'Phoenix' range

[Tim Dubya]

Yes, you can sell 'em to Gostude.

 

Yeah, I love an Ebay bargain... they're the best

[hayfield]

Yeah, I love an Ebay bargain... they're the best

 

 

Not from me, fair price yes.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Didn't Branchlines produce some Ironclad kits at one time?

 

I suspect those were some of the joint Phoenix-Branchlines 'Goldstar' kits made before the range changed hands and ended up with the SRG. There were some certainly some very nice Maunsells with etched sides that were then pre-formed in the usual Phoenix way along with various etched underframe bits from Branchlines. They did some useful vehicles like the 1935 Brake Composites.

[rovex]

Yes, you can sell 'em to Gostude.

or me :-)

[chris45lsw]

Mea culpa! As the 'villain' of the piece it's time I contributed - if I'd been aware of this thread earlier I would have posted before

 

First my apologies to those who've emailed me & haven't had a reply. I have to confess that various matters/pressures have piled up on me in recent times & my 'in tray' has been filling up faster than I've been emptying it. Not helped by an incredibly slow & ailing computer (which I will be replacing shortly). It also crashed in (from memory) about a year ago so any unanswered query before then probably got lost. I am presently trying to clear my in tray this week & anyone waiting for a reply who doesn't hear from me by the weekend should assume I've lost their original query and try again (if they want to!). Regarding Farren who started this thread -I can't find your email (presumably in January?), I’m afraid. So possibly I deleted it in error but, depending on what you want, I am happy to supply LMS coaches to you though the timescale might not be very quick (see later!).

 

Apologies also to anyone who has actually ordered kits and has been waiting an inordinate time for their goods. Again a confession – I am not as organised as I ought to be and if you ordered a while ago and still want the kit(s) I suggest you confirm/remind me by email and I will try to advise a realistic time scale. I should add that it is not our policy to cash cheques or charge cards until we are ready to deliver.

 

The basic problem with Phoenix is that a Society (rather than a ‘proper’ business), ie SRG, bought the business from Ron Coleman’s widow. As far as I know the only candidates were us, Branchlines and Derek Lawrence. I believe Derek (since passed away, of course) wasn’t interested in view of his age & I don’t know why Jean Coleman opted for SRG over Branchlines. The principal reason for our interest was that we didn’t want to see the SR coaches, in particular, disappear from the market and, at the time, they also constituted the best part of our sales list.

 

So we have a society trying to run a ‘manufacturing’ business with volunteer officers. At first there was a team of two but when the other member stepped down I agreed to hold the fort on my own pro-tem. Pro-tem has so far lasted over ten years such is the difficulty we (& other societies for that matter) have in getting members to volunteer as society officers! So we have one man, yours truly, who is trying to run Phoenix on a part time voluntary basis so in short the problem boils down to what I can do in a limited amount of time.

 

Readers might be interested in the manufacturing process which is very time consuming & labour intensive. As has been discussed traditional Phoenix kits consist of aluminium roof, sides, floor and solebars with cast whitemetal ends. As discussed they are basic but give an accurate body to which as much detail can be added according to one’s ability and inclination. As an aside bear in mind that originally the roofs were wood so if you buy on eBay etc watch out for this as Ron re-cast the ends when he switched to aluminium (after flirting with plastic for a while) roofs. And the sides are different heights too. So mixed components from wood roof & ali roof kits are not easily made compatible.

 

There is no automation or power machinery involved with Phoenix! The openings (windows/lights etc) are stamped out using a foot treadle operated press while roofs and solebars are pressed/formed using a hand operated fly press. Then there is a foot operated guillotine to cut out the aluminium blanks to start with. So let’s take something relatively straightforward, say an LMS corridor third, which has three window sizes on the compartment side. So you set up the punch for the large lights and punch each of the seven lights in a side individually one by one. Then you take down that tool and set up the lav window stamp & cut two of those, then another change of tool to stamp the two door lights.

 

And a roof takes three tools/operations – the first which forms the gutter each side; the second which does the basic curve in the middle of the roof and the third which forms the sharper curve each side.

 

Of course there are lots of other ancillary operations as well. One thing Ron never used to do was scribe the door lines. We (SRG) opted to do this which was another rod for our own backs – it obviously adds considerably to the production time of a kit and I’m considering dropping this. What do readers think? An alternative might be to offer kits with and without scribing with a suitable price difference.

 

Another problem we have is that the tooling is getting old – the first Phoenix, then BSL, kits date from 1967 ie 46 years ago. A few tools are broken so there are some kits we can’t now make at all and some are not giving satisfactory results having lost their sharpness. Does anyone out there know how to re-sharpen stamping tools (I assume this is possible)?

 

As has been pointed out our website is well overdue for up-dating and I’m drafting revisions at present. If SRG and I are to continue with Phoenix we need to cut our coat according to our cloth, ie we need to manage demand to an extent I am able and willing to cope with. At the moment we give the impression we can offer far more than is feasible. To that end the revised list will be thinned down to some extent taking account of those tools which no longer give satisfactory service. And the restriction on sales to SRG members will be removed from the revised website. Incidentally the restriction originated when our fly press broke and I couldn’t therefore make certain components for several months before I found a replacement. To an extent the problems started then & we never really got back on an even keel thereafter. I have not enforced the restriction for some time but it presumably deterred some potential customers. Demand might therefore go up and, depending on the level, I might have to periodically close our order book.

 

Of course if one was starting a coach kit business today you wouldn’t invent the Phoenix method – you’d presumably etch. And that is a possible way forward. We already sell a few kits with 247 Developments brass sides and I would like to substitute etched brass sides in a number of our other kits. I haven’t found this as simple/straightforward as I expected but the first two might be ready in a few months. Once set up this would obviously speed up production time.

 

While on the subject of etching someone mentioned the current unavailability of our 8ft wb bogie trucks. This arises out of a problem I gather affects several cottage industries who like us have/had artwork with Chempix. Basically they don’t seem to want to bother with tiddlers like us and their price structure now makes it uneconomic to continue our relationship so I’ve retrieved our photo tools. I haven’t yet found a new home for them but intend to re-introduce the trucks as soon as poss. At the moment I still have stocks of 7ft, 8ft 6in and 9ft wb trucks. Yes our cosmetic sideframes will happily attach to other arrangements such as MJT CCUs.

 

By the way the Phoenix tools will cut styrene just as well as aluminium – in fact it is easier and quicker (and cheaper) so I am happy to supply styrene sides to those who prefer to work in plastic.

 

Also by the way we supply a range of bogies and other castings. Sale of these was never restricted to members only and the problems alluded to only apply to aluminium components which are manufactured in house.

 

I know it’s been quoted in this thread (& is on our website) but my personal email is chriskthomas@waitrose.com

 

I will attempt to answer any further comments. In the meantime will try to do better in future!

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[Tim Dubya]

Thanks Chris

 

All the best

 

Tim

[Jol Wilkinson]

Chris,

 

regarding photo etching, the two companies that the model trade lean towards are Grainge and Hodder or Photo Etch Consultants. PPD in Scotland use a different approach to their photo tooling and may not be able to use what you already have.

 

I would suggest you consider G&H as most of the etch kit producers that left Chempix for the same reasons that you have moved to PEC, thus their lead times have become rather long.

 

Jol

[Coach bogie]

Chris,

 

regarding photo etching, the two companies that the model trade lean towards are Grainge and Hodder or Photo Etch Consultants. PPD in Scotland use a different approach to their photo tooling and may not be able to use what you already have.

 

I would suggest you consider G&H as most of the etch kit producers that left Chempix for the same reasons that you have moved to PEC, thus their lead times have become rather long.

 

Jol

Geen kits moved to G&H same reason. Much more economical and currently happy with one off test etchs. Lead times are up and down. A large order for coach etches took a couple of months then a short order for 517's, appeared in a couple of weeks.

 

Just one question. Are the GWR kits likely to reappear? Many Great Western Study Group members keep asking the stewards for updates.Personally, I had a pair of D105's on order but communications ceased a few years back. From your post I understand why.

 

Clearly there are kits in the range that are now available for other sources and I am not convinced duplication is beneficial. For example the artics are now available from Worsley Works and CPL. These were never in Ron's original listings and were only available to those in the know. I only had confirmation of their existence when Ron died and Derek Lawrence found me a set when sorting through the workshop The autocoaches may be of limited appeal with alternatives with etched kits and what was once a good seller for Ron, the A30, being available from Airfix/Hornby. Diners will may be popular as Comet etc only produce the post 1938 versions. If you want original windows BSL/Phoenix was/is the only game in town, though Worlsey Works are planning the H26 according to their list.

 

As far as door scribing is concerned, if it halts the availability, do not scribe, in my opinion.

 

Thanks again for your post

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Re6/6]

Many thanks Chris for that thorough explanation of the situation at SRG.

 

It certainly seems that you've got a lot on your solitary shoulders.

 

I'm interested to see that you could produce sides in 'plasticard' or something similar. Although I've built several aluminium (wood roof) BSL kits from Hobbytime (and still have quite a stock of them in the drawers!) plastic sides instead of aluminium would be good to have as an alternative.

 

Perhaps consideration could be given to using this alternative, supplying just sides and cast ends (presumably stock items) as 'scratchbuilding aids', as accurate sides are the making of a good model.

Us modellers can be quite resourceful in 'mixing and matching' from alternative suppliers (MJT brass bogies with cast cosmetic frames) and their aluminium roof sections. Although these will probably be not quite right I would certainly use them.

 

I did wonder at the vast range in the lists and 'thinning' would seem to be a practical move. Concentrating on the range of Southern EMUs and maybe one or two obscure 'nondescript' Maunsells since so much is now available in proprietary and other manufacturers etched kits.

 

The big hole to fill for us Southern Electric modellers is the various first generation EMUs that aren't covered by Hornby et al....2BILs and (IIRC) a 4COR sometime in the future.

PULs, PANs 'Tin' HALs etc. would be very useful.  I'm guessing that due to the seeming success of their 2BIL I wouldn't be suprised if a 2HAL didn't appear in the future!

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

All the best.

[Budgie]

I did wonder at the vast range in the lists and 'thinning' would seem to be a practical move. Concentrating on the range of Southern EMUs and maybe one or two obscure 'nondescript' Maunsells since so much is now available in proprietary and other manufacturers etched kits.

I was thinking that if you did decide to discontinue any items as suggested by Re6/6, they might be sold off or licensed to other manufacturers who would produce and sell them, thereby ensuring extra cash for your organisation and continuity of supply for the modeller.

[chris45lsw]

Thanks for the various thoughts and suggestions, folks.

 

I will be asking G&H if they would be able to take on the etching of our brass bogie trucks. And I may be on the verge of having a the sides of a couple of coaches etched and they will probably go to PPD.

 

Sorry, Mike, that your order for two D.105s disappeared into a black hole. I will see what I can do if you still want them. If so would you want one left hand and one right? GWR coaches have never actually, at least technically, disappeared and, when I thin the range, will still be prominent. I do, in fact, have a number of GWR sides in stock. Of course S*d’s Law says rarely the ones somebody wants! The 1929 bow ended 60ft stock with recessed door handles is one range I’d be particularly loth to drop but, unfortunately, we are having trouble with the tooling. I’m wondering about etching them instead. But a possible problem then is that the various inset doors in brake vehicles etc are formed with assorted press tools. I’m not sure whether brass would be as amenable to this process as aluminium.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[OnTheBranchline]

http://www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/

 

For anyone who wants to know, Lazarus might rise from the dead. As per their website:

 

 

The SRG is in the process of reviewing the stock and tooling for the kits over the winter of 2015/6, prior to a re-launch of the range in 2016.

[cary hill]

http://www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/

 

For anyone who wants to know, Lazarus might rise from the dead. As per their website:

 

Has Jesus joined the SRG? They kept that quiet.

[Horsetan]

Has Jesus joined the SRG? They kept that quiet.

I've seen glaciers move faster.

[Re6/6]

Back in 2013 I was in communication with SRG and was told that the machinery for stamping out the aluminium sides was worn so I asked for some sets of sides to be pressed out in 20 thou plastic card which would have been kinder to the elderly tools.

 

This line of thought seemed to be progressing then it all went quiet.

 

I joined the SRG as, at the time, membership was required so that orders could be placed. 

 

If Chris K-T is still on here it would be good to hear more about the above announcement.

 

I have built several of the old BSL coach kits bought from Hobbytime in the past, which although 'old school' can be made into very respectable models so it would be really good to have them available again.

[The Fatadder]

Interested to see what happens,

I need a J12 sleeper first, and I think I'm right in saying Phoenix is the only option...

[Re6/6]

Here's one made earlier. About 40 years ago actually and never completed. Perhaps one day.

 

Old fashioned wooden roof and cast ends. Not sure about those door hinges though!

 

They aren't up to par compared with etched brass but do put together quite nicely. I still have about 20 of the things to build including some 70 footers which will be the more likely ones to get built.

 

[The Fatadder]

Very nice John!

[Re6/6]

...a bit more 'old school'...

 

A BSL 57 ft slip with the better aluminium roof. I don't know the diagram number. I'm assuming that it is reasonably accurate, 

 

 

This is from a competitor at the time. A 'Westdale' aluminium wrapper. Again, not sure if it accurate. Could it be a 'Sunshine' type coach?

 

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

If they can't do it properly, why not sell everything to Parkside Dundas or Dapol?

[cary hill]

If they can't do it properly, why not sell everything to Parkside Dundas or Dapol?

 

Based on performance Cooper Craft would be the best fit........gone already

[Horsetan]

If they can't do it properly, why not sell everything to Parkside Dundas or Dapol?

 

Parkside Dundas / Dapol may not want to buy them.

[rovex]

If they can't do it properly, why not sell everything to Parkside Dundas or Dapol?

 

"Selling" may not be an option, donating may be more like it

[Coach bogie]

If they can't do it properly, why not sell everything to Parkside Dundas or Dapol?

 

Why would the range be of any interest to Parkside or Dapol? I would not have thought that the  stamping equipment required would really integrate with their current business.

 

As with all the 'historic' ranges, an honest appraisal of which coaches should be brought back to avoid more modern duplications. 

Do not misunderstand me, I am a great fan of BSL. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count how many I have running on my layout and there are three 70ft south wales coaches on my work bench.

 

There is much of the range which should sell well, especially if eBay prices are an indicator. 1929 stock, 1936 ranges, All the diners (original windows), etc.

 

 

Looking at the list, I see little point in updating the tooling for for any of the 1925 Colletts.( possibly release the D94, sides only to put on Hornby).

 

The auto trailers are a question mark from me as it duplicates the ex Airfix. Possibly the A27 but there was a brass one in development.

 

Hawsworth full brake would be a waste effort in my opinion.

 

Even the artics- Worsley Works have produced them in brass for many years (with the correct kitchen car windows).

 

The suburbans are often called for. I managed to extract a full four car set out of SRG, when they first took the range over, but the D109 is not accurate and has the guards door flush rather than recessed.

 

The E145 B set is the Airfix, though I run the BSL as it captures the look better in my opinion.

 

I like the BSL centenaries but as a mid 1930's GWR modeller they are fine for me. It is a big job to put in the window frames if you model post 1937.If you are updating these SRG, please consider changing the die to include the window frames.

 

Even the South Wales stock has been covered by Comet. (though I use BSL/Phoenix bodies on Comet underframes.

 

It is just my appreciation of the situation, but I honestly believe, less is more and that concentrating on diagrams unique to BSL and avoiding duplication, unless it is sides only, can only benefit the range in the long term.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[OnTheBranchline]

Why would the range be of any interest to Parkside or Dapol? I would not have thought that the  stamping equipment required would really integrate with their current business.

 

As with all the 'historic' ranges, an honest appraisal of which coaches should be brought back to avoid more modern duplications. 

Do not misunderstand me, I am a great fan of BSL. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count how many I have running on my layout and there are three 70ft south wales coaches on my work bench.

 

There is much of the range which should sell well, especially if eBay prices are an indicator. 1929 stock, 1936 ranges, All the diners (original windows), etc.

 

 

Looking at the list, I see little point in updating the tooling for for any of the 1925 Colletts.( possibly release the D94, sides only to put on Hornby).

 

The auto trailers are a question mark from me as it duplicates the ex Airfix. Possibly the A27 but there was a brass one in development.

 

Hawsworth full brake would be a waste effort in my opinion.

 

Even the artics- Worsley Works have produced them in brass for many years (with the correct kitchen car windows).

 

The suburbans are often called for. I managed to extract a full four car set out of SRG, when they first took the range over, but the D109 is not accurate and has the guards door flush rather than recessed.

 

The E145 B set is the Airfix, though I run the BSL as it captures the look better in my opinion.

 

I like the BSL centenaries but as a mid 1930's GWR modeller they are fine for me. It is a big job to put in the window frames if you model post 1937.If you are updating these SRG, please consider changing the die to include the window frames.

 

Even the South Wales stock has been covered by Comet. (though I use BSL/Phoenix bodies on Comet underframes.

 

It is just my appreciation of the situation, but I honestly believe, less is more and that concentrating on diagrams unique to BSL and avoiding duplication, unless it is sides only, can only benefit the range in the long term.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Mike,

 

I just meant they should sell/give the range to someone who actually cares to produce the kits.