Kenton Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I thank TW for his input to this topic (in addition to the article which Andy used to start it, of course) and also to Andy for posting it. Much of it fair comment. On the specific "but might we see some of his work" I can only say search any you should find on this and on previous incarnations of RMWeb. But you will of course find nothing on weathering (I don't believe in it, or at least to the extent that I or most can offer), and I do not post on painting in general (as I am nowhere near competent). But like anyone who attends public exhibitions (upwards of 15-20 a year) and sees many layouts from the 6ft TMD to what might be the best in prototypicaly correct, I can hold an opinion. It requires no qualification, no position of standing in RMWeb or even in BRM. It just so happens that it opposes directly what was presented in the article and much of what has appeared in the topic. Put simply. I'll not be told what to do in the hobby or what gospel I should follow. I don't mind hearing others views and making my mind up on the application with regard to me, but it is my layout(s) and it is all subjective in the hobby. Similarly I only offer my opinion and don't see that it should be adopted by an individual or endorsed as "lore" by a magazine. There are some areas where a rule might apply such as wiring a plug, even having a hot iron soldering, but these are specifics not the general subject matter of what we should or shouldn't have on our layouts. [Ed] that damn editor again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I can hold an opinion. It requires no qualification, no position of standing in RMWeb or even in BRM. It just so happens that it opposes directly what was presented in the article and much of what has appeared in the topic. Put simply. I'll not be told what to do in the hobby or what gospel I should follow. ...and I'm sure that you'll understand why others may choose to trust your opinion to the extent that you can demonstrate expertise. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 ...and I'm sure that you'll understand why others may choose to trust your opinion to the extent that you can demonstrate expertise. Dave Completely - on the specifics. So on the like of the correct signal for a layout claiming to be say GWR, or the colours of the paint to use on the coach of HR stock in 1909. But experience is no qualification for an opinion or mantra on what sort of layout should or should not be built. Just because someone has built a prototypical layout does not give them any more value in their opinion on what type of layout anyone should build. They are of course fully entitled to the opinion that any non-prototypical 6ft TMD is utter rubbish unless it has sound, lights, DCC, and RTP is absent. But that opinion is very much their own personal view carrying the same worth as any man-in-the-street. A layout is just like a painting. I can say I don't like the style or content and would not give it a second look. So some don't like the TMD or the GWR BLT but that doesn't make those who do some sort of outcast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 These replies are certainly firing up some passions amongst members, which is fine. The problem I cant over is - shouldnt we encouraging everyone into the hobby so it can flourish? I can see what Tony is on about - research etc, but some of the comments on here are deeply off-putting to people. I notice the anti-TMD brigade. Well may I comment about a subject close to my heart - Cornish Clay? I could buy a 6ft x 2ft plank later, lay some sidings put a Kernow rail clay dry on it, some portacabins, a lorry, a Bachmann class 66, some CDA's, NACCO polybulks, some Kernow Silver Bullets and hey presto - a cornish clay layout! Maybe I'm being cynical, but it's a similar "out of the box" layout. I wouldnt dream of bursting anyones bubble who put together such a project, but it seems others would. I had a visit from an 10 year old family friend yesterday who proudly runs his Javelin train with his steam train and blue & grey coaches and dreaded set track with Hornby platforms. He could get involved on line soon, seeing what he could aspire to. Would his work be welcomed on here by everyone? It's time people stopped taking chunks out of each other on these forums. This scoffing probably goes on in all circles, from golf clubs to line dancing groups. We all have a similar interest if we model railways of whatever era or gauge. Each to their own I say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Craig, If someone is so easily put off an hobby then it may also say something about their determination/ability to commit. If I wanted to start to play golf etc I wouldn't go to scratch golfers and expect to slow them down just to get a game. That would also have a negative effect on me. Instead, I would seek out the type of opportunities available to newcomers in any activity. If you want members of all abilities 'under one roof' on this site then this type of discussion is inevitable. Regards Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I've spent a long time agonizing over this very topic recently and was happy to find TW's article in BRM. I was quite surprised by the tone taken, as I found it strayed from the normal 'fluffy, happy' copy that is printed in magazines, and seemed more like what I would expect from a forum post (not that there's anything wrong with that) with the sometimes hard-hitting opinions, and it certainly has generated a discussion! as someone who has recently returned to this hobby, I find the length and breadth of it to be fantastic. at one end you have people trying to squeeze a Coronation round radius one track, and at the other you have some people whose models can be confused with the real thing, and it's all good to me. I find the allure of modelling a prototype very attractive, and so I sympathized with many of TW's views, but I still find a lot to like out of some of the most basic layouts. like many, I've watched a lot of YouTube video reviews of products, and various well-subscribed-to layout channels, and one thing that strikes me is the sheer joy some people gain from the latest RTR model, whether a new loco or some ready-to-plonk platform segments. I almost wish one of those people would write a rebuttal article to TW's, not to be antogonistic but because it would help inform the debate, as he has welcomed, and would further showcase all the things this terrific hobby has to offer. I've pretty much decided on my next layout: Bodmin General, as it ticks almost every box I have for what I want out of my layout, of which being a real location is very important. however, Coombe Barton helpfully posted some links to me of the North London Group's P4 layout of the same, and two things occurred to me: that modelling real locations will inevitably lead to comparisons of quality/accuracy, and also that there are really very few locations that many of us can actually aspire to model. the latter would especially be the case if we ALL modelled real locations, as there would be vast duplication of certain places, and the hunt for an original idea would be extremely tough. so I'm glad that most people don't do this. I don't find any problem looking at generic TMDs or BLTs as they are all different (well, most of them!) and I don't see modelling accuracy or quality being relevent as that would be an issue whether the layout is a real place or not. good thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 dreaded set track Judging by the amount in stock in EVERY model shop I have been in, I would guess it outsells everything else by a significant margin. You even see Hornby.Bachmann and Peco setrack even when no other alternatives or 'streamline' is being sold. That must tell us something about the significant majority (?) out there, or do I assume to much? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2013 Judging by the amount in stock in EVERY model shop I have been in, I would guess it outsells everything else by a significant margin. You even see Hornby.Bachmann and Peco setrack even when no other alternatives or 'streamline' is being sold. That must tell us something about the significant majority (?) out there, or do I assume to much? It suggests to me that there is still a healthy interest in our hobby among teen and pre-teen kids, who if they are lucky may be allowed to use the dining table for their very temporary layout. There or the lounge carpet! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Ian, take a look at who is buying it, and its certainly not all for the kids! Anyone in the 'trade' care to comment. My own experience (Beatties ......many years ago) would tend to suggest my assumption is correct, but things might have changed, but somehow I dont think so. Out of my circle of family, friends, and workmates there must be dozens of under 16's amongst their offspring. Everyone knows of my hobby and I dont know of 1 youngster involved or interested in model railways.........or anyone has asked to come and see the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I dont know of 1 youngster involved or interested in model railways.........or anyone has asked to come and see the layout. On the other hand I know of two neighbours boys, under 10s, who have their train sets set up on boards one in a garage, one in a conservatory. Both are the classic set track ovals with a couple of sidings. Scenery limited to RTP, plastic trees and the odd Dapol/Airfic kit (signal box, engine shed) often totally out of context (what context?). Trains are operated at Scalextrix speeds with similar results and things frequently break or fail to work. Fixing couplings, cleaning, putting wheels back in place are frequent requests. They may or may not be the prototype modellers we will admire in the future but at least they are having innocent fun from their hobby which is only a small part of their lives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I had a visit from an 10 year old family friend yesterday who proudly runs his Javelin train with his steam train and blue & grey coaches and dreaded set track with Hornby platforms. He could get involved on line soon, seeing what he could aspire to. Would his work be welcomed on here by everyone? He's ten years old, he sounds like he's interested, he's having fun - result! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Corfe Viaduct on the Swanage Railway makes an attractive model. With the embankment either side it takes up an area of 4 feet x 2 feet in 00 gauge and then there is another 4 foot for sidings. I think you need to have an area of at least 12 feet x 4 feet to make an interesting layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 He's ten years old, he sounds like he's interested, he's having fun - result! Indeed, and if he learns painting, wiring, woodwork and expands his mind reading books or watching DVDs on the subject even more so. Look around the next exhibition or toy fair you're at. Take away the over 50s and you wont be left with many folk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 21, 2013 I tend to take my modelling fairly seriously. My modelling that is, not myself! I am involved in a number of projects, mostly EM, some based on real places and some not. A couple of years ago a friend of mine asked me to help him build a trainset for his grandson for Christmas. It was an oval of set-track, some Hornby points and a few RTP buildings and platforms. And I really enjoyed doing it! To me, the hobby is all about making things, thinking about problems and how to overcome them, having fun and above all, the friends I have made through our shared interest. There is no harm whatsover in expressing any personal lack of appreciation for any type of layout/model. It only gets to be a problem when you try to dictate to others what they should do. My earlier comment about "identikit" layouts wasn't aimed at the modellers who built them. It was more about exhibition organisers who invite multiples of the same basic layout to their show. If their had been 6 excellent (but similar) Scale 7 GCR pregrouping layouts all looking alike I would have mentioned that too! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2013 Ian, take a look at who is buying it, and its certainly not all for the kids! Anyone in the 'trade' care to comment. My own experience (Beatties ......many years ago) would tend to suggest my assumption is correct, but things might have changed, but somehow I dont think so. Out of my circle of family, friends, and workmates there must be dozens of under 16's amongst their offspring. Everyone knows of my hobby and I dont know of 1 youngster involved or interested in model railways.........or anyone has asked to come and see the layout. There are members of our model railway club who have built or are building model railways using set track pointwork, Streamline and the like as well as hand laid track, not necessarily on the same layout I hasten to add! But I would suggest that there is a large number of railway modellers, who are not members of clubs, societies or even RMWeb, and who still have model railways on the traditional 6 x 4 or 8 x 4 boards. they buy what they want and run what they want, when they want to. As for the lad that runs all sorts on his railway, if that is what he enjoys doing then let him continue. If he wants to join RM Web then let him! As for the possible 'flaming' he might receive from those more fundamentalist modellers, perhaps the moderating team could come up with a 'junior member' type title which sits above the individual avatar. Addressing Ratty's final comment: I suppose it is down to where you live in relation to youngsters who may be interested. In contrast to his findings, our club has come to the decision that the increasing number of junior members warrants them getting their own railway. And we've provided boards, stock and some cash to get them started. I've spent ages on the SRS site looking for the signalling diagrams for Pen Tor Road, but it does not appear. I've seen it at Pendon, so it must be a real location. Regards Richard Edit for punc:tu,a;;tion! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I think there are quite a few out there enjoying their Trakmat layouts and having great fun whilst doing so, regardless of age. Thats what its all about, whether its a Trakmat or a fully detailed model of whatever station, shed, bank or whatever. You have to enjoy it, labour of love perhaps but enjoy. Otherwise whats the point? ps I should have also added it is a GOOD article by TW and well worth reading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium southern42 Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 21, 2013 He's ten years old, he sounds like he's interested, he's having fun - result! At Barrow Hill last year, we stood to one side for quite some time while one young lad discussed with Paul Lunn how he could get more out of his 6ft x 4ft oval layout. If you've seen Paul Lunn in action, you'll have an idea how it went. The boy went away with a 'signed' copy of the track plan with all its possibilities and a promising modelling future - Prototypical? That may well depend on the encouragement, enthusiasm and example of others. As to modelling the prototype - I'm at the planning stage, inspired by the advice 'look at the prototype rather than the model of the prototype.' I look at the model, prototype or otherwise, to see how to do the modelling which will be a combination of RTR/RTP, modification, cut and shut, and kit/scratchbuilding based on time available, skills, ability, motivation, OH etc etc and what I 'fall in love' with out there in the big wide world of railway modelling. Below is a link to one of my favourite pics of the prototype - MPD 81C in 1965 - a 'foreigner' on GWR tracks...! http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/7379400050/ If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't even have dreamt of modelling it. (Fibber!) The Flying Scotsman was my first 00 gauge locomotive (Christmas gift a few years ago, so it's quite special). So, have I been bitten by the prototype bug? Will I model it? We'll have to wait and see but that part of the footbridge in the background will be an identifying feature in my model. At least, that's the intention. And, if I had the room for it, my layout would be full size and called Southall Shed (SHL). More room(s!) and it could be 81C or even Southall Railway Centre stabling mainline steam locos and diesels with a full rake of a dozen or so coaches to drag up the incline: However, I'll be content with a 'Honey! I've shrunk the kids shed' version adapted to run all three eras (but not all at once!). PS What about a (scientific) list of Pros and Cons of modelling the prototype? Don't want to go there? Ah! Well....as you were, then....and I'll pop in to view comments form time to time but I'd be interested if you do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2013 At Barrow Hill last year, we stood to one side for quite some time while one young lad discussed with Paul Lunn how he could get more out of his 6ft x 4ft oval layout. If you've seen Paul Lunn in action, you'll have an idea how it went. The boy went away with a 'signed' copy of the track plan with all its possibilities and a promising modelling future - Prototypical? That may well depend on the encouragement, enthusiasm and example of others. As to modelling the prototype - I'm at the planning stage, inspired by the advice 'look at the prototype rather than the model of the prototype.' I look at the model, prototype or otherwise, to see how to do the modelling which will be a combination of RTR/RTP, modification, cut and shut, and kit/scratchbuilding based on time available, skills, ability, motivation, OH etc etc and what I 'fall in love' with out there in the big wide world of railway modelling. Below is a link to one of my favourite pics of the prototype - MPD 81C in 1965 - a 'foreigner' on GWR tracks...! http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/7379400050/ If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't even have dreamt of modelling it. (Fibber!) The Flying Scotsman was my first 00 gauge locomotive (Christmas gift a few years ago, so it's quite special). So, have I been bitten by the prototype bug? Will I model it? We'll have to wait and see but that part of the footbridge in the background will be an identifying feature in my model. At least, that's the intention. And, if I had the room for it, my layout would be full size and called Southall Shed (SHL). More room(s!) and it could be 81C or even Southall Railway Centre stabling mainline steam locos and diesels with a full rake of a dozen or so coaches to drag up the incline: However, I'll be content with a 'Honey! I've shrunk the kids shed' version adapted to run all three eras (but not all at once!). PS What about a (scientific) list of Pros and Cons of modelling the prototype? Don't want to go there? Ah! Well....as you were, then....and I'll pop in to view comments form time to time but I'd be interested if you do. It's a good job you're modelling it in an earlier form Polly otherwise you'd be copying my track layout - which is very nicely caught in the clip you've posted above Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Here are six pictures (three prototype, three model) which, I hope, sum up what I'm trying to say with regard to modelling a prototype. First of all, apologies for the less-than-perfect nature of two of the prototype shots (they're scanned from poor prints), but they do show what the real thing was like at the time depicted by the model (1958). Secondly, though there's still so much more to be done with regard to the layout, I hope the model pictures capture the 'flavour' of what I'm trying to recreate on Little Bytham. Thirdly, despite all my efforts it's impossible to exactly replicate the same position for the photographs, so my apologies for that. My final point is that by modelling a prototype it allows you to attempt to recreate actual scenes that 'really' existed - scenes like these. Thus, the relative positions of everything are there for you - track layout, buildings, signals, etc, etc. - and I don't think it stifles creativity. Surely building 'anything', even if it's prototype-based is creative. And, I've seen some fictitious 'creations' that are utterly absurd - railways that could never have been run when built by their 'creators'. That said, I've also photographed some fantastic 'might-have-beens', where prototype practice has been followed. In hindsight, perhaps I should have emphasised that latter point more in the original article. But, my position is only my opinion, and I hope I would never 'dictate' to anyone how to go about his/her railway modelling. At least these pictures show that I've actually 'made' (with great help from others) something. I'll let others decide on the merits, or otherwise, of that. Tony apologises for the quality of the prototype images which are scans from the photographs of amateurs; irrespective of that it's heartening to see someone was there at the right time to capture information which is useful some 50+ years into the future. On a parallel and coincidental note Roy Jackson's 'Retford', of which there can be few grander instances of a scale model of a prototype, features in the next issue of BRM and I'd had a play over the weekend blending model with reality with one of the angles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Stuck for words Andy - the trackwork in Tony's second model photo is nigh on perfect. That Retford comparison is also beyond criticism, state of the art modelling in both cases. Of course we can't all do that - but we can aspire to, and improve what we do as a consequence. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 21, 2013 Tony apologises for the quality of the prototype images which are scans from the photographs of amateurs; irrespective of that it's heartening to see someone was there at the right time to capture information which is useful some 50+ years into the future. On a parallel and coincidental note Roy Jackson's 'Retford' of which there can be few better instances of a scale model of a prototype features in the next issue of BRM and I'd had a play over the weekend blending model with reality with one of the angles. 6A.jpg 6test.jpg I wasn't too keen on the idea of too much photoshopping of backgrounds etc. when the photos were being taken but I can admit I was wrong on that quite happily. Hats off Andy, that really gives an idea of what it might loo like when we find some mug/volunteer/artist to do the other 70ft! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 that really gives an idea of what it might look like when we find some mug/volunteer/artist to do the other 70ft! That's nothing compared to the mug victim who'll have to string all the telegraph poles together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Ooh Can I play Heres one i did last year by D210bob and reproduced here with permission. I dont have 50050 so 009 is standing in and I cant get my camera as low down as the picture but I am quite pleased with how it came out. Found a nice pic of a peak under the roof on Flickr and decided to recreate it in the shed! The original pic is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/7538960416/ TBH though being able to recreate a prototype shot is nice but it misses the main joy of modelling a real place. That being it takes viewers who knew it back there. In the few occasions I have exhibited New Street in its embrionic form, i have without exception came back with loads of stories from visitors of fond memories they have of their real life experiences there (yes even THAT station). This to me is the big thing you get from modelling a real location that you cant get from a fictional one, no matter how good it is. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2013 Although not in the same league as previous postings here's my 'flavour' of what I'm trying to model on mine. Here's 4081 ' Warwick Castle' on a up express with my 5011 'Tintagel Castle' doing the same.Not quite the same angle but hey ho. Copyright Ben Brooksbank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete55 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 That's nothing compared to the mug victim who'll have to string all the telegraph poles together. Think I'd rather string the telegraph poles than do the point rodding...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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