Parcel & 'Paper Fleets...

[9C85]

I have literally just found the same image on the same site 

It really is a gold mine.

Thanks a lot.

[Fat Controller]

17 minutes ago, 9C85 said:

I have literally just found the same image on the same site 

It really is a gold mine.

Thanks a lot.

I remember seeing, during the mid-1970s, a Rail Blue Stanier 50' BG, lettered

' Newspaper Train Brake Van.

For Use On West-of-England Newspaper Train Only.

Return Empty to Old Oak Carriage Sidings'

The lettering was central to the vehicle side, and was in quite large Rail Alphabet script.

[9C85]

5 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I remember seeing, during the mid-1970s, a Rail Blue Stanier 50' BG, lettered

' Newspaper Train Brake Van.

For Use On West-of-England Newspaper Train Only.

Return Empty to Old Oak Carriage Sidings'

The lettering was central to the vehicle side, and was in quite large Rail Alphabet script.

I  believe I have such a vehicle.  See the 3rd coach from the camera in the first siding. 

[Fat Controller]

16 minutes ago, 9C85 said:

I  believe I have such a vehicle.  See the 3rd coach from the camera in the first siding. 

That's the type.

[br2975]

On 13/09/2020 at 11:16, 9C85 said:

Can anyone tell me, or better still provide a photo of , where the 'Newspapers- return empty to Manchester Red Bank ' ( or Old Oak Common/ Bristol Pyle Hill etc) lettering would be positioned on a GUV or BG dedicated to Newspapers traffic? 

Here is a scan of one of my 'makeshift' notebooks for Friday, 20th December, 1985 when I spent an hour or so on Cardiff Central.

.

Note the reference to GUV 93111  the thumbnail sketch and notes, which show a white painted bodyside panel below the window between the right hand doors and the centre doors.

The following was written on the panel;

 

Newspapers

This van must be returned to

Red Bank CS Manchester

TOPS Location code 31505

 

I have seen a published photo of such a branding, and suspect it was in the short lived Motive Power Monthly (MPM)

.

Hope this helps you on your way ?

.

Brian R

[9C85]

12 minutes ago, br2975 said:

Here is a scan of one of my 'makeshift' notebooks for Friday, 20th December, 1985 when I spent an hour or so on Cardiff Central.

.

Note the reference to GUV 93111  the thumbnail sketch and notes, which show a white painted bodyside panel below the window between the right hand doors and the centre doors.

The following was written on the panel;

 

Newspapers

This van must be returned to

Red Bank CS Manchester

TOPS Location code 31505

 

I have seen a published photo of such a branding, and suspect it was in the short lived Motive Power Monthly (MPM)

.

Hope this helps you on your way ?

.

Brian R

 

That really is very kind of you to dig out this information.  I have got some transfers which carry the same details but are white text on a blue panel.  I might stick some on a couple of my GUVs. 

 

I practically spent every Saturday (and a couple of midweek days in the summer holidays) at the western end of platforms 3 & 4 at Cardiff Central when I was a kid, with a walk down to Canton bridge if I was feeling brave. I reckon I finished 'spotting ' in about 1980, but I would always make the trek to Central rather than Queen Street if I had the time after a day in the city.

[br2975]

2 hours ago, 9C85 said:

I practically spent every Saturday (and a couple of midweek days in the summer holidays) at the western end of platforms 3 & 4 at Cardiff Central when I was a kid, with a walk down to Canton bridge if I was feeling brave. I reckon I finished 'spotting ' in about 1980, but I would always make the trek to Central rather than Queen Street if I had the time after a day in the city.

 

I'd given up'spotting' per se years before, but recorded what I saw for sort of research purposes i.e what the rakes of coaches were, what livery they were in, what formation the DMU sets were, what 3A12 picked up on its way to London etc etc.

.

Luckily, I kept most of my notebooks, and all my IA books, which came inuseful later whilst researching the late 60s and early 70s in the Cardiff area.

.

[9C85]

1 hour ago, br2975 said:

 

I'd given up'spotting' per se years before, but recorded what I saw for sort of research purposes i.e what the rakes of coaches were, what livery they were in, what formation the DMU sets were, what 3A12 picked up on its way to London etc etc.

.

Luckily, I kept most of my notebooks, and all my IA books, which came inuseful later whilst researching the late 60s and early 70s in the Cardiff area.

.

 

When I look back now, it's noticeable how practically all of the Canton DMUs on the valley lines kept to their original set formations, whereas you see film of other regions with a mixture of liveries, classes etc. 

[dvdlcs]

11 hours ago, 9C85 said:

 

When I look back now, it's noticeable how practically all of the Canton DMUs on the valley lines kept to their original set formations, whereas you see film of other regions with a mixture of liveries, classes etc. 

 

Possibly a regional thing. I recall from the early to mid 1980s that the Western region had reasonably well defined set formations, as did Scotland.

 

Other places, e.g. Tyseley, seemed to have more fluid formations.

 

Then, in the latter half of the 1980s when the second generation units started to appear, and various cascades (in both directions) happened, formations were often made up of whatever was available and serviceable. I guess Blue Star is Blue Star is Blue Star as far as DMUs went. <- Someone will be along to correct this assumption shortly ...

[The Stationmaster]

Western practice was very much to work on the basis of sets for DMUs and if a vehicle had to be taken out for any reason every effort was made to get it back into its correct set as quickly as possible.  This ractice was still the case in the first half of the 1970s but some depots probably paid more attention to it than others if they were up against it for spare parts etc.

[Grimly Feendish]

34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Western practice was very much to work on the basis of sets for DMUs and if a vehicle had to be taken out for any reason every effort was made to get it back into its correct set as quickly as possible.  This ractice was still the case in the first half of the 1970s but some depots probably paid more attention to it than others if they were up against it for spare parts etc.

Hi Mike,

 

just curious, why did the Western prefer to work in sets? Was there any operational advantage or was it just felt to be the correct way to do things?

 

Thanks,

 

John.

[The Stationmaster]

45 minutes ago, Grimly Feendish said:

Hi Mike,

 

just curious, why did the Western prefer to work in sets? Was there any operational advantage or was it just felt to be the correct way to do things?

 

Thanks,

 

John.

I think it made a lot of things much easier - for a start you were controlling  (from a maintenance mileage viewpoint) three vehicles as one instead of three vehicles as individual items so assuming - say - a fleet of three car sets you were dealing with keeping track of one third of the mileages.  i also made the tsk easier on depot and was no doubt a big advantage if balanced exams were used (although I don't know to what extent that happened back then?).  But in very simple terms you knew that when the power car at one end of a set was due a particular level exam it also meant the same for the one at the other end (occasional impact of substitutions excepted of course) so there was not need t constantly re-marshal sets to take out/swop power cars which were on different mileages for exams.

 

In the early 1980s I was managing a large passenger yard with quite a number of loco hauled coaching sets and exactly the same applied there - when a set was due for periodical maintenance or brake blocks it was a set, so not a question of shunting out individual vehicles at different mileages or frequencies which made the work a lot simpler and therefore more efficient.  and when it came down to it that was what it was really all about - making the best use of resources to do the job.

[br2975]

On 18/09/2020 at 23:50, 9C85 said:

 

When I look back now, it's noticeable how practically all of the Canton DMUs on the valley lines kept to their original set formations, whereas you see film of other regions with a mixture of liveries, classes etc. 

 That's very true.

I used to record the sets in detail, and added the set numbers when the WR started painting the set number on the cab front.

Typical (G)WR 

[9C85]

7 hours ago, br2975 said:

 That's very true.

I used to record the sets in detail, and added the set numbers when the WR started painting the set number on the cab front.

Typical GWR 

 

I can remember that the DMBS on C304 was W50088 (later W53088). There was also a Tyseley set T313 (IIRC?) which was unusual for the valleys as it was a hybrid with a half-first class centre coach.

 

 

On 19/09/2020 at 14:36, Grimly Feendish said:

Hi Mike,

 

just curious, why did the Western prefer to work in sets? Was there any operational advantage or was it just felt to be the correct way to do things?

 

Thanks,

 

John.

 

To quote Duck from a certain light blue tank engine series...

 

"There's the wrong way, then there's the GWR way"

[br2975]

6 hours ago, 9C85 said:

 

I can remember that the DMBS on C304 was W50088 (later W53088). There was also a Tyseley set T313 (IIRC?) which was unusual for the valleys as it was a hybrid with a half-first class centre coach.

 

 

From my notes / sightings:-

 

314      50088+59362+50130    05/04/1971   ( C304 by 02/08/1976 )

 

I don't know when you would have seen the Tyseley unit, although during the later 80s, when reformed into four car 'Cross City' sets,  they were borrowed from the B'ham area on Saturdays during the Five Nations to strengthen local units.

 

 

[9C85]

6 minutes ago, br2975 said:

 

I don't know when you would have seen the Tyseley unit, although during the later 80s, when reformed into four car 'Cross City' sets,  they were borrowed from the B'ham area on Saturdays during the Five Nations to strengthen local units.

 

 

 

It would have been around 1976, hence my recollection of C304. I remember seeing 9-car formations on rugby Saturdays, usually the down (ie 'up' in the railway sense) services in the mornings .

I am pretty sure the Tyseley set I remember was a permanent fixture at Canton for a year or two.  The driving cars were class 116 and the centre car was from a Pressed Steel class 117 - have you got anything for a set T333? 

[chrisf]

9 hours ago, 9C85 said:

 

There was also a Tyseley set T313 (IIRC?) which was unusual for the valleys as it was a hybrid with a half-first class centre coach.

 

 

You will find a refeence to this on page 17 of my thread dealing with Class 116.

 

Chris

[w124bob]

Railtec Red Bank GUV markings here https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=3888

and Bristol here https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=3889

In another thread I posted a picture of a GUV taken at Piccadilly with  the Red Bank instruction panel, on the Railtec sheet it's the white on blue background. A large white panel can be seen hear with the blue instruction panel just visible below the window.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/14647054816/in/album-72157634024568493/

and here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/6730442543/in/album-72157628952884109/

 

[Covkid]

Returning to the converted GUVs for newpaper sorting, and in particular one of the London based vans - either 85531 or 85534 (or possibly both).  One of these was part of a Euston-Birmingham Newspaper train formed of around a dozen bogied vansand worked by an AC electric loco. At New St the Walsall van was detached and ran as 1G04 approx 0317 Birmingham-Walsall worked by a class 45/1 with a Saltley crew. On platform 1 at Walsall the WH Smith vans backed up to the platform and unloaded the van. It then ran as 5G17 Walsall-Curzon St via Ryecroft Jn and Sutton Park, without the loco having to shunt, whereupon the loco went to Vuaxhall carriage shed for passenger stock and the van was shunted into empty vans to return to Euston Downside for the night's duty. 

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread, these vans had their end doors replaced by steel "coach" ends with pullman gangways, also having a toilet, flourescent lighting and benches for bundling the newspapers for the retailers.

 

I am guessing similar operations worked in other areas and am also guessing there were at least 30 of these converted vans given the Walsall one was always either 85531 or 85534 - struggling with my memory now !!!  

 

Obviously this kind of working would be ideal for the modeller with limited space.

 

EDIT - I think the train was subsequently diagrammed a 31/4 which would subsequently have worked the first Birmingham-Norwich, after the class 45/1 which may have worked something like the 0730 Birmningham-Newcastle, or maybe a Paignton or Plymouth service.   

Edited September 23, 2020 by Covkid
More info

[9C85]

I have a question about train formations and TOPS relating to Newspapers, Mail and Parcels trains: 

Did TOPS specify which coach would go into a train and in which order ie down to coach number level, or did it just specify something like '4 x GUV, 1 x BG, 2 x GUV, 1 x BG' for a  particular working. 

I am hoping that it's the former as it would give me an excuse to shunt my NPCCS around a bit more. 

I have an idea involving the  binary numbering system and a bingo machine.... not a sentence many people would expect to type on a Monday morning 

[doilum]

1 hour ago, 9C85 said:

I have a question about train formations and TOPS relating to Newspapers, Mail and Parcels trains: 

Did TOPS specify which coach would go into a train and in which order ie down to coach number level, or did it just specify something like '4 x GUV, 1 x BG, 2 x GUV, 1 x BG' for a  particular working. 

I am hoping that it's the former as it would give me an excuse to shunt my NPCCS around a bit more. 

I have an idea involving the  binary numbering system and a bingo machine.... not a sentence many people would expect to type on a Monday morning 

It might be more reliable than current track& trace!

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, 9C85 said:

I have a question about train formations and TOPS relating to Newspapers, Mail and Parcels trains: 

Did TOPS specify which coach would go into a train and in which order ie down to coach number level, or did it just specify something like '4 x GUV, 1 x BG, 2 x GUV, 1 x BG' for a  particular working. 

I am hoping that it's the former as it would give me an excuse to shunt my NPCCS around a bit more. 

I have an idea involving the  binary numbering system and a bingo machine.... not a sentence many people would expect to type on a Monday morning 

TOPS said what was in a train (after it had been given the information) and it did not say what had to go into a train.  The formation was covered by the relevant Train Marshalling and Formation Instructions plus in some cases the Circuit working details.  And at larger stations, esecially where trains orgnated, the formations would also be detailed in the Station Working Book(let).

 

In some cases the latter could be quite detailed.  For example from the Winter 1970/71 Paddington Station Working Book the 02.15 Newspaper Train to Swindon, Bath, and Bristol (T.M.) was formed as follows -

(from the engine) -

2 GUV (MO) ... ...  Bristol (T.M.)

   GUV (MX)  ... ...  ditto

   BSK    ...  ... ... ..  ditto. Gangwayed for toilet purposes. For conveyance of Traincrew from Swindon.  And Mondays Only passengers from Bath to Bristol

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No. 1046. Gangwayed for toilet purposes 

Siphon G   ,,, ,,, ..  ditto    Vehicle No.1024.    ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No.1023.    ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No. 2930.   ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto,   Vehicle No. 1010.   ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No. 1328.   ditto

BG (274).   ... ... ..  Gloucester

Siphon G   ... ... ..   ditto.   Vehicle No.1034.

GUV (News)  ... ..   Swindon 

Edited October 5, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[9C85]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

TOPS said what was in a train (after it had been given the information) and it did not say what had to go into a train.  The formation was covered by the relevant Train Marshalling and Formation Instructions plus in some cases the Circuit working details.  And at larger stations, esecially where trains orgnated, the formations would also be detailed in the Station Working Book(let).

 

In some cases the latter could be quite detailed.  For example from the Winter 1970/71 Paddington Station Working Book the 02.15 Newspaper Train to Swindon, Bath, and Bristol (T.M.) was formed as follows -

(from the engine) -

2 GUV (MO) ... ...  Bristol (T.M.)

   GUV (MX)  ... ...  ditto

   BSK    ...  ... ... ..  ditto. Gangwayed for toilet purposes. For conveyance of Traincrew from Swindon.  And Mondays Only passengers from Bath to Bristol

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No. 1046. Gangwayed for toilet purposes 

Siphon G   ,,, ,,, ..  ditto    Vehicle No.1024.    ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No.1023.    ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No. 2930.   ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto,   Vehicle No. 1010.   ditto

Siphon G   ... ... ..  ditto.   Vehicle No. 1328.   ditto

BG (274).   ... ... ..  Gloucester

Siphon G   ... ... ..   ditto.   Vehicle No.1034.

GUV (News)  ... ..   Swindon 

Wow!

Thanks for the comprehensive information. 

Let my eBay search for a bingo machine commence!

[caradoc]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

TOPS said what was in a train (after it had been given the information) and it did not say what had to go into a train.

 

Of course, although on the other hand it was not unknown, on very quiet days in Mossend TOPS office, for us to ask the yard staff to shunt the wagons in a particular road into numerical order, to give us (and them) something to do. Their usual reply was unprintable......

 

[keefer]

As The Stationmaster says, the relevant vehicles are listed in the Passenger Train Marshalling books etc.

This is an example I happen to have handy from a reply to another post, I think it was SWD Loco-hauled workings:

 

 

That said, other PTM entries may just specify BG, GUV etc. with any other qualification coming from the train itself i.e. air-braked, ETH, 100mph.

The circuit workings will go into more detail as they indentify the previous/current/next workings for individual coaches, subject to actual requirements.

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by keefer