And who says that home 3d printing can't do detail?

[Rabs]

I guess it depends on how you expect your models to be viewed. I build models with photography in mind, because maybe 99% of those that see my models will only see them in pictures and not in real life. I enjoy  taking macro pictures of the finished models, and set my standards accordingly.  And in real life the models should stand up to beeing examined from even closer than 15cm.

 

Very true, it does depend on what you want.  I'm interested in building a layout and I certainly wouldn't let people start picking up little bits of it for a closer look!

 

Out of interest, how would you go about making a better version of your part, or the Foden cab with it's complex compound curves that can't be made from a sheet?  I can't think of a method which would result in a better finished product at any sort of reasonable cost.

[Hawk]

Very true, it does depend on what you want.  I'm interested in building a layout and I certainly wouldn't let people start picking up little bits of it for a closer look!

 

Out of interest, how would you go about making a better version of your part, or the Foden cab with it's complex compound curves that can't be made from a sheet?  I can't think of a method which would result in a better finished product at any sort of reasonable cost.

 

For the Shapeways part I will consider printing the part on a Solidscape printer, get a metal master cast in metal, and shipping the master to Korea for brass castings. Maybe combine it with some other parts. 

There are also printers like the 3D systems Viper that can give better prints, but the service providers I have found using those machines are far too expencive. 

 

And I certainly do not rule out the possibiity that B9Creator prints with a thinner layer thickness can do the trick.

 

If I was to make a model like the Forden, I would probably start with a 3D print of some sort, and then sand it to a smooth shape, and perhaps use a sandable primer. As i model in 0-scale, I would probably go for a multi-media model with etched parts for things like radiator grilles, window frames etc. 

 

Finally, I will also balance  the quality of 3D prints against masters that can be made with conventional methods. 

Here is a brass master built with etched parts, some cosmetic brass boltheads and  brass parts filed by hand: 

 

 

Let me know if  I am drifting too far off-topic here...

 

Regards, Hauk

[Etched Pixels]

Nice bit of work but how many can you make in an afternoon and at a budget of 50p each ?

[-missy-]

Let me know if  I am drifting too far off-topic here...

 

Regards, Hauk

 

You are going off topic Hawk.

 

There will ALWAYS be someone or something that can produce better quality/more detailed/more accurate models no matter what you do. O Scale is easy as bits like bolts, pipework, etc are easily manageable, to try and reproduce the same in smaller scales like 2mm:1ft is a step away from madness. Lets leave the egos for another thread please?

 

Missy.

[Hawk]

You are going off topic Hawk.

 

There will ALWAYS be someone or something that can produce better quality/more detailed/more accurate models no matter what you do. O Scale is easy as bits like bolts, pipework, etc are easily manageable, to try and reproduce the same in smaller scales like 2mm:1ft is a step away from madness. Lets leave the egos for another thread please?

 

Missy.

 

Well, Rabs (who started this thread) asked how I  would go about making a better version of my part. And one of the options is making a handmade master in brass. So I included an image of another master I had built. I thought it could be interesting to compare handmade parts to 3D printed parts. 

 

The point was mainly to show that it is still possible to do things the old fashioned way. 

 

Regarding egos, there is no denying that there is always an element of ego involved when posting pictures of your work. I would guess Rabs also felt (rightly so) a bit proud when posting the images of what he has achived with the B9Creator. 

 

So I make no excuses for posting an image of my work, but I can agree that bringing handmade masters into the discussion was a digression.

 

In hindsight I can also see that the comment on the Forden cab came across more negative than needed. 

 

Regards, Hauk

[Etched Pixels]

Another thing to remember here

 

In 20 years time it'll take as long to make a hand built master like that is it does today (maybe more as you'll need to change glasses more often ;-) )

 

In 20 years time 3D printers will probably be able to produce that in brass at the push of a button and cheaply.

[-missy-]

Me again

 

The stuff you are producing is mighty impressive Hawk, there is no denying that. You really should start a blog or a thread on here, I can guarantee you will get lots of positive replys.

 

There is nothing wrong at all with going back to some good old fashioned modelling, I still do it and thoroughly enjoy it, the point was that this thread in particular was in relation to Rabs and his exploits with his 3D printer. OK, so as EP said, the technology is still in its infancy and there are still different methods that produce far better results, but 3D printing now has its place and is a very useful tool for producing certain items. The foden lorry I modeled is very much a 'throw away' model which I used to learn new drawing techniques. If I wanted a top quality, award winning model then I would have put in the extra effort and produced something else. This way I can see the results quickly and cheaply with minimum stress. Rabs has shown that the quality of 3D printing is getting much better and as EP has said, it will only get better.

 

Missy.

[Pugsley]

O Scale is easy as bits like bolts, pipework, etc are easily manageable, to try and reproduce the same in smaller scales like 2mm:1ft is a step away from madness.

I have just the technology for you :

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2013/02/13/its-a-small-world-after-all-nanoscribes-3d-printed-nano-universe/

[Pugsley]

And I certainly do not rule out the possibiity that B9Creator prints with a thinner layer thickness can do the trick.

I'm convinced it can, it just needs the right resin, with the correct level of pigmentation. I think it could rival a Viper for part quality and I'm going to try to find out!

 

Nice work on that axlebox BTW.

[Hawk]

I'm convinced it can, it just needs the right resin, with the correct level of pigmentation. I think it could rival a Viper for part quality and I'm going to try to find out!

 

Nice work on that axlebox BTW.

 

It is extremely thrilling that it is possible to compare the output from a B9Creator to that of the 3D Systems Viper! 

If I am not mistaken, the B9 costs around £ 2000,-.  I suspect a Viper would cost you around 100 times that. An extremely tabloid comparison, I know, but not totally irrelevant. 

 

I look forward to see what you can achive with your B9!

 

Regards, Hauk

[billbedford]

…and of course Vipers have much bigger build volume. And I suspect that the vipers have a much better expected working life.

[Trackster]

Please Rabs - keep this topic going! I for one is enjoying it immensely and check for it regularly. Some amazing stuff you are doing there! 

[Rabs]

For the Shapeways part I will consider printing the part on a Solidscape printer, get a metal master cast in metal, and shipping the master to Korea for brass castings. Maybe combine it with some other parts. 

There are also printers like the 3D systems Viper that can give better prints, but the service providers I have found using those machines are far too expencive. 

 

And I certainly do not rule out the possibiity that B9Creator prints with a thinner layer thickness can do the trick.

 

If I was to make a model like the Forden, I would probably start with a 3D print of some sort, and then sand it to a smooth shape, and perhaps use a sandable primer. As i model in 0-scale, I would probably go for a multi-media model with etched parts for things like radiator grilles, window frames etc. 

 

Finally, I will also balance  the quality of 3D prints against masters that can be made with conventional methods. 

Here is a brass master built with etched parts, some cosmetic brass boltheads and  brass parts filed by hand: 

 

Let me know if  I am drifting too far off-topic here...

 

Regards, Hauk

 

Not at all, I asked and you answered!  I've not seen a high quality brass master before and it's very interesting as a comparison.  It's probably worth noting though that (assuming that you have normal size fingers) that axle box is bigger than the entire Foden cab, and the leaf springs are about 3x bigger than the ones on the lorry.  That doesn't for a moment detract from it, it's a beautiful bit of modelling.  3d printing would definitely leave some stepping on the sloped surface.  It might be interesting to do a print of that exact part at the same scale, that way people can do a direct comparison.  I guess that, being hand built, there's no CAD for it though.  

A shape like that is definitely amenable to hand fabrication.  Compound curves which bend in two directions, such as the front or roof of the lorry, would be very difficult or impossible to reproduce in metal without using a 5-axis machining centre or by designing some cold forming dies - unless there's a clever method that I don't know about.  The cost of a machine which could do this would be £50k or more, so not an option at home.

 

Nice bit of work but how many can you make in an afternoon and at a budget of 50p each ?

Cost and time matters to you and me and I guess we're fairly pragmatic about following the 80/20 rule (80% of the result for 20% of the effort).  For others it's all about getting the best possible result, whatever it takes in time and money.  To each their own.

One other point I would make is that making a brass master of that quality isn't easy but hitting "print" is.  3d printing might not be able to give the best possible results yet compared to a very skilled individual,  I suspect it can already do better than most modellers can achieve by hand.

 

 

You are going off topic Hawk.

 

There will ALWAYS be someone or something that can produce better quality/more detailed/more accurate models no matter what you do. O Scale is easy as bits like bolts, pipework, etc are easily manageable, to try and reproduce the same in smaller scales like 2mm:1ft is a step away from madness. Lets leave the egos for another thread please?

 

Missy.

To be fair, Hawk was just answering my question and I think that the comparison has been helpful - I've certainly learnt from it.

 

…and of course Vipers have much bigger build volume. And I suspect that the vipers have a much better expected working life.

 

Both true.  How important build volume is for a hobbyist is debatable though.  So long as I can print my biggest model I don't care - I don't need to pack in a load of client's parts to turn a profit like a job shop would, so it's not a relevant spec point for me.  Working life is important if you're running 24/7 but not a criteria for me.  If I have to buy a spare projector bulb and replace a bearing here and there that's no problem.  I doubt that a viper's working life is 100x longer!  And even if it is then it's over engineered because it will be obsolete long before that.  I'm not for a moment saying that the B9 is an alternative to the viper in commercial situations, I'm suggesting that the B9 is an option for hobbyists whereas the viper definitely isn't!

 

Please Rabs - keep this topic going! I for one is enjoying it immensely and check for it regularly. Some amazing stuff you are doing there! 

 

Will do! 

[Pugsley]

…and of course Vipers have much bigger build volume. And I suspect that the vipers have a much better expected working life.

Yep, but the build area isn't that relevant for scale model parts in most cases (the Viper build area is 125 x 125 x 250mm in HD mode, btw).  Like Rabs, I'd never suggest that the B9 was suitable for intensive industrial use, but for personal use, or the production of limited quantities of parts for other modellers on a semi-commercial basis, it's pretty good.

 

The mere fact that a home use machine could rival the part quality of a $250k industrial machine is quite impressive IMO.

[Hawk]

Not at all, I asked and you answered! I've not seen a high quality brass master before and it's very interesting as a comparison. It's probably worth noting though that (assuming that you have normal size fingers) that axle box is bigger than the entire Foden cab, and the leaf springs are about 3x bigger than the ones on the lorry. That doesn't for a moment detract from it, it's a beautiful bit of modelling. 3d printing would definitely leave some stepping on the sloped surface. It might be interesting to do a print of that exact part at the same scale, that way people can do a direct comparison. I guess that, being hand built, there's no CAD for it though.

As you say, there is no CAD file for the axlebox, but I would not mind making one. It would be very interesting to see a direct comparison between a B9 part and the handbuilt master. In fact, I think it is unlikely that I will make a master by hand again. The time saved by printing masters can be used on other modelling tasks, most of them at least as rewarding as making masters by hand.

 

I also plan a H0 version of the model with the axlebox in question, so a CAD model could be useful for that as well.

 

By the way, If i was to make a CAD version of the axlebox, what is the thinnest wall you can print on the B9? And the narrowest slot?

[Rabs]

The thinnest free standing wall I've tried with intermittent success is about 0.2mm with 0.3mm working most of the time.  Narrowest slot depends on how deep it is, but for a 1mm depth I'd probably try 0.3mmt.  However, the failure mode is that it gets filled with resin so it's not a case that smaller slots can't be done but that you need to compensate for the printing process in the CAD to get the right final dimension.  Just as you would for shrinkage in a casting.

I'm very happy to give it a go.

[Pugsley]

I'd agree with those findings - the thinnest wall that I've had consistent results with is 0.4mm

[queensquare]

Just found this thread and its fascinating. As anyone who knows me will tell you my grasp of modern technology is limited to say the least!! That said, the results are superb and simply getting better all the time. Julia's Foden has come out very well - is Rab going to have a go at printing the Alchin I've seen 3D pictures of.

 

Jerry

[Rabs]

Alchin?  Not familiar with that.  Do you have a link?

[queensquare]

Alchin?  Not familiar with that.  Do you have a link?

 

Post 344 - proper wheels for traction engines would be wonderful.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65499-whats-on-your-2mm-work-bench/?p=1128479

 

Jerry

[Bluebell Model Railway]

NEW JUICE!

 

I've just received some new resin for my B9.  This is Spot-HT resin and it's great.   I did a first print with it of Richard's beetle van, which has now become my standard test print because I've done so many of them that I now know what to look for.

For the first time it came out perfectly, no small holes and all parts present and correct.  Previously there were always a couple of minor defects.  Also, the detail with this resin is much improved and the resin is much stiffer.  I'd now have no hesitation in choosing this as an equal alternative to an injection moulded part.

 

2013-08-20 19.02.15.jpg

 

Crisp strap and planking detail:

3.jpg

Check! (and note the rivets on the strap in the centre of the image - they are there, just a bit hard to see in yellow)

 

0.2mm door hinges:

2.jpg

Check!

 

0.15mm rivets and 0.5mm thick roofline:

4.jpg

Check!

 

Neat 0.5mm holes for buffers and coupling hooks:

2013-08-20 19.02.25.jpg

Check!

 

 

The microscope images are at approximately the same magnification as the examples earlier in the thread

 

.

Amazing, so much better than I am getting from Shapeways at the moment and at half the size... great work hope I can get something like that from shapeways... although its looking unlikely

[Chubber]

Well, I've looked at this thread with the same degree of amazement and incomprehension that the Wright brothers would have had had they turned around from their wood and canvas effort to see an Airbus fly overhead.

 

As I'm of the generation that watched incredulously as Raymond Baxter send a photograph of Maggie Philbin from one fax machine to another on the same bench in the TV studio, this latest foray into techno-modelling intrigues me mightily without inducing any desire to own a 3d printer, [i first thought it mean 'two printers for sixpence...]

 

It's the same the way that watching Candice Dulfer playing a saxophone delights me but doesn't make me want to rush out and buy one.*

 

I feel a little uncomfortable when I have to buy modelling materials rather than improvising with Packeto-Cornoflako etc., but thanks Rabs for posting all this. I have but one question i.e. what happens to all the sprues and supports? Can you melt them down and reuse the material?

 

Doug

 

* [saxophone that is...see here 

]

[Rabs]

Unfortunately not, they can't be recycled so you have to snip them off and throw them away.  On the upside, because you are making everything in one part there's far less support material needed than you might imagine.  A tiny fraction of what there would be in sprues if you had it as an airfix type plastic kit, for example.

[Thesmudge]

Hi this is a great thread, I am very impressed with the detail of the D9. I use a 3D printer at work from time to time and the resolution is 0.25mm ! Not great but still offers potential for modelling.

 

How long does a print take? a time for one or two of your test pieces would be interesting to know.

 

Thanks Tom

 

PS I have a CAD model of a bogie which you could print if you are still interested.

[Rabs]

Ok, the print time depends on which resin I am using.  The red is about 2-3x longer than the yellow.  I have another resin which should be faster still.

The print time is driven entirely by the height of the model because the projector exposes a whole slice at a time.  The most recent wagon print took about 8 hours and the lorry cab and person took about 1 hour.  There is enough space to print 2 wagons side by side if I want to.