Jon Fitness Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Hi peeps, On our 7mm scale layout, an additional crossover has just been installed from a goods loop on to the main, with a short headshunt from the goods loop. This will need a signal (good excuse for me to build one for ...me!) Now I have a rough idea how the LMS or BR(M) might have done this and the default setting for this location for me would be: LMS welded stem post with right offset bracket to carry two dolls a scale 11ft apart. One with stop and distant for the main and one with 2 shunt signals one above the other. Top arm to the headshunt, lower to read from loop to main. Sorry about the oddly appended photo but I'm not very "techie" when it comes to computer based drawings.. Just for fun, I have this idea to make 3 or 4 different signals for this location and swap them about when I fancy a change. So...any ideas how the following companies/regions would have configured this signal? I'm not sure if they had the same criteria for doll spacing etc and I only have space for one post/stem in the position shown.. GWR or BR(W) L&YR LNWR Cheers Jon Fitness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2013 Main arms as drawn, siding - yellow arm, also probable for LMS / BR(LMR) LNWR - straight post for both would be most likely LYR - same I think Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Cheers Dave. Trouble is I only have space for a bracket between the goods and the loco depot. Can't fit anything between the goods and the main. I'll have to look into this more deeply methinks...! JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2013 If the GWR had done it the date of the work would have an influence on what appeared but I'll look basically at the Grouped period - A bracket structure (earlier period wood, later steel, then the final pattern for the steel bracket although the balance might have dictated a gantry and examples did exist using a gantry in such a situation. Main Line signals - as LMS/LMR (but GWR pattern LQ arms of course ) Loop Although not too keen on it GW arrangements did exist with two arms one above the other including locations where one read to a headshunt - 3ft arms with rings - however by post war years this might well have changed to only an arm to read out onto the main and a disc to read to the headshunt. In older signals arms with rings would definitely be used and quite likely on two separate dolls. WR period - no change on the Main, Goods Loop signal a single 3ft arm to read to the main and most likely a disc to read to the headshunt but in some cases the older arrangement would simply be reproduced using arms without rings (they ceased to be used in new work from January 1950). For example a running signal with a route leading to a siding was renewed in the mid 1950s at Slough - in exactly the same form as the old signal which it replaced and using an arrangement (a centre pivot arm very closely bracketed off the main upright) to read to the siding, a method which had become obsolete in the 1920s and was not supposed to be used in new work after then. Ground discs if installed in the late 1920s/1930s - as you have drawn; if installed post-war (except as renewals) then most likely a single disc on the Main as well as the Headshunt; if installed post 1950 single disc for both (assuming the locking alterations were acceptable if the Main Line one was a renewal, multiple arm discs were sometimes renewed in the same form until well into the 1960s in order to avoid locking alterations and there were still one or two spares in Reading Stores right up to the time of the works closure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ah right. So if I read this right, and I'm heading for BR(W) 1950s the Western version would be as the LM version but instead of 2x3ft arms on one doll, I would have a disc next to the goods line signal. Is the doll spacing the same as LM at 11ft? After looking at various pics I have I would also presume the steel post version would probably have the goods line doll to the left of the main stem and the main doll further to the right, for balancing rather than both to the right and a load of guy wires holding it up as on an LM welded stem version! Cheers Jon F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ah right. So if I read this right, and I'm heading for BR(W) 1950s the Western version would be as the LM version but instead of 2x3ft arms on one doll, I would have a disc next to the goods line signal. Is the doll spacing the same as LM at 11ft? After looking at various pics I have I would also presume the steel post version would probably have the goods line doll to the left of the main stem and the main doll further to the right, for balancing rather than both to the right and a load of guy wires holding it up as on an LM welded stem version! Cheers Jon F. I'll try to check the spacing Jon, I think I've got some details somewhere which should help with the answer although I do know that it is much closer for the dolls on splitting signals of course. I would think the most likely layout would be - as you suggest - the Goods Loop doll to the left of the main upright. Guy wires seem to have been rare on GW tubular steel bracket structures and I can't recall ever seeing, or seeing a picture of, one guyed to another post as seemed to happen elsewhere. I do, somewhere, have a picture of a bracket for two lines with both dolls to the right of the upright but it is mounted in the top of a wall and is tayed with something far more substantial than guy wires although not against any turning motion likely to be caused by the weight of the bracket. Incidentally nothing to stop you putting the disc at ground level - I've seen it done that way too (signals for all occasions as far as Reading were concerned I think). I'll get looking for pics tomorrow afternoon as I'm off to the torturer chiropractor in the morning plus shopping etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2013 Cheers Dave. Trouble is I only have space for a bracket between the goods and the loco depot. Can't fit anything between the goods and the main. I'll have to look into this more deeply methinks...! JF Move it out to the left - as we are looking, i.e on the wrong side of the line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Next question is the one of yellow shunted signals as suggested by Mr Beast. If I use one at the end of the loop can I still have a disc to set back main to goods? How could I stop traffic on the goods while I set back? JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yes and it would be done by shouting ! - i.e local control hth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2013 Next question is the one of yellow shunted signals as suggested by Mr Beast. If I use one at the end of the loop can I still have a disc to set back main to goods? How could I stop traffic on the goods while I set back? JF Simple really - the line which has the yellow disc (to read out to the running) is under the control of the Shunter therefore the Signalman gets the Shunter's permission to move the points and tells the Shunter to stop moves to let in whatever is going in. Coming t'other way the Shunter asks the Signalman for the road and tells him it is safe to move the points. Going back to the original question I'm still picture delving but here is one Western example. Reading from left to right there are two sidings - one with wagons and one empty - in the Down Yard, then the Down Goods Avoiding Line, then a signal with 3 dolls (left hand doll is for the Dn Goods Avoider and has 3 routes on the indicator one of which is the headshunt, middle dolli sto Down Salisbury Line and right hand is to Down Main). Then comes the Down Salisbury Line, then the Down Main, then the Down Main splitting Home Signal, then the Up Salisbury Line complete with a Shunter in the four foot, then the Up Main Line and the Up Reception on the extreme right. Westbury South Signal Box part hidden behind the Down Salisbury Homes - 'orrible heavy frame The connections through from the Up Reception to the Down Salisbury were comprehensively wrecked by a spectacular derailment c.1977 - wagons totally inverted or on their sides, a diamond crossing vanished and the loco still had 15 inches of vacuum in the train pipe when I arrived about 20 minutes after it happened. Right mess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 That's a lovely selection Mike. The bracket on the left has the wider doll spacing I'm looking for. The bracket on the right is a sort of mirror image of what I'm after. I'm sort of visualizing a combo of the 2.. Cheers Jon F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2013 That's a lovely selection Mike. The bracket on the left has the wider doll spacing I'm looking for. The bracket on the right is a sort of mirror image of what I'm after. I'm sort of visualizing a combo of the 2.. Cheers Jon F. I'm still going through my older pics Jon and while I know I'm not going to find exactly what you want I think there might be some more 'mix & match possibilities to come, fingers crossed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D.J.K. Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 The signalling would depend on the usage to some extent. The road marked headshunt on your picture. Is there anything up there like a connection to the depot perhaps? Is the headshunt long enough to hold a loco and/or train? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 The signalling would depend on the usage to some extent. The road marked headshunt on your picture. Is there anything up there like a connection to the depot perhaps? Is the headshunt long enough to hold a loco and/or train? Cheers Dave Hi Dave, The headshunt is just about long enough for a small loco! JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D.J.K. Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Hi Dave, The headshunt is just about long enough for a small loco! JF Hi Jon OK, yellow arm to go in would work, along with a verbal instruction to come out. But if it was required to regularly hold a loco in the headshunt, to do something like back up on a train in the loop, then the move in and out might have been signalled in both directions. Much like your sketch. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2013 Jon, Doing a spot of delving on dimensions has produced some interesting results. Assuming a 'six foot' to GWR dimensions (which I realise you haven't got), with a signal post in the middle of it, the six foot becomes 10ft 6ins and the doll separation - from two separate drawings - comes out at 13ft 6ins. With a six foot at 6ft (if you understand what I mean) the doll separation from one drawing - the only one I can find - comes out at 11ft but that is to a 3ft arm and not the 4ft arm that you would have on the right hand doll. Alas I'am taking these dimensions from structures involving slitting signals as that is all I can find but in effect the 13ft 6" figure is not far adrift from the left hand structure on the Westbury picture which clearly has a wide 6ft between the Down salisbury and the Down Goods Avoider. Sorry to be the bearer of variable information but we are talking about GWR signals of course! Photo chasing still going on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 Jon, Doing a spot of delving on dimensions has produced some interesting results. Assuming a 'six foot' to GWR dimensions (which I realise you haven't got), with a signal post in the middle of it, the six foot becomes 10ft 6ins and the doll separation - from two separate drawings - comes out at 13ft 6ins. With a six foot at 6ft (if you understand what I mean) the doll separation from one drawing - the only one I can find - comes out at 11ft but that is to a 3ft arm and not the 4ft arm that you would have on the right hand doll. Alas I'am taking these dimensions from structures involving slitting signals as that is all I can find but in effect the 13ft 6" figure is not far adrift from the left hand structure on the Westbury picture which clearly has a wide 6ft between the Down salisbury and the Down Goods Avoider. Sorry to be the bearer of variable information but we are talking about GWR signals of course! Photo chasing still going on. Ok thanks Mike. I must admit the 6ft for diverging routes and the 11ft for parralell routes I have arrived at from a combination of LMS/BR "black book" drawings and Mr Warburtons tome may be "general" rather than set in stone, and I still factor in what "looks right" as well. I'll mock up some 13'6 and 11' doll spacings on paper and set them up at the layout! Your ongoing efforts to make sure I do the right thing with my GW signals are much appreciated! Cheers JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2013 Ok thanks Mike. I must admit the 6ft for diverging routes and the 11ft for parralell routes I have arrived at from a combination of LMS/BR "black book" drawings and Mr Warburtons tome may be "general" rather than set in stone, and I still factor in what "looks right" as well. I'll mock up some 13'6 and 11' doll spacings on paper and set them up at the layout! Your ongoing efforts to make sure I do the right thing with my GW signals are much appreciated! Cheers JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2013 One day you will learn that LNWR signal arms are not the only ones that go down Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 One day you will learn that LNWR signal arms are not the only ones that go down Well there's always L&Y ones........ JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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