Radley MET Dreadnought Coach Kit

[rue_d_etropal]

Just received a copy of that book , Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock by James R Snowdon. excellent, plenty of info and drawings. Now I need something similar for locos. Then I can think about some models in HO, yes HO .as it is nearer to proper scale gauge than OO,

[Jeff Smith]

"Nearer the proper scale"? Explanation please! There are plenty of Metropolitan loco kits in 4mm......just build them in EM or P4 and use appropriate track.....

[rue_d_etropal]

why should I have to change gauge, when 16.5mm is well supported. The opportunities for different scales is far better now with 3D printing. Also a smaller reduction in the size actually reduces price for 3D printing quite a lot.

Most people don't want to have to mess round with EM or P4, although I have been suggesting on other threads that EM gauge r2r would have interest from those modelling broader gauges, as already happens with anyone wanting to model Australian trains.

[Jeff Smith]

So you would change the whole model to 1/87th just in order to use 16.5mm track? This does not make much sense as there isn't any British practice HO track available RTL.

[rue_d_etropal]

I am not suggesting everyone should change, just offer it as an option. British HO has been growing in popularity over past few years.

One of the best and most influential modellers in the past is Jack Nelson. He modelled the LNWR in HO, and knew a lot more about layout presentation than some do today. Some of his work is being restored at the moment and I have talked to some of those involved.

Also many modelling 4mm/ft will sneak a lot of HO stuff into their models, in particular buildings and ships, not forgetting trams. Current Manchester models are HO, not OO.

Edited July 2, 2016 by rue_d_etropal

[Jeff Smith]

When I get home I will check my library for Metropolitan/LT loco books.

[rue_d_etropal]

One thing I might like to mention. It might say Lancashire against my name, but I am a born Metrolander, namely Croxley Greeen, and my cousin's grandfather was stationmaster at Rickmansworth. My grandfather happened to be works manager at Scammells, but that is another story. It is one reason I have a very broad spectrum of interest. Just need to find some drawings for Oekilon stock, and I can also think about something for the LNWR branches in my old area..

Some of the ex Metropoliton coaches were sold to a French railway, adding another opportunity for me, given my interest in French railways.

[Jeff Smith]

Simon - finally made it home.....the only Metropolitan loco book I have is 'Metropolitan Steam Locomotives' by Frank Goudie, Capital Transport ISBN185414 118 X, 1990.  Photos and descriptions but no drawings of any use.

 

Otherwise of course 'Metropolitan Electric Locomotives' by K R Benest, The London Underground Railway Society ISBN 0 9508793 1 2, includes a dimensioned four view drawing of the prototype Bo-Bo.

 

Then there is 'The London Underground Surface Stock Planbook' by Ian Huntley, Ian Allen/LT Museum ISBN 0 7110 1721 2.  This has many useful 2 view drawings of Metropolitan and District locos and passenger stock, going right back to Gooch's Metropolitan 2-4-0T of 1862.  I have seen criticism of the accuracy of some of these drawings but better to have than not have, it's a very nice book.

 

All of these books are long out of print, mine are all from used sources.

[rue_d_etropal]

I remember the 'The London Underground Surface Stock Planbook', might even have a copy, but not sure. Quite a few copies for sale online, but the difference between UK and non UK prices is crazy. Not talking a few pence, but a lot of pounds.

[RogerE]

One thing about the Jim Snowdon book is that he worked(*) for LT, and had full access to the drawing office archive, so would be happy to assume that where they differ from the Huntley drawings the Snowdon ones are probably more accurate. His drawings of the Ashbury stock are pretty well spot on, and were used by Clive Thomas when he produced the etched brass Chesham stock that is now marketed by John Redrup's London Road Models.

 

(*)I haven't seen him since before the book was published so don't know if he still works for LT.

 

Changing the subject slightly - do we know when Radley will be releasing the other Dreadnoughts in resin?

[rue_d_etropal]

Accuracy of drawings has been an issue for over 50 years in the hobby. I think there are doubts on some classic scale drawings. For me getting exactly right is not the issue. In the scales I am interested I suspect it is not that easy to spot. I am not interested in designing every part for 3D printing, just the basic(and for many the most important) structure. For coaches I am thinking , roof and body would be one piece, Chassis not sure, but basic, and only include essential detail. Far better to build much of it using traditional skills. One thing that does appeal to me is that coaches were essentially modular designed with compartments of common size, so all I have to do is design it once9or how ever many variations there are) and build coach from components.

Going back to scale drawings, I wonder if whether working for LT does have advantages. Much stock was built by other companies and files and drawing would be with those companies. One you find those collections anyone should be able to create drawings to same quality, assuming they have the skills. Many of the drawings I see have a rider on to say they are based on old photos.

I was recently directed to an excellent online source of BR drawings, official ones, but detail only showed essential measurements, no wheel or chassis detail which I could find elsewhere. Probably the type of drawings that have been used to produce the scale drawings often seen.

At the end of the day, if it looks right then it is right. Far too many models are spoiled by having one part dead accurate and another about average. even figures in coaches, many recommend using HO ones in OO coaches as they actually look better.

I have a lot of projects I want to do models for. Being born and bred in Metroland , something draws me to the subject, and I am indirectly related(cousin's grandfather) to the station master(and a lot of other property management duties) at Rickmansworth during Metropolitan days I believe. His name was Higgins, but I have not found any info online. My other interests lie with Scammell lorries, as my grandfather was works manager there, and I plan to visit Leyland museum at sometime to try and dig out info, both technical and social about Scammells, including connection to France, my other passion. A small Metro/LT themed layout as well as an LNWR one might result.

[Lord of Narnia]

The new Dreadnoughts are on sale at http://www.radleymodels.com/all-new-dreadnoughts.html

 

I'm waiting for a 7 comp brake.

[Lee-H]

Were the Dreadnoughts ever painted in LT red or did they go straight from teak to brown? Radley’s web site shows a painted model in red but is that an authentic livery?

[chris45lsw]

Dreadnoughts were never red - ended their lives in brown.

 

Chris KT

[Jeff Smith]

The brake ends were red of course.....

[Engineer]

  Confirm the teak to brown change, taking place during the LT era. 

 

Dreadnought brake ends were painted red from the early 1950s, and there had been some experimental livery trials early in the LT 1930s era -  one train of six Dreadnought vehicles in Olive green with red waist, another train of six vehicles light green with red waist [source:  Surface Stock Handbook, Hardy, B. R.].

 

Have posted before, but just for reference, the brown colour was formally title 'Metro Brown' and is one of the colour sample cards in the images here: 

 

 

 

[Lee-H]

13 hours ago, Engineer said:

  Confirm the teak to brown change, taking place during the LT era. 

 

Dreadnought brake ends were painted red from the early 1950s, and there had been some experimental livery trials early in the LT 1930s era -  one train of six Dreadnought vehicles in Olive green with red waist, another train of six vehicles light green with red waist [source:  Surface Stock Handbook, Hardy, B. R.].

 

Have posted before, but just for reference, the brown colour was formally title 'Metro Brown' and is one of the colour sample cards in the images here: 

 

 

 

Great stuff, many thanks, Engineer.

[jim.snowdon]

On 13/07/2016 at 10:51, rue_d_etropal said:

Going back to scale drawings, I wonder if whether working for LT does have advantages. Much stock was built by other companies and files and drawing would be with those companies. One you find those collections anyone should be able to create drawings to same quality, assuming they have the skills. Many of the drawings I see have a rider on to say they are based on old photos.

It certainly did when I worked for London Underground and was researching the book on the Metropolitan Railway's rolling stock. Most of the works drawings were still in the LU archives, having been rather handily transferred to microfilm. There were also still huge numbers of the original District Railway and other drawings in the archives, few of which interested the Museum. A great many were saved from the rubbish skip by the London Underground Railway Society.

As far as the Metropolitan was concerned, they had a fully fledged works at Neasden, along with a drawing office, so although much (but not all, of their stock was contractor built, there are few drawings in the Metro-Cammell archives. Their predecessors simply built according to the drawings that were sent to them by Neasden.