1928 Model Engineer Exhibition - Silver Medal Winners

[Phil Copleston]

I've been given some drawings by J.J. Langridge which I've scanned in and uploaded here:

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p555/MarkFielder/JJ%20Langridge%20Drawings/

 

These are interesting as they show some more light on the design of the models.

 

Mark,

 

These drawings are indeed interesting. Not just as an insight into the design and concept behind these historic models, but also as part of a supporting 'documentary archive'. Thanks for scanning and posting. I wonder what else is known about Mr Langridge and his pioneering 2mm models. 

 

Did the EMU in one of the drawings ever get built?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Phil Copleston

[Pixie]

Did the EMU in one of the drawings ever get built?

If it did, I'd love to see it posed on Frankland. Just, y'know, for posterity.

 

Pix

Edited February 4, 2013 by Pixie

[2mmMark]

I don't think the EMU was ever built. It would have been a bit out of place as the layout was based on Swanage.

 

(says he with all sorts of inappropriate projects on the go!)

Edited February 5, 2013 by 2mmMark

[bécasse]

Yesterday I posted this entry under a different topic where there had been some discussion about the late P D Hancock's L&B-inspired loco (in OO9) "Alistair" whose chassis was built for him by Cherry's and the body by H B Whall:

 

"Alistair's body wasn't the only thing Whall built for PDH because he also had a 2mm scale model of a LSWR C14 0-4-0 rail motor tank. I believe this was one of three built by Whall, one for himself, one for Gilbert Szlumper (who had been General Manager of the Southern Railway), and finally one for PDH. Szlumper's ran on a 2mm LSWR layout (in a bedroom setting!) that appeared at a couple of Model Railway Club exhibitions at Central Hall, Westminster, in the mid-1950s - they made Alistair look large!

 

The 2mm layout itself is a bit of a mystery. The exhibition guides are silent in respect of its ownership (not particularly unusual then) but the contemporary model press suggested that it was the work of a "Major Provo", a name totally unfamiliar to me even though I became a MRC member only a few years later, and indeed there is only one reference, miss-spelt, to that name in the surviving MRC records. It wasn't unusual at that period for people with prominent jobs to adopt a pseudonym when pursuing a hobby and I have often wondered whether the layout was, in fact, Szlumper's as well as the loco."

 

Following which Mark made this post:

 

"I remember the treasurer of the MRC speaking very highly of "Major Provo's" 2mm layout back in the 1980s. It does seem otherwise very elusive.

 

P.D. Hancock's 2mm Gleish Valley Railroad featured in the Railway Modeller for January 1953 & February 1954 with borrowed rolling stock and the C14 itself was described in August 1960.

 

Earlier this year, I had the chance to photograph some early 2mm models by J.J. (Jack) Langridge, one of which was an LSWR C14 from the mid 1920s.

http://www.rmweb.co....-medal-winners/

 

I'm told that Jack Langridge built 2mm models on sub-contract from H.B. Whall so it's possible that the Langridge C14 might be a predecessor of the others. The construction is certainly very similar to the loco described in the August 1960 article. Even with the intervening period, the technology hadn't progressed greatly so a 1950s built C14 would be very likely to be similar to a 1920s built version, scratch built wheels, motor, gears etc. The only departure I can see are spoked wheels on the early loco and disc wheels on the Hancock version. Time/price considerations maybe?

 

There was a cohort of pioneer 2mm modellers in the SW London area (Whall - Kew, Langridge - Isleworth & A.R. Walkley - Wimbledon) and they were certainly in touch with each other. With Cherry's being based in Richmond, perhaps that's another connection."

 

Some years ago Chris Leigh published a photo of Szlumper's C14 in Model Rail, and after some discussion with Chris, I attempted to find out more, since the last time I had seen the loco was when it ran (with a LSWR "gate" set) on the "Major Provo" layout at Central Hall back in the mid-1950s when I was a mere lad of about 10 years of age. The layout probably made a greater impression on me than any that I saw in those halcyon days and I have always been puzzled that it just seemed to disappear.

 

I started by trawling exhibition guides and contemporary magazines which had two results, the name Major Provo as the exhibitor of the layout and a list of names of people actively pursuing 2mm scale in the 1950s. Having joined the MRC in 1960, I knew most of these names but one major surprise was to discover that Sid (SB) Dent, whom I knew as a very fine modeller of the Southern in O gauge, had been very active in 2mm in the early 1950s. (This information also came as a surprise to Alan Blackburn who had known Sid well several years before I first met him.) 

 

Cyril Freezer was still alive then and thought that he vaguely remembered Major Provo but couldn't provide any further information (and, of course, he had already moved to Seaton at the time so wasn't an active MRC member apart from the Central Hall show and the Birmingham meeting). He also suggested that PDH was unlikely to be able to help even though he had owned one of the Whall C14s, so I didn't pursue that line of enquiry. Tim Watson thought that the layout concerned might have been Langridge's, but I thought that unlikely and the photo of Langridge's own C14 and the imparted knowledge that Langridge's own layout was based on Swanage has served to strengthen that opinion. The only conclusion that I could come to, based on the known ownership of the C14, was that the layout might well have also belonged to Szlumper. It has to be remembered that the Model Railway Club then had some "establishment" figures as members, both from within the railway industry and without, and that they tended to "hide their lights under a bushel". In those days the MRC met in one of the arches under Waterloo station and it might well have been Szlumper who "facilitated" that arrangement.

Edited November 4, 2013 by bécasse

[John lewsey]

These two models are very nice indeed I particularly like the Adams Radial tank it has nice detail about it lovely

John

[2mmMark]

Yesterday I posted this entry under a different topic where there had been some discussion about the late P D Hancock's L&B-inspired loco (in OO9) "Alistair" whose chassis was built for him by Cherry's and the body by H B Whall:

 

"Alistair's body wasn't the only thing Whall built for PDH because he also had a 2mm scale model of a LSWR C14 0-4-0 rail motor tank. I believe this was one of three built by Whall, one for himself, one for Gilbert Szlumper (who had been General Manager of the Southern Railway), and finally one for PDH. Szlumper's ran on a 2mm LSWR layout (in a bedroom setting!) that appeared at a couple of Model Railway Club exhibitions at Central Hall, Westminster, in the mid-1950s - they made Alistair look large!

 

The 2mm layout itself is a bit of a mystery. The exhibition guides are silent in respect of its ownership (not particularly unusual then) but the contemporary model press suggested that it was the work of a "Major Provo", a name totally unfamiliar to me even though I became a MRC member only a few years later, and indeed there is only one reference, miss-spelt, to that name in the surviving MRC records. It wasn't unusual at that period for people with prominent jobs to adopt a pseudonym when pursuing a hobby and I have often wondered whether the layout was, in fact, Szlumper's as well as the loco."

 

Following which Mark made this post:

 

"I remember the treasurer of the MRC speaking very highly of "Major Provo's" 2mm layout back in the 1980s. It does seem otherwise very elusive.

 

P.D. Hancock's 2mm Gleish Valley Railroad featured in the Railway Modeller for January 1953 & February 1954 with borrowed rolling stock and the C14 itself was described in August 1960.

 

Earlier this year, I had the chance to photograph some early 2mm models by J.J. (Jack) Langridge, one of which was an LSWR C14 from the mid 1920s.

http://www.rmweb.co....-medal-winners/

 

I'm told that Jack Langridge built 2mm models on sub-contract from H.B. Whall so it's possible that the Langridge C14 might be a predecessor of the others. The construction is certainly very similar to the loco described in the August 1960 article. Even with the intervening period, the technology hadn't progressed greatly so a 1950s built C14 would be very likely to be similar to a 1920s built version, scratch built wheels, motor, gears etc. The only departure I can see are spoked wheels on the early loco and disc wheels on the Hancock version. Time/price considerations maybe?

 

There was a cohort of pioneer 2mm modellers in the SW London area (Whall - Kew, Langridge - Isleworth & A.R. Walkley - Wimbledon) and they were certainly in touch with each other. With Cherry's being based in Richmond, perhaps that's another connection."

 

Some years ago Chris Leigh published a photo of Szlumper's C14 in Model Rail, and after some discussion with Chris, I attempted to find out more, since the last time I had seen the loco was when it ran (with a LSWR "gate" set) on the "Major Provo" layout at Central Hall back in the mid-1950s when I was a mere lad of about 10 years of age. The layout probably made a greater impression on me than any that I saw in those halcyon days and I have always been puzzled that it just seemed to disappear.

 

I started by trawling exhibition guides and contemporary magazines which had two results, the name Major Provo as the exhibitor of the layout and a list of names of people actively pursuing 2mm scale in the 1950s. Having joined the MRC in 1960, I knew most of this names but one major surprise was to discover that Sid (SB) Dent, whom I knew as a very fine modeller of the Southern in O gauge, had been very active in 2mm in the early 1950s. (This information also came as a surprise to Alan Blackburn who had known Sid well several years before I first met him.) 

 

Cyril Freezer was still alive then and thought that he vaguely remembered Major Provo but couldn't provide any further information (and, of course, he had already moved to Seaton at the time so wasn't an active MRC member apart from the Central Hall show and the Birmingham meeting). He also suggested that PDH was unlikely to be able to help even though he had owned one of the Whall C14s, so I didn't pursue that line of enquiry. Tim Watson thought that the layout concerned might have been Langridge's, but I thought that unlikely and the photo of Langridge's own C14 and the imparted knowledge that Langridge's own layout was based on Swanage has served to strengthen that opinion. The only conclusion that I could come to, based on the known ownership of the C14, was that the layout might well have also belonged to Szlumper. It has to be remembered that the Model Railway Club then had some "establishment" figures as members, both from within the railway industry and without, and that they tended to "hide their lights under a bushel". In those days the MRC met in one of the arches under Waterloo station and it might well have been Szlumper who "facilitated" that arrangement.

 

From my discussions with the executor of the estate which contained the Langridge models, it appears that the "Swanhaven" layout was built into a very substantial piece of furniture which ultimately proved too big to move. Hence the layout was broken up but quite few buildings were saved.  This means it's unlikely to have been at any exhibitions.

 

Also amongst the models I shot was an LSWR Gate set. I wouldn't mind betting that there was a fairly wide interchange of stock in the period as there will not have been large numbers of working 2mm models available.

 

Here are the photos I took:

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p555/MarkFielder/JJ%20Langridge%20Locomotives/

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p555/MarkFielder/JJ%20Langridge%20Coaches/

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p555/MarkFielder/JJ%20Langridge%20Buildings/

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p555/MarkFielder/JJ%20Langridge%20Wagons/

 

Mark

[dunwurken]

Today I posted the undernoted entry in the topic where there has been some discussion regarding P D Hancock's Gleish Valley Railroad.  Havng noted that the discussion regarding the 2mm Whall locos had also moved over to this topic I am duplicating the entry here.

 

"I am told that the Gleish Valley Railroad, or at least part of it, survived in P D Hancock's loft but whether it was disposed of by PDH himself in later life or whether it was bequethed in his will to a beneficiary I do not know.  I have also been told that PDH may have had two other 2mm Whall built locos in addition to the C14.  If so whereabouts unknown, at least to me.   Malcolm"

To explain my interest I am a member of the Edinburgh & Lothians MRC and am custodian of the P D Hancock artefacts which have been placed in the care of the club. The primary interest is PD Hancock's pioneering work, particularily 4mm narrow and standard gauge, however the club collection includes books, papers, photographs and some of the 7mm items from the later version of the Craig and Mertonford. The 2mm C14 was in P D Hancock's possession up to the time he went into a nursing home and I would be interested to learn of its current whereabouts.

 

Malcolm

[bécasse]

I have posted below two entries from the 1955 MRC Easter Exhibition Guide showing firstly the guide entry for the 2mm ("OOO") layout on Stand 18, and secondly part of the Hall Plan which gives some idea of the overall shape of the layout (Stand 18). I believe that the layout may have appeared again in 1956 but I don't have a Guide from that year (sold out before we arrived Saturday afternoon!).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bécasse]

It took a few hours for the penny to drop. The name "Losechester" almost certainly suggests that the model was inspired by Winchester station on the LSWR main line to Southampton. I can't remember now how good a copy it might have been although it was double track. I have vague recollections that there might have been a large train turntable at one end, however I think that such a turntable has featured on more than one 2mm FS layout and it is quite possible that my memory is at fault after nearly 60 years.

 

It seems very likely that the LSWR gate set that I remember seeing was Langridge's, and probably most or all of his stock was borrowed for the show. Models were much less reliable then, and the show was open to the public for over 50 hours which would be a punishing experience for any layout today, so it was always desirable to start of with far more stock, and particularly locos, than the operating scope of a layout might seem to require.

 

It does seem amazing that this layout just disappeared from the radar.

[rockershovel]

Those really are craftsmanship! 

[rockershovel]

On 04/02/2013 at 00:05, 2mmMark said:

I've been given some drawings by J.J. Langridge which I've scanned in and uploaded here:

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p555/MarkFielder/JJ%20Langridge%20Drawings/

 

These are interesting as they show some more light on the design of the models.

 

Mark

 

Could these be Reposted, in another form (not photobucket)? 

[Pixie]

Not quite the right thread but does anyone recognise these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184443254323?

 

If they are indeed ‘N gauge’, they look relatively vintage and finescale.

 

Cheers,

Steve

Edited September 23, 2020 by Pixie

[Nearholmer]

This thread is fascinating to anyone who is interesting in the "Wimbledon School" in the 19202-30s.

 

Was Lord Brabazon of Tara an MRC member?

 

I ask, because he was very definitely a model railway fan, and would have had the connection with Szlumper.

[laurenceb]

On 22/01/2013 at 09:35, Joseph_Pestell said:

Bit mean - only getting a Silver!

At the time the MEE didnt have a gold medal, so silver was better than it seems

[bécasse]

12 hours ago, Pixie said:

Not quite the right thread but does anyone recognise these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184443254323?

 

If they are indeed ‘N gauge’, they look relatively vintage and finescale.

 

Cheers,

Steve

I wonder if they might be Sid Dent's work, he was certainly working in 2mm scale in the early 1950s and was, through and through, a Southern man having once worked at Ashford Works - where he purloined sufficient genuine SR green paint to ensure that all the models that he (and a few friends) made during the rest of his lifetime were an authentic  colour. By the time I knew him ten years later he was a 7mm modeller and it came as quite a surprise to me (and to the late Alan Blackburn who knew him even better) to discover that he had worked in 2mm scale, but his models were of sufficient quality to get a mention in the Model Railway News' write-up of the MRC's Easter show at Central Hall so they must have been good.

[bécasse]

On 04/02/2013 at 01:33, Phil Copleston said:

 

Mark,

 

These drawings are indeed interesting. Not just as an insight into the design and concept behind these historic models, but also as part of a supporting 'documentary archive'. Thanks for scanning and posting. I wonder what else is known about Mr Langridge and his pioneering 2mm models. 

 

Did the EMU in one of the drawings ever get built?

The EMU drawing was for one of the flat-fronted sets built new for the Southern in 1925 and intended for use on the newly electrified ex-SEC suburban network. That rang a vague bell in the deeper recesses of my memory and I suspect that I may have seen the resultant model when I was but a lad, probably on the Southern static models stand at MRC Easter show at Central Hall in the mid-1950s (I went each year from 1954). I think that one of the Gauge 1 lads had a similar, but distinctly larger of course, model and that made it stick in my mind - I would have been familiar with the (augmented) prototype.

[justin1985]

On 08/11/2013 at 11:15, bécasse said:

I have posted below two entries from the 1955 MRC Easter Exhibition Guide showing firstly the guide entry for the 2mm ("OOO") layout on Stand 18, and secondly part of the Hall Plan which gives some idea of the overall shape of the layout (Stand 18). I believe that the layout may have appeared again in 1956 but I don't have a Guide from that year (sold out before we arrived Saturday afternoon!).

 

As well as the models being fascinating, I'm finding this exhibition programme fascinating as well!

 

The graphic design here is amazing - the bold colour and subtle use of Gill Sans type font makes it a thing of beauty to my eye, and it must have looked very cutting edge and fashionable for its day. I even like the diagonal arrangement of the stands - much more interesting than the plain rows we're used to today.

 

I guess back then, there was little alternative than leaving graphic design to professionals, as there simply weren't the means to do it yourself. Or did the MRC have a design guru amongst its midst at that time?

 

Are the place names, "Manchester" etc, clubs attending with layouts, or showcases of models etc? Its interesting to see the NMRA there - I hadn't imagined there would have been much interest in American modelling so early on!

 

J

[Nearholmer]

Ahern and Beal were among the founders of the ‘British Chapter’ I think, and their interest was as much importing US techniques and materials as US trains per se. The IS was way ahead with small motors usable by 4mm/ft people in the 1930s for instance.

[Adam88]

19 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

This thread is fascinating to anyone who is interesting in the "Wimbledon School" in the 19202-30s.

 

Was Lord Brabazon of Tara an MRC member?

 

I ask, because he was very definitely a model railway fan, and would have had the connection with Szlumper.

 

Well that sent me looking for my copy of his autobiography "The Brabazon Story", Heinemann 1956, which does mention his interest in the hobby when discussing a patent:

 

Quote

I had always been a very enthusiastic model-railway expert, and when I thought over this problem I noticed that when a train rounds a curve where the centrifugal force is more than compensated by the banking the train runs smoothly because the flange of the wheel is up against the rail...

 

It doesn't mention the MRC, well not as far as a quick skim through revealed, although there are plenty of other interesting, and often self-promoting, topics therein.

[Nearholmer]

He wrote a famous letter about track and wheel standards to MRN (IIRC) while he was a junior minister and on the brink of becoming minister of war transport, so I think it fair to say that he was an enthusiast. Never missed a chance to get on the footplate of the real thing either.

 

Deeply, deeply dodgy politics, though.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Nearholmer

[2mmMark]

On 24/09/2020 at 11:02, bécasse said:

The EMU drawing was for one of the flat-fronted sets built new for the Southern in 1925 and intended for use on the newly electrified ex-SEC suburban network. That rang a vague bell in the deeper recesses of my memory and I suspect that I may have seen the resultant model when I was but a lad, probably on the Southern static models stand at MRC Easter show at Central Hall in the mid-1950s (I went each year from 1954). I think that one of the Gauge 1 lads had a similar, but distinctly larger of course, model and that made it stick in my mind - I would have been familiar with the (augmented) prototype.

 

What you might have seen was Les Brown's 2.5mm scale EMU.  Les worked in TT (at 2.5mm/ft) before moving to 2mm scale.

Mark

[Dava]

On 24/09/2020 at 18:38, Nearholmer said:

He wrote a famous letter about track and wheel standards to MRN (IIRC) while he was a junior minister and on the brink of becoming minister of war transport, so I think it fair to say that he was an enthusiast. Never missed a chance to get on the footplate of the real thing either.

 

Deeply, deeply dodgy politics, though.

 

 

 

 

Lord Brabazon had his comeuppance with the commercial failure of the eponymous Bristol Brabazon aircraft project.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Brabazon

 

[Ravenser]

On 23/09/2020 at 22:44, Nearholmer said:

This thread is fascinating to anyone who is interesting in the "Wimbledon School" in the 19202-30s.

 

Was Lord Brabazon of Tara an MRC member?

 

I ask, because he was very definitely a model railway fan, and would have had the connection with Szlumper.

 

 

I've never heard it suggested that he was, and I think a connection like that might have been remembered. CF MRC might be better able to confirm or deny

[Nearholmer]

Came across him again when re-reading a biography of W J Bassett-Lowke. They were apparently quite pally, which just shows that toy trains transcend personal politics.

[Ravenser]

On 24/09/2020 at 14:33, justin1985 said:

 

As well as the models being fascinating, I'm finding this exhibition programme fascinating as well!

 

The graphic design here is amazing - the bold colour and subtle use of Gill Sans type font makes it a thing of beauty to my eye, and it must have looked very cutting edge and fashionable for its day. I even like the diagonal arrangement of the stands - much more interesting than the plain rows we're used to today.

 

I guess back then, there was little alternative than leaving graphic design to professionals, as there simply weren't the means to do it yourself. Or did the MRC have a design guru amongst its midst at that time?

 

Are the place names, "Manchester" etc, clubs attending with layouts, or showcases of models etc? Its interesting to see the NMRA there - I hadn't imagined there would have been much interest in American modelling so early on!

 

J

 

The MRC Exhibition was run for many years by the club's chairman , G.P. Keen, after whom Keen House is named. I understand that he was responsible for designing "Percy",  the MRC's logo of Mercury holding a loco, around 1930 , so it is possible he may have had a hand in designing the programmes though I think he was no longer MRC chairman by 1955 (The P in GP Keen was Percy - hence the traditional name for the logo)

 

Others would be better able to confirm than me , but I would expect that the stands are showcases of models . I came across a magazine comment somewhere about an MRC show of the period remarking that "no other club devotes such space to the static stands" .

 

The MRC was originally organised in "groups" based on prototype , not - like clubs today - by scales , so the guide  will be showing the static stands for the LMS Group and the American Group of the MRC , plus several Associated Clubs (MMRS, Epsom & Ewell etc)

 

I get the impression operating layouts were relatively sparse at the MRC Exhibition in those days