'Hybrid' 2BIL/HAL combinations?

[Gwiwer]

The final pair of 4_Lav units, 2954/5 had Hal motor coaches.

[talisman56]

All of the vehicles of 2954/55 were 'HAL'ed versions of the original vehicle designs.

[SRman]

There was another (older) 4 LAV, 2926, which had a HAL DMBT/DMBS replacing the original after an accident in October 1947 at South Croydon. It was then involved in another accident and had one of the trailers replaced with a Bulleid augmentation SUB type. I think I read somewhere that the trailer lost was the lavatory one, making 2926 technically a 4 NOL!

[Gwiwer]

There was another (older) 4 LAV, 2926, which had a HAL DMBT/DMBS replacing the original after an accident in October 1947 at South Croydon. It was then involved in another accident and had one of the trailers replaced with a Bulleid augmentation SUB type. I think I read somewhere that the trailer lost was the lavatory one, making 2926 technically a 4 NOL!

 

 

Coach 10511 of unit 2926 was lost in the accident at South Croydon on 24^th October 1947 and was replaced by 10764 from disbanded 2 Hal unit 2646.

Coach 12001 of unit 2926 was badly damaged in a collision at Brighton on 19^th September 1961 and was subsequently cut up.  When the rest of the unit was repaired, 1945-vintage ten-compartment trailer third (second class by this time) no 10359 from withdrawn 1925 Sub. unit no 4338, was inserted and the unit became in effect, though not officially, 4 Nol when it returned to traffic in October 1962.  As part of this rehabilitation the former first class compartments of 11509 were reinstated.  Having acquired a Hal motor coach in 1947 following the South Croydon collision this unit had a decidedly eclectic appearance.

 

The final pair, 2954/5, were indeed (having refreshed my memory) new-build units to the Hal / Sheba Sub style but the motor coaches had only one periscope while the Hal ones had two.  Presumably with two brakes in the 4-Lav unit it was felt that this arrangement - having one periscope facing each way - was adequate.  Bill and Hal units required two periscopes in the motor coaches because they only had one brake in a unit from which the guard would be required to sight signals no matter which way the unit was travelling.

[trevor7598]

Mention of the two HAL style 4 LAV's reminds me that these two units [ 2954/55] ended their days on the 

south western division I saw both of them , and traveled in one of them from Farncombe to Guildford. 

Upon withdrawal the two trailers from both units were stored at Micheldever for some years.

The motors became de-icing units for the Bournemouth line.

 

Another reformation worth a mention concerns 2 BIL 2105 which collided with a Southdown bus on a level

crossing,the driving trailer was badly fire damaged, but the motor coach was re-used in a 4 LAV. I can't recall

 which one.

[talisman56]

Mention of the two HAL style 4 LAV's reminds me that these two units [ 2954/55] ended their days on the 

south western division I saw both of them , and traveled in one of them from Farncombe to Guildford. 

Upon withdrawal the two trailers from both units were stored at Micheldever for some years.

The motors became de-icing units for the Bournemouth line.

 

Another reformation worth a mention concerns 2 BIL 2105 which collided with a Southdown bus on a level

crossing,the driving trailer was badly fire damaged, but the motor coach was re-used in a 4 LAV. I can't recall

 which one.

 

The DMBS of 2105 was reused in 4Lav 2943 after an incident in January 1967, according to the 2Bil history in 'The Southern Way' Issue 27.

Brown records that the 2Bil vehicle replaced 10545 in 4Lav 2943

[Gwiwer]

The collision was in fog at Roundstone level crossing near Angmering and wrote off the bus as well.  As an incidental it was that incident which meant that the large fleet of "Queen Mary" PD3s operated by Southdown was never in service complete.  949 was written off before 315 was delivered.

[trevor7598]

HI All,

Thanks for the additional info. on 2BIL 2105,

if anyone is interested there is a clip on You Tube,poor quality cine though, of two 4LAVs,I think at Copyhold

and the leading coach is a 2BIL motor coach, Tap in 'Southern electric trains' you should then find it ,

BUT as i said the quality is poor.

[talisman56]

HI All,

Thanks for the additional info. on 2BIL 2105,

if anyone is interested there is a clip on You Tube,poor quality cine though, of two 4LAVs,I think at Copyhold

and the leading coach is a 2BIL motor coach, Tap in 'Southern electric trains' you should then find it ,

BUT as i said the quality is poor.

 

Can you be a bit more specific as to which clip and at what time? (provide a link?) I've seen many of the clips on UT but do not recall such a formation.

[Re6/6]

.....but not that I can recall or trace Hal of any kind with a Bil DTCL

 

I've come across one in Brown Vol 2  page 123. It shows the unique 'mix-&-not-quite match' Hybrid HAL unit # 2611 with a BIL DTC + A HAL DMBT and the other way round in Williams Southern Electric Album page 27. It shows the reverse formation, # 2088 with a 1939 HAL DTC + BIL DMBT.

 

Please forgive me if these have been mentioned already! Much to digest here. Bit of a minefield really.

[robertcwp]

HI All,

Thanks for the additional info. on 2BIL 2105,

if anyone is interested there is a clip on You Tube,poor quality cine though, of two 4LAVs,I think at Copyhold

and the leading coach is a 2BIL motor coach, Tap in 'Southern electric trains' you should then find it ,

BUT as i said the quality is poor.

I think it's this one: https://youtu.be/4bXSjrGwxFw

 

I agree the leading MBS in the 8-car is from a BIL and this formation is mentioned in Brown vol 2. 

[robertcwp]

I think it's this one: https://youtu.be/4bXSjrGwxFw

 

I agree the leading MBS in the 8-car is from a BIL and this formation is mentioned in Brown vol 2.

 

2943 was I believe the unit in question.It gained the MBS from 2105 in November 1966.

[SRman]

In the recent Locomotives Illustrated on Southern Design EMUs, there is a picture of 2 BIL 2028 in blue with a 'Tin' HAL driving trailer, so this must have been a later substitution, as all the info I have says it had a pre-war style HAL DTC.

[Gwiwer]

2028 had tin HAL diag. 2705 trailer S12854S not a standard Hal one.

 

From "Blood & Custard" which is generally regarded as accurate:

 

MBS 10594 damaged by fire at Waterloo Oct-66 and DTC 12051 to 2 HAL 2626 Jan-67.  Unit out of use until 10594 repaired and DTC 12051 replaced by "all-steel" 2 HAL DTC 12854 (ex 2653) from cFeb-69.

 

http://www.bloodandcustard.com/BIL001.html

 

In this form it ran until 1st May 1971 when it was stored at Lancing Sidings before being moved to Feltham for scrapping on 15th September 1971 by way of stopping at Selhurst and a short stay at Micheldever sidings.

 

I recall travelling on 2028 in this form between 1970-71 as it was a regular on the Sussex coast at the time and was one of those which stood out from the crowd.  

 

Cross-referencing on the same site to confirm details of the exchanges with 2626 and 2653 shows that 2028 was paired with standards HAL DTC 12211 from 2626 but both were damaged (12211 as the result of a collision with steam locomotive 82023 at Vauxhall) and stored at Micheldever.  They never ran as a unit in this form.  The pairing was a "paper" unit only but existed for a year or two before repairs were made.

[Re6/6]

l have acquired a DTC trailer from a Hornby 2-HAL set and would ask advice on what would be an appropriate DMBT. l assume that a BIL one would be the obvious choice but were 'Tin' DMBTs ever paired with pre-war HAL trailers? The answer is probably in the thread somewhere but please bear with me as l suffer from confusement in my sunset years!

 

The modelling periods would range from the early 50s through to the late 60s

 

Thanks in advance.

[SRman]

l have acquired a DTC trailer from a Hornby 2-HAL set and would ask advice on what would be an appropriate DMBT. l assume that a BIL one would be the obvious choice but were 'Tin' DMBTs ever paired with pre-war HAL trailers? The answer is probably in the thread somewhere but please bear with me as l suffer from confusement in my sunset years!

 

The modelling periods would range from the early 50s through to the late 60s

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I don't believe any 'tin' DMBT (or DMBS) vehicles were ever paired with earlier driving trailers. The reverse was true, with several 'tin' HAL style DTC cars built to replace war- or accident-damaged vehicles in BILs and HALs. To the best of my knowledge, all of the 'tin' HALS 2693 - 2699 remained intact until they were withdrawn and scrapped. Unit 2700 doesn't count either as it had a 4-SUB DMBT/DMBS.

[Re6/6]

Thanks for that info. It looks like l'll stick to a BIL DMBT(DMBS) which will make an interesting model,l think.

[SRman]

The Blood & Custard site has a lot of useful information, if you wish to wade through all the detail: [/url]http://www.bloodandcustard.com/HAL001.html[/url]

[Gwiwer]

 

 

all of the 'tin' HALS 2693 - 2699 remained intact until they were withdrawn and scrapped.

Correct.

 

None of the above ran with any other vehicle.  But as you say some single vehicles were built to the same design to replace war losses and which were paired with "standard" Bil or Hal DMBT/S coaches.  Not that they themselves were necessarily standard of course having regard to differences between builds.

 

SR and BR Southern practice was always to assign a unit number applicable to the motor coach.  If the driving trailer was damaged and replaced by a different type (Hal for Bil for example) the unit remained a 2Bil; if the motor coach were damaged the trailer might be stored and paired later with an undamaged motor coach from a different unit which would then become, for example a 2Hal but with a Bil trailer.

[robertcwp]

At least one motor coach from a 'tin' Hal finished its days in a 4 Sub.

[SRman]

At least one motor coach from a 'tin' Hal finished its days in a 4 Sub.

 

If that was the motor coach from 2700, it was already a 4 SUB design, which initially had only one periscope, so even as a 2 HAL it had to be kept on services where it was in multiple with other units. It was later fitted with a second periscope, and later still, 2700 was disbanded and the DMBS was incorporated into a 4 SUB unit.

[robertcwp]

If that was the motor coach from 2700, it was already a 4 SUB design, which initially had only one periscope, so even as a 2 HAL it had to be kept on services where it was in multiple with other units. It was later fitted with a second periscope, and later still, 2700 was disbanded and the DMBS was incorporated into a 4 SUB unit.

No, it was a 7-compartment one from one of the 2693-9 series - it went to 4625 and there is a photo of it in the SEG book The 4 Sub Story.

[bécasse]

If that was the motor coach from 2700, it was already a 4 SUB design, which initially had only one periscope, so even as a 2 HAL it had to be kept on services where it was in multiple with other units. It was later fitted with a second periscope, and later still, 2700 was disbanded and the DMBS was incorporated into a 4 SUB unit.

 

It wasn't just a 4 SUB design, it had actually originally run in 4 SUB unit 4590 which might be described as the original, but 4 car, tadpole unit having two Bulleid-style cars and two ex-LBSCR ones.