Older Inspirational Layouts

[New Haven Neil]

I certainly recall seeing all those layouts, a pal and I used to go each year but I got married in March 84 so visits decreased....bah.

 

The snow I refer to might have been after the Model Engineer exhibition as we used to go to that also, we came out of the Wembley place to heaps of snow, and had a difficult journey home, we used to get the 23.58 out of the Cross for Newcastle so could do it on a day return.  My pal was a signalman so he didn't have to pay, but I did!  We left hours late that night as it was chaos, the loos were frozen so we had to pee out of the window!  I think we arrived in Newcastle about 8am.  

 

That period for me is just full of classic layouts, it was such a great time.

[westerner]

That period for me is just full of classic layouts, it was such a great time.

 

Ah nostalgia is a wonderful thing .

[Kubes]

44 minutes ago, westerner said:

Ah nostalgia is a wonderful thing .

Nah! It's not what it used to be!

[Regularity]

On 26/03/2021 at 17:03, Bulwell Hall said:

Bernard was employed in the printing trade somewhere in South London

 

including a Black Five with an extra motor to reverse the valve gear

Bernard would happily regale anyone who was even vaguely interested with stories about the difficulties of colour printing with respect to the variations possible when reproducing certain skin tones...

 

I wonder if the black five was the work of John Noble? He certainly fitted working gear to his class 2 Ivatt prairie tank.

[Pacific231G]

On 27/03/2021 at 23:49, pete_mcfarlane said:

I remember being impressed by the article in the MRC annual ('South for moonshine'), especially by the model EMUs. This was in the early 1990s when I acquired my late Grandfather's railway books, and modelling the Southern electric was rare.

 

I think Clapham Junction has a few less platforms than in real life.  That's the only bit for me that doesn't work - I can believe the 5 platform Victoria and 3 platform East Croydon, but not the tiny Clapham Junction. 

Reading Lewis Carroll's own MRN articles about his layout, I think the idea was that "Clapham Junction" was just the Brighton Like platforms.

I remembered another Brighton Line layout on somewhat similar lines that I was fascinated by when I read about it as a youngster. I have now found an article about it in the January 1960 MRN but have a feeling that I read about it somewhere else.

The layout was described by Doug Williams, ( the EM gauge pioneer best known for "Metropolitan Junction")  but  "The Purley Railway" was built by a Mr. Fowler, also in a garage "in sight of the Brighton Line".  

There was only a diagramatic plan in the article and, though it's hard to be sure, from the photos and the angles they were taken from, it looks like the garage was a single one  so the diagram may have distorted the shape.

  The article doesn't say what the minimum radius was but, from the photos, I reckon he was likely using the BRMSB recommended minima of three foot radius (no 5) turnouts and 30 inch curves. 

Though bearing absolutely no ressemblance to the real Brighton, the terminus looks quite convincing. Four coach train lengths (EMU and loco hauled) seem to have been the norm 

The layout was powered by outside third rail and, though Mr. Fowler had considered conversion to two rail electrification, the prospect of relaying 400ft of track to replace brass sleepers with insulated ones was too daunting. That does suggest that the layout had been built some time earlier*. 

The layout is basically a double track oval with the terminus as a branch and a single track reversing loop. That gave him a fairly dramatic stretch of four track main line and, with a Brighton-Brighton run of 132 feet, the layout could have been operated purely out and back to a sequence timetable (as with Lewis Carroll's layout) but there's no mention of that. The article says that a slow goods train would take about two minutes to complete the run (though if there were any goods facilities at Brighton it was only a single siding) but that seems rather fast for a two mile run at say 20MPH. 

At the end of the article Doug Williams does say that "In my opinion it is too large for one man to maintain, for it is almost a full time job to keep the track clean enough to ensure good running, an opinion not shared by the owner." The advantage of third rail perhaps but curious since his own two rail EM Metropolitan Junction layout surely came to have just as much track and I wonder if he visited it on a day when the gremlins were busy.  

 

(*I hadn't realised until very recently that Ken Payne's original EM gauge Tyling branch was also laid on brass sleepers and used very discrete stud contact. I dont know how his later Castlecombe layout that incorporated Tyling as a through station was powered)  

 

[Donw]

3 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Reading Lewis Carroll's own MRN articles about his layout, I think the idea was that "Clapham Junction" was just the Brighton Like platforms.

I remembered another Brighton Line layout on somewhat similar lines that I was fascinated by when I read about it as a youngster. I have now found an article about it in the January 1960 MRN but have a feeling that I read about it somewhere else.

The layout was described by Doug Williams, ( the EM gauge pioneer best known for "Metropolitan Junction")  but  "The Purley Railway" was built by a Mr. Fowler, also in a garage "in sight of the Brighton Line".  

There was only a diagramatic plan in the article and, though it's hard to be sure, from the photos and the angles they were taken from, it looks like the garage was a single one  so the diagram may have distorted the shape.

  The article doesn't say what the minimum radius was but, from the photos, I reckon he was likely using the BRMSB recommended minima of three foot radius (no 5) turnouts and 30 inch curves. 

Though bearing absolutely no ressemblance to the real Brighton, the terminus looks quite convincing. Four coach train lengths (EMU and loco hauled) seem to have been the norm 

 

 

(*I hadn't realised until very recently that Ken Payne's original EM gauge Tyling branch was also laid on brass sleepers and used very discrete stud contact. I dont know how his later Castlecombe layout that incorporated Tyling as a through station was powered)  

 

 

I am pretty sure Ken's Castlecombe was 2 rail. 

 

Don

[DLT]

4 hours ago, Donw said:

I am pretty sure Ken's Castlecombe was 2 rail. 

Don

Yes, Castle Coombe was 2-rail, EM gauge. 

I've just looked it up; Railway Modeller April 1968, with some excellent photos by CJF.

This was one of the mainline layouts that really inspired me.  Another one was "London, Bristol & South Wales" by John Jay, RM July 1969.

And I remember from a visit to The Central Hall, a large circular layout, that was a mainline circuit on one level, with a single track section at a lower level.  I don't recall any more about it, or ever seeing it in a magazine though.

[Donw]

2 minutes ago, DLT said:

Yes, Castle Coombe was 2-rail, EM gauge. 

I've just looked it up; Railway Modeller April 1968, with some excellent photos by CJF.

This was one of the mainline layouts that really inspired me.  Another one was "London, Bristol & South Wales" by John Jay, RM July 1969.

And I remember from a visit to The Central Hall, a large circular layout, that was a mainline circuit on one level, with a single track section at a lower level.  I don't recall any more about it, or ever seeing it in a magazine though.

 

Thanks Dave I was going from memory from when I was sat with Ken nattering about railways while a train ran round his big 0 gaauge layout. Happy afternoons.

 

Don

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, DLT said:

And I remember from a visit to The Central Hall, a large circular layout, that was a mainline circuit on one level, with a single track section at a lower level.  I don't recall any more about it, or ever seeing it in a magazine though.

Would that have been the Southend club's layout? The stations were named after various CMEs. They built at least one circular layout and, later, an oval one. Like you, I don't ever remember seeing it in a magazine but there was a plan and description in the show guide from when I saw it - possibly about 1966.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Would that have been the Southend club's layout? The stations were named after various CMEs. They built at least one circular layout and, later, an oval one. Like you, I don't ever remember seeing it in a magazine but there was a plan and description in the show guide from when I saw it - possibly about 1966.

Curate's Egg

Model Railways September 1972

 

Southend MRC has a history of circular (or near circular) layouts. They had Teignton Sands, an N gauge layout as Railway of the Month in September 1997. Note that's exactly 25 years later.

 

The club must have had a good baseboard construction team to build circular layouts.

[uax6]

Talking of stud contact, is anyone still using it?

 

Andy G

[Pacific231G]

9 hours ago, Piston said:

If John Ahern wrote an article on Chinnor station does anyone know which mag/date please ?

He did Watlington in MRN Aug 1950 & Aston Rowant in Sept 1950.

Thanks.

 

 

Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain that he didn't. It's certainly not in any of the lists of his articles and,  In the intro, to "More about the Watlington Branch" in Sept. 1950 he says that following the Watlington article the previous month he promised "to return to the subject with some details of one of the through stations on the same line. The one selected is Aston Rowant. It is quite typical". At the end of the article he also says "That may complete our survery of Aston Rowant, but for good measure I have added photograph 6, to show you the style of two or three simple halts situated on this line. This one is known as Bledlow Bridge" From this, I think it's clear that he had no intention of doing a third article about the branch, either because he hadn't visited Chinnor or simply didn't think it added anything. He would have passed Bledlow Bridge if he went to the Red Lion (now the Lions of Bledlow) Inn for a pint. As his visit was during a day of motoring with his wife that seems entirely likely. 

The two articles aren't really a survey of the branch but more a description of two stations that he thought would make interesting models. The line was closed completely on Sundays and, from the photos, it looks like that was when he visited as both staton look very closed and he was free to wander around them quite freely.  The articles seem to have been based solely on what he observed and photographed during his visit and, though John Ahern was of course a very good observer, he doesn't appear to have researched the line any further and even thought that the carriage shed at Watlington "must be to protect perishable loads from the weather while waiting to be picked up. At least, I cannot think of any other likely use for it." It's also curious that he describes the bridge by which the A40 crossed the line at the southern end of the station as "of brick I believe" which suggests that he took his photos and some notes fairly quickly before moving on and based the article on what was in them. In the first article he does mention the use of the 24inch to the mile OS map so he may have refined the track plans from those.

What we don't know is when he actually visited the line.  Gammon End station, which is a model of the almost identical buildings at Watlington and Aston Rowant. didn't appear in print until the iteration of the Madder Valley described in the June 1951 MRN but the layout's rebuilding in a new home had taken place in 1948. There is a photo of Pannier Tank 2112 in the Watlington article and it seems to have the letters GWR very faintly on the side of the tank- so faintly that I suspect JHA may jave doctored the photo to conceal its age. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

Just now, uax6 said:

Talking of stud contact, is anyone still using it?

 

Andy G

Do you mean apart from anyone using Märklin AC? 

[uax6]

2 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Do you mean apart from anyone using Märklin AC? 

Yes, proper uk stud contact...

 

Andy G

[bécasse]

12 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Yes, proper uk stud contact...

 

Andy G

I am sure that if Jacob Rees-Mogg has a model railway it will use traditional British stud-contact.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

12 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I am sure that if Jacob Rees-Mogg has a model railway it will use traditional British stud-contact.

 

Nah, clockwork.

[Donw]

Well good old 3 rail is alive and well (long may it continue)  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120371-deliberately-old-fashioned-0-scale/    an interesting thread.  So I would not be surprised to find stud contact still being used.  Perhaps not in 4mm.

 

Don 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

On 30/03/2021 at 23:18, DLT said:

Another one was "London, Bristol & South Wales" by John Jay, RM July 1969.

 

I remember that one. Think it appeared in a number of issues of RM around that time. I always felt it looked most realistic and railwaylike. Wonder what happened to it?

Indeed, what happens to most old home-based layouts?

[Donw]

Martin Brent told me that he had gone down to see what was salvageable of Ken Northwoods layout when he died. He said some of it had rather dodgey supports and it would have been a major task to dismantle and reassemble elsewhere.

 

I think this is true of many layouts. Even if the baseboards are in sections bits get added bridging the sections wiring gets run straight across joins and then the scenics do the same. I suspect few have an accurate wiring diagram it is mostly in the owners head. Couple this to the fact that any new owner will have there own ideas and you can see there is not that much demand for old layout especially if the owner has neglected maintenance for a few years.

 

Don

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

Talking of stud contact, is anyone still using it?

 

Andy G

Not British but:

 

 

[Nearholmer]

There are still a few retro-type 0-gauge stud-contact layouts around, including an excellent garden line of the old type, owned by a prominent member of G0G, who has the most amazing collection of old "one off" amateur and professional built models to run on it.

[uax6]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

There are still a few retro-type 0-gauge stud-contact layouts around, including an excellent garden line of the old type, owned by a prominent member of G0G, who has the most amazing collection of old "one off" amateur and professional built models to run on it.

 

Does he happen to have any of Frank Roomes stock? I've been trying to locate some for years, but they all seem to have vanished...

 

Andy G

[DLT]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

Martin Brent told me that he had gone down to see what was salvageable of Ken Northwoods layout when he died. He said some of it had rather dodgey supports and it would have been a major task to dismantle and reassemble elsewhere.

 

I think this is true of many layouts. Even if the baseboards are in sections bits get added bridging the sections wiring gets run straight across joins and then the scenics do the same. I suspect few have an accurate wiring diagram it is mostly in the owners head. Couple this to the fact that any new owner will have there own ideas and you can see there is not that much demand for old layout especially if the owner has neglected maintenance for a few years.

 

Don

Quite so Don.

I also wonder, looking at some of these older big home-based layouts, just how well they worked.

[St Enodoc]

6 minutes ago, DLT said:

Quite so Don.

I also wonder, looking at some of these older big home-based layouts, just how well they worked.

I understand that the original North Devonshire, built in Edinburgh, worked very well but the rebuild following Ken Northwood's retirement to Devon was not so good.

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, bécasse said:

I am sure that if Jacob Rees-Mogg has a model railway it will use traditional British stud-contact.

I imagine the member for the eighteenth century probably regards rallways as an unpleasant moderrn incursion likely to encourage the lower orders to travel around and not know their place. That was certainly the Duke of Wellington's view when the Liverpool and Manchester was built.