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparks Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Additionally, I've not found any drawings (including those from the SWC) and only one photo which (vaguely) shows the layout of roof fittings on the original Subs, so I have sort of 'conjectured' from what I understand of later units and retro-applied those observations to my units. From that point of view I didn't know where the vents would go until a couple of weeks ago, so couldn't have asked you to provide holes when I ordered the rooves. If you have plans / dimensions for roof fittings and would like to share I'd be very grateful Part 3 of the Model Railway Constructor article (Dec 76) has a nice photo showing the roof and vents, which is presumably where the vent layout on the side elevations came from. I was going to ask if you had the articles when I came across them, but then I noticed that the thread thumbnail appears to be taken from the drawings so I assumed you already had them...? I can send you a scan if it helps - please pm me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Hi Mark, Nice to see your progress on the 3 SUB. Have you considered covering the roofs with paper and having the small overhang at each end, reinforced with superglue, to cover the tops of the ends a la David Jenkinson? Ron Heggs is doing the same with his EMU models. Re. roof vents, beware drawings! Try and base your positions on photographic evidence when possible. My own experience of this matter came with marking out vent positions on the roofs of my 4COR trailer coaches. The draughtsman had the vents centred over the seats, where in reality, the vents were evenly spaced on the roof. This was presumably to avoid cross-framing in the roof and maybe for aesthetic reasons too. Photos can help if taken from a sympathetic angle. Beware that there were several lengths of trailer coach within the class too (but you knew that I'm sure!) All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted May 18, 2014 Author Share Posted May 18, 2014 Thank you Mr Sparks, PM sent. Very much appreciated. Colin: "Have you considered covering the roofs with paper and having the small overhang at each end." Neat solution ... That would be perfect for the middle cars in the sets. But what about the when it comes to the domed rooves of the driving cars? I'm saying that because of the amount of filling and filing of Plasticard I've done over the last couple of weeks to form the domes and am not confident I could replicate the same again using paper overlays no matter how clever I am at cutting / forming paper to the curves. Similarly the acute curves along the carriage sides. I really like your idea in principle, and I thank you very much indeed, but having thought about it I don't think I could make it work successfully. Maybe on a future project that doesn't involve domed cab fronts? I really want a 4-Cor for Frankland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EHertsGER Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 For N gauge hand-rails I've used thin wire from Eileen's, which I cut and bent into the shape of a staple and then pushed into the holes, using a pair of needle-nosed pliers. It took some practice (and plenty of rejects) to get the wire "staples" to be the right size to fit both holes at once, but it can be done. I then slightly bent the wire from the back to hold it in place, and glued it to the back of the coach side, where it doesn't have to be neat. I also loose quite a few to the carpet - I just tend to accept that I'll need to start with twice as many as will get attached in place. I think you might struggle with just gluing wire to the front of the coach sides. Superglue is very brittle, so if too much pressure is applied, it'll just snap off. If I were attempting that I might try holding the length of wire in tweezers and applying a thin smear of Evostick Impact, but I'd not be very confident about it being robust. As mentioned by others, definitely do the tumble-home curve first. When working on a side that's had a tumble-home curve applied, I rest it on a metal ruler with just the lower curved section hanging over the long edge of the ruler. That way I can apply pressure without ruining the curve. If I need the side to remain very still, I would use a few small pieces of blu-tac to hold the side to the ruler. Wherever I can I try to make handles with one short 'leg' and one longer - as long as the piece of wire starts out to be - so I can manipulate it using 1:1 scale fingers until it is in position and glued/soldered. Then snip off the long leg - and the shorter one too, to get it all as flush as you can. Best, Marcus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 LSWR 3-Sub: Update 19 Hello all, just to let you know this project hasn't died, but simply taken a slower pace. The advent of summer has prompted me to get out more and catch up with good friends and family ... and I had some computer problems to be resolved ... My soldering iron was kept very busy - having to replace 134 valves, 14 solenoids, and I've got through a load of punched paper tape too! The reason for the computer problems holding me up is that I take photos of relevant pictures and articles from books and magazines and keep them on my computer. That way I can quickly reference / enlarge / enhance details easily - as against having a big pile of books cluttering my desk, which has a working area of around A3 size - so space is at a permium. Anyway, that's finally sorted. So back to the matter-in-hand ... I'm currently cutting and gluing small sections of 010 x 020 Microstrip to the solebars which (hopefully) you can see in the picture below. They are a distinctive feature of these units inherited from their 'Bogie Block-Set' progenitors, and something that visually sets them apart from later units which did not have them. But none of the drawings I had showed them at all, and original photos made it very difficult to gauge their position as they are usually either taken from an acute angle, or are straight-on, but of only a small side section. For quite some while I've been scratching my head as to how to work out the postioning. So a very big thanks to 'Sparks' (post 209) who came up with the goods - drawings from Model Railway Constructor December 1976 The article also had a few other useful details - so many thanks to Sparks (Stuart) for that. The slices of Microstrip are 3/64th" high. Sounds daft I know, but neither 2mm nor 1/8th" were quite the right size, so 3/64th" it is. The only thing is measuring / cutting / fitting these has been doing my eyes in - so I've been doing just a few each evening. But either-way, the project continues to progress If nothing else this exercise is teaching me that in life, some things move at a very much slower pace than everything else, and there's no point getting frustrated about it. All the best, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 LSWR 3-Sub 20 Well I've finally finfished cutting and sticking very small bits of Microstrip to the solebars of nine carriages, more photos of which would be quite boring. ----------------------------------------------- And time to take stock ... Well here I am some year-and-a-half into this project (!) and I have to say I found myself recently needing to bring a fresh focus to proceedings ...I'd started to find myself a little bit lost: For instance I have four sets of drawings which differ in detail (or completely omit certain features), and similarly photos and texts which in some areas differ / contradict each other / are different to the drawings.On top of that I had a few 'chicken-and-egg' scenarios in my head on how best to progress. So all-in-all the last couple of weeks found me in a ball of confusion But what to do? Today I sat down, defined the key drawings and pictures I'm going to use, and discarded the rest ...Then (the picture below) I wrote down all the things I have to do in three columns (= order of progress), divided across broad areas (eg. roof details / cab details etc)----------------------------------------------------------- I'm away next weekend so I'm afraid there will be no progress to report for a couple of weeks at least ... but I do have one question: I was recommended to buy 'Two Part Etch Primer'. But the tin tells me very little about the product. Has anyone bought it / used it? My concern is that whilst it may be a good prep for paint on brass, what about the plastics and glues I've used? Will it eat into them? Or compromise them in some other way?Ok, well next update in a couple of weeks or three I guess. All the best, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted August 6, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 6, 2014 Hi Mark, just been reading through the entire thread which I hadn't seen before (it's only been 18 months after all!). A fascinating story and with some very useful tips - the clothes peg is my favourite! I love the "Welcome to Frankland" etch, a very nice gesture by Mr Pixels. I look forward to seeing that in place! The 3 sub is looking great (not that I have a clue about these things!). The various door fittings were clearly worth all the effort, it's one of those things that can make or break a model, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 LSWR 3-Sub 21 Hello all, Here's an update on proceedings ... I recently took a trip to the Bluebelle Railway which was useful for inspiration ... There's something about the LSWR salmon and chocolate that is so endearing ... Combined with my trip to York in the spring I had some useful reference points. So back to the matter in-hand. Here you see inter-carriage jumper boxes and their brackets. The three trailer cars now have their cantrails, rainstrips, two sets of conduits and vents. What I may still do is see whether I can dab little 'pips' of glue on the conduits to represent the retaining clips. We shall see. At one end of each trailer car the conduits run down the carriage end. At the other end the emergency chain mechanism is evident. In the above picture you may discern that I've gone quite heavy with the glue. 1) I'd rather err on the side of robustness 2) Once painted all-over black, and considering you'll not usually see these head-on, I don't think it will be noticeable. I'm now whistling a happy tune because I suddenly realised that structurally the trailer cars are ... finished! I've made the interiors, I have the bogies and trusses (which I'll fit just prior to painting) - glazing I'll fit after painting, so these are done, and dusted Yesterday I made a start on the non-motorised driving cars. So far I've just done one cantrail ... but I think it already lends a certain distinguished refinement to the cab front. Quite handsome isn't it Finally a picture of Frankland as it's been for the last eighteen months ... an extension of my work bench (desk) ... mostly covered with a very large dust sheet, which surprisingly is covered with a lot of dust. On it are three roooves upside-down whilst the glue dries in the holes drilled for the vents which I fixed in place yesterday. Well I hope everyone is enjoying their Bank Holiday Monday. All the best, Mark EDIT: I nearly forgot to mention: Headcodes! I'm hoping to get some etched headcodes from Allen Worsley Works... I did some drawings, although Allen said he will need to redo them. Originally I'd planned to just print them out and stick them on, but I'm now thinking these units are worthy of something better than that. From top-left to bottom-right you can see 'blank' (back of the train), 'F' basic headcode, and then headcode plus dot, and headcode plus dashes. There were other variations, but these will suffice for this project. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backofanenvelope Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Glad to see progress Mark, like most I suspect suffering from Frankland withdrawals But the 3SUB is coming along nicely.. keep us posted wot wot.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Fantastic stuff! I've been enjoying reading through this thread time and time again. Can't wait to see more buildings pop up on the layout. Best regards, Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Thanks gents, very much appreciated. "Can't wait to see more buildings pop up on the layout." Interesting you say that - on other forums people also mention the lack of new buildings ... they seem to like that aspect of Frankland more than anything else. Once these units are complete, and considering the RTR announced for the market (5-Bel, Schools, Maunsell and Birdcage stock), I'll be in a more comfortable postion stock-wise and can return to buildings again. Having said that - I do fancy some Ironclads, in particular a restaurant car if nothing else. But these 3-Subs really are essential: Frankland is commuterland, and no number of buildings could ever realistically portray that if the trains to convey the men with bowler hats and brollies aren't there to provide that set-interval service to their place of work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I think the headcode stencils will need to be in pretty thin material - I'd consider 2 thou." stainless which would be less likely to get accidentally bent compared to brass or beryllium copper. To thick a material and you won't get the necessary finesse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branwell Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 What I may still do is see whether I can dab little 'pips' of glue on the conduits to represent the retaining clips. Very impressive work. Just wondering for the retaining clips if there might be something in the Archers transfers range that might help? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Thank you Bernard. I'm not very au fait with that side of things. The headcodes are flat, but the cab fronts rounded, so I'll make some sort of mounting to prevent any accidental bending. I imagine the brass Allen will use will be the standard thickness for etched sides. I sort of tend to trust the judgment of others in things like this. Either way - the result has to look better than my original plan of utilising computer printouts and bits of plastic strip. Hello Branwell. I looked up Archers Transfers s I hadn't come across them before, and bookmarked for future reference. Thank you. In part I thought using dabs of glue on the conduits may help hold them more firmly in place - so as much practical as aesthetic At the moment the conduits are retained by just a wafer-then bead of Superglue - and I think I need to bolster that. -------------------- Thanks to everyone for feedback, comments and 'likes' - they are always very much appreciated indeed. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 LSWR 3-Sub 22 ... and one step back. I've had a few days off work and made progress on the roof details of the Motor Brake Composites ... What I am particularly pleased with are the pair of vents which you see just behind the four torpedoes over the cab front.They took me ages to do. If you look closely they are not surface mounted, but raised, so first I stuck a small shim underneath, and then add the cowelling on top (2mm long).Before mounting them I nipped a miniscule snip off each corner, glued them in place, and after the glue had dried sanded them with glasspaper to give them an 'air-smoothed' appearance.Quite fiddly, but worth the effort to get it right. All three MBCs are now done. Next picture:I spent quite a few hours going over each of the three composite in detail with a glass fibre pen burnishing them up ready for priming. I used a scalpel to get any gunge out of crevices and a cocktail stick to remove any residue of surface glue (etc) ... Something else I've done this week - the alarm 'Butterflies' on the end of the Composites (the top-right panel on the end of the carriage).A little dab of red on this at the end of this project will be the icing on the cake So then I sprayed the three Composites with Humbrol Primer. Looking good I thought ... until you see the next picture.I know it's not the best focus - but nevertheless you can see the crispness of the etching is gone. The lines I scored for the lower-half of the doors are lost. Look at the surface of the running board and it appears dusty. The finish is rough and textured ... Very annoying. I used Humbrol spray primer. I tested it out on a bit of Platicard a few months back and the result was a fine, glass-smooth finish. So I'm not sure where I went wrong. Shook the can well, sprayed from around 30cm, did a couple of light dustings (not one heavy one). Allowed half an hour between coats. This morning I got the glass-fibre pen out again. I'll just have to rub the lot back to how it was before and hope the process doesn't damage / knock off any of the fittings. Any ideas on what I did wrong? I don't want to make the same mistake again. Would I be better off using the airbrush to apply primer (I still haven't used the airbrush I bought at Christmas yet). Well there we are, all part of the learning curve I guess. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sheep Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I've found in other applications, not brass etches, that the smoother a surface is, the smoother the finish of primer is which might be why you've got a different result here than on your piece of plasticard. You'd be better off asking some of the 2mm guys who do etched kits as my experience comes from bike frames. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted September 6, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 6, 2014 did you use a etched primer ? and thoroughly degrease all the brass/nickel ? the undercoat looks to have dried in th air given the pitted appearance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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