RosiesBoss Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Hello, I am about to assemble a Falcon Brass kit for a 10 ton TVR brake van. I intend to paint and letter the model in post-grouping GWR colours, but do not know what running number(s) may be appropriate or how long such brake vans remained in service. Can anyone help here? Regards, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 G'day, 81C, Thanks for your help. I know of the TVR brake van pic on GWR Modelling. Like the photos in Great Western Way, it is in TVR livery. Hovever, I'm planning to finish my model in GWR livery, so I'm after details of running number and withdrawal dates by the GWR after 1923. Regards, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted January 17, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2013 You could try asking John Lewis, the HMRS GWR rolling stock company steward. Even if you are not a member he can be contacted via the HMRS website www.hmrs.org.uk. He is incredibly knowledgable. There seems to be nothing in the HMRS photo collection. Unfortunately the Welsh Railways Research Circle does not currently have anyone covering the Taff Vale. Jonathan David HMRS Rhymney Railway steward) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Found it. I knew I had a photo of an ex TVR goods brake van in GWR livery. 68963 in non-standard GWR livery plus another TVR but the number is not visible. Notice that the number is central and the Tare is on the left hand end. Also the allocation "CATHAYS" is on a board. It still has its original axleboxes and buffers. i don't know where this photo came from; there is no copyright written on it. In 1926/7 the number 68963 was reused for a new AA18 brake van. The 14 AA18 vans were numbered from 68913 to 68971 with gaps. What I think happened was the TVR Goods Brake Vans were renumbered somewhere in this sequence. Some only survived a couple of years and others a bit longer. AA18s took the numbers of condemned TVR GBVs. I know similar reuse of numbers for new GBVs was affected by surviving Rhymney GBVs. If I were you and wanted a number of a TVR GBV that lasted beyond 1926 I would choose one of the numbers close to 68963 that was not given to an AA18. These numbers are 68950 to 60, 68962, 68964, 68966, 68969 & 68970. You could of course wait until the Welsh Railways Research Circle publishes its book of TV drawings which will probably include know numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I'm not sure but suspect that this is the same beast. It certainly looks just like the one in the photo (very useful thanks Penrhos1920).I have a 4mm scale etched kit from Dragon models (http://www.dragonmodelswales.co.uk) of a "TVR 11 Ton Goods Brake Van". The drawing that accompanies the kit is T.L.Jones Drawing TVW/3 showing a 10Ton van. In their instructions Dragon quote "known G.W. Nos. are 43923, 68863 and 68901, confirmed from photographs" but does not say where the photographs were found. These are lower than the ones suggested by Penrhos1920. I've no idea what period they represent. I haven't built the kit yet it's in my pile of "to do one day". It was shown completed in "Small suppliers forum" in MRJ. I really ought to get some of their Rhymney vans if they do them in 4mm too. Hope this helps a bit, Darwinian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 19, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2013 I've got one of those Dragon Models kits too, that I bought several years ago. I've just started assembling it; with luck I should have it finished by this time next week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 The number on the photograph in Penrhos1920's post looks a lot like 68863 and is possibly the same photograph that 'confirmed' that number given in the instructions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 The number on the photograph in Penrhos1920's post looks a lot like 68863 and is possibly the same photograph that 'confirmed' that number given in the instructions? That could be an exaplanation but Penrhos1920 says it was 68963. On my computer screen it isn't entirely clear which is correct although it does look more like 68863. Maybe Penrhos 1920 you could hae a close look at your original and confirm it? Darwinian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 That could be an exaplanation but Penrhos1920 says it was 68963. On my computer screen it isn't entirely clear which is correct although it does look more like 68863. Maybe Penrhos 1920 you could hae a close look at your original and confirm it? Darwinian I would marginally favour 68963 - the two adjacent figures do look different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hello everyone, Thanks for the help so far. I took Jonathan David's advice to email John Lewis at the HMRS. His reply has been: Hello Robert, The only GWR Numbers of TVR brake vans I have are: TVR 491 GWR 68765 Renod. Dec 1922. Cond Dec 1930 TVR 644 GWR 68912 Renod. Dec 1924. Cond Aug 1932 They were both 10 ton GBVs. I hope this is of some help. Best wishes John So, it looks like I have some choice in choosing a suitable number. The photo from Penhros1920 is a real gem! Regards, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I've had a closer look at the photo and I prefer 68963 as I originally said. Steve B (can't find surname but lives in Nottingham) is wagon steward of the The Great Western Study Group. I the past we have corresponded about absorbed wagons, but not TVR GBVs. However, in talking about other GBVs Steve wrote that most absorbed GBVs were in the 68xxx series; only ANDR, Cambrian and MSWJ were numbered elsewhere. 43923 is in the middle of number series of what are generally tank wagons. So I would err on the side of caution with this number until you can see the photo for yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I've had a closer look at the photo and I prefer 68963 as I originally said. Steve B (can't find surname but lives in Nottingham) is wagon steward of the The Great Western Study Group. I the past we have corresponded about absorbed wagons, but not TVR GBVs. However, in talking about other GBVs Steve wrote that most absorbed GBVs were in the 68xxx series; only ANDR, Cambrian and MSWJ were numbered elsewhere. 43923 is in the middle of number series of what are generally tank wagons. So I would err on the side of caution with this number until you can see the photo for yourself. Thanks Penrhos1920 as you have the original I'm happy to accept that it is 68963. Thanks too for the caution on the 43923 number, it does sound a bit suspect to say the least. I must make a note of the more likely numbers and put it with the kit so I can use one of those. I'm bound to forget about this thread when I get around to building mine. Of course to be strictly accurate I'll need to know the allocation as well . On the other hand I could just wait for the WRRC to publish their TVR volume. I've got the Rhymney one and very interesting it is too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Hello everyone, I've almost completed assembly of the Falcon brass kit. I now have a couple of unresolved issues: 1. The two images of TVR GBVs in "Great Western Way" (2nd ed) clearly show the hole in the ends through which a tail light could shine. This is not clear in the image (above) of GWR 68963. Were these holes plated over or otherwise closed post-grouping? 2. The kit has no brake rigging details or the pieces from which to make them. All the photos I have seen so far (both pre- and post-grouping) have the brake rigging in shadow with none of the details clear to see. Are there any drawings (or other images) around of the brake rigging, so I can complete the model using bits from my scrapbox? Regards, Rob ps I would have posted an "under construction" image, but I'm still a novice here and can't seem to work out how to do this within a "reply". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 ps I would have posted an "under construction" image, but I'm still a novice here and can't seem to work out how to do this within a "reply". Choose 'more reply options' there is then a button to attach photos below the text field. If you have the photos hosted elsewhere an alternative is to wrap the URL in image tags subject to the hosts policies on hot linking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted January 27, 2013 Author Share Posted January 27, 2013 Thank you richbrummit. Here's the in-progress image: Regards, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hello everyone, I've almost completed assembly of the Falcon brass kit. I now have a couple of unresolved issues: 1. The two images of TVR GBVs in "Great Western Way" (2nd ed) clearly show the hole in the ends through which a tail light could shine. This is not clear in the image (above) of GWR 68963. Were these holes plated over or otherwise closed post-grouping? 2. The kit has no brake rigging details or the pieces from which to make them. All the photos I have seen so far (both pre- and post-grouping) have the brake rigging in shadow with none of the details clear to see. Are there any drawings (or other images) around of the brake rigging, so I can complete the model using bits from my scrapbox? Regards, Rob ps I would have posted an "under construction" image, but I'm still a novice here and can't seem to work out how to do this within a "reply". As they clearly have a central V-hanger I would imagine these had wagon style brakes with pushrods. I don't recall seeing any with vacuum hoses (unlikely to be needed on freight trains in the valleys). If I get up into the loft later I'll see if the Dragon Modekls kit has anything to add. I'm fairly sure I recall seeing a picture of one in GWR days with the lamp hole still there, The one in Penrhos' picture does have GWR fitted (?) side lamp irons but I cannot see a tail lamp iron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 27, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2013 Here's my effort, which is made from a Dragon Models kit. I think its terrible, but it is only my joint first etched kit (joint first with a Comet coach kit, which is much easier to build) so feel free to take pity on me! And, the second finger on my left hand hurts where I tried to solder it to the model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2013 I've got some notes somewhere, that state the TVR only used brake vans with the tank locomotives. Moreover, these went 'inside' (behind the locomotive)when descending, or coming down the valley. The last vehicle in the train carried the tail lamp. The idea being that the train is not liable to part when going downgrade. I'd be surprised if the central aperture for the tail lamp was plated over. The photos I have here, show a brake van at Mountain Ash (coupled inside), and a loco & van at Aberdare. The latter is interesting, as it shows the van to have 4 lamp irons. Two are in the centre, located at the aperture and, directly above, on the balustrade rail. The other two are mounted left & right, on the body corner posts. Taff vale working instructions show that 2 red lights are required, top & bottom centre. The 3 red lghts, ( as on a class 9) are required for passenger trains. Just looked a bit further, and found 2 photos at Trehafod, with the brake van at the rear of the train, whilst going down hill. Ho Hum!. I understand the earlier practice died out at the grouping. I'm very interested in these builds. I've got one tucked away on my to-do list. Regards, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28, 2013 Bit more digging. I've just had a look at the Railway Inspectors report for the Hopkinstown Crash (1911). This shows that brake van 6361 was at the rear of the stationery mineral train, and that the following passenger train totally demolished said van. So much for my earlier notes! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well I got up in the loft at the weekend. The T.L.Jones drawing with my kit shows pushrod brakes acting on the wheelsets. No clasp or additional shoes on the outer ends. There are also vertical sand pipes that come down next to the wheels, on the outer sides and are braced from just behind the buffer beam. Hope this helps, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Hello everyone, This project is just about complete, thanks to all the advice shared here. I have fitted simple brake gear, using parts from an old (unmade) Peco Wonderful Wagon chassis. I have left off the sand pipes, which would have foulled the tension lock coupling mounts. I chose also to not "fit" the tail lamp hole and surrounds to the ends. (I am assuming these were closed during maintenance in the early 30s - my chosen modelling period.) I made sand boxes from balsa and hand brake levers from brass rod. The chimney is another offcut of brass rod. The roof was made from card, as this was easier to curve to the correct shape than the polystyrene sheet supplied with the kit. Here are some pre-painting images: I primed the model with automotive grey spray primer, followed by a dark grey spray coat. After these were allowed to dry (overnight), I glazed the windows, applied HMRS lettering, fitted the roof and chimney, then repainted the roof. I chose to give the model "Merthyr" as its home depot, so printed the names onto paper on my home printer. Here is the final result - just awaiting varnishing with Humbrol flat clear: This will now look at home on the tail of a string of PO wagons behind 2620. Thanks again to everyone who helped. Regards, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2013 Great to see the finished model. This makes RMWeb worthwhile. I have a similar 4 mm kit from Model Signal Englineering stashed away somewhere in the UK, pretty well complete. Is this the same kit? I am interested in the reference to Dragon Models. When I last looked they didn't do anything much in 4mm, but if they do I am in the queue - though I may already have scratch built the same vehicles from plastic. I have a couple of kits for the RR 18 ft van not yet made (etched brass and almost beyond my skill level). The instructions cite Derek Mundy as the source but I certainly didn't buy them from him. These come with the correct castings for many of the standard RR vehicles, and some years ago I was able to buy extra sets separately. With them as a starting point scratch building is not too difficult except for the 9 ft 9in wheelbase brake gear. Before anyone starts waiting eagerly for the TVR book from the WRRC it might be an idea to enquire about progress. You might get a few other projects completed first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 RosiesBoss, That looks really neat well done . Must get these coaches finished so I can do mine. By the way an easy way to curve flat syrene plastic to make roofs like these is to wrap the sheet around a suitable can or glass bottle/jar - hold in place with elastic bands - fill can/bottle with boiling water from your kettle. Leave to cool. A nice curve will be set into the plastic. (Don't use very thin glass for this as it can shatter from the heating). Corneliuslundie, As I bought mine a few years ago i cannot confirm what they do now but I did get a price list at the time showing most of the brake vans available in 4mm as well as 7mm scale. I really should have bought some RR ones as I'm actually modelling the Rymney not the TVR . Maybe worth dropping them a line if you are interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 When I last looked they didn't do anything much in 4mm, but if they do I am in the queue Look again, bottom of page Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 in 4mm, but if they do I am in the queue Have a look here and scroll down. The price list confirms what is/isn't available in 4mm/7mm. He does quite a number of oddities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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