C J Freezer's own layout

[Pacific231G]

My desert islands discs request is 'can we get back to the thread topic please.'

Malcolm

Is that one of your disks or your luxury Malcolm  ?

In any event I'm afraid that particular ship sailed about thirty posts ago and we really reached the end of what we collectively know about Cyril Freezer's own layouts by about #58. No matter, we've had an interesting discussion about his contribution to the hobby along with several other related matters such as the extent to which Sidney Pritchard did or did not use RM as a vehicle to promote Peco's own products. FWIW I suspect that the reportedly often fraught relationship between the two of them did more to advance the hobby in Britain than almost anything else.   

[Andy Kirkham]

The reason for giving them the Bible and Shakespeare already was that a boringly high percentage of castaways would have chosen them. By having them there already they had to make a more individual choice. 

 

 

Roy Plomley must have had his work cut out sailing the globe and depositing bibles and Shakespeares on every island.

[PatB]

I did Macbeth for O Level Eng. Lit. and came to rather enjoy it, although I didn't think much of the requirement to analyse it to death rather than enjoy it for what it was. I just about struggled through the mid-Victorian mawkishness of Jane Eyre with a sufficient level of comprehension to make do. Frankly I'm not surprised the Bronte brother felt the need to get utterly wasted on laudanum on a regular basis.  As for Hardy's The Woodlanders I found it both indigestible and unrelentingly miserable (something which seems common to all his work from what I can see) so I gave up and did The History of Mr Polly off my own bat instead. It must have worked 'cos I managed to get a B in spite of my general dislike of the subject.

[luckymucklebackit]

Roy Plomley must have had his work cut out sailing the globe and depositing bibles and Shakespeares on every island.

 

Would only needed to have deposited Shakespeare, the Gideons probably left the bible there already, 

[Nearholmer]

I’ve stayed in a few hotels in recent years where there was no bible. Have the Gideons given-up, or is it tha5 there are more hotels, and fewer of them? (I now have a mental image of The Last of the Gideons, a very, very, very old and frail person, dragging a huge trolleyload of heavy bibles, climbing stair, after stair, after stair, opening and closing yet another bedside drawer, etc etc)

[Pacific231G]

Roy Plomley must have had his work cut out sailing the globe and depositing bibles and Shakespeares on every island.

I remember in his last years on the programme that Plomley took  the premise terribly seriously and seemed to worry a lot about whether the luxury or even the book might be in some way useful. Keeping to the rules of the game of course but he took it so seriously that it was almost as if he thought the guests really were going to be castaway on a desert island. In that event of course their choice of music would have been the least of their worries though we did wonder if the desert island was really a World Service relay station.  

 

There used to be an odd situation with BBC World Service's retransmission of Desert Island Disks where, instead of simply playing out the complete tape of the domestic programme, this was edited with gaps for the music  which were then played in live from records. It was due to some bizarre aspect of music copyright that the gramophone companies insisted on. I think this had ended by the time I worked there but it was a favourite live studio exercise for Radio Training to put us under pressure with.

 

Back OT I have found an article in RM by Nick Freezer describing the building of his own layout (before the folding University one) which mentions his father's layout in the garage. I think it was from the 1970s but I'd have to go back to check.

[RJS1977]

I’ve stayed in a few hotels in recent years where there was no bible. Have the Gideons given-up, or is it tha5 there are more hotels, and fewer of them? (I now have a mental image of The Last of the Gideons, a very, very, very old and frail person, dragging a huge trolleyload of heavy bibles, climbing stair, after stair, after stair, opening and closing yet another bedside drawer, etc etc)

 

No, they're very much still on the go.

[Poggy1165]

CJF must be on the shortlist for the most influential single figure in 20th Century Railway Modelling. His was the face that launched a thousand Ashburtons, and while it's fashionable to mock those endless GW branchline layouts now, they were a step towards realism in a world that was largely made up of track-crammed-into-every-square-inch layouts, often on 6' x 4' or 8' x 4' boards.

 

He also gave us practical access to such great modellers as Charman, Denny, Hancock, Harrison, Jenkinson and Pyrke to name but a few.

 

If he was but an "average" modeller himself, it makes the track record even more remarkable.

[luckymucklebackit]

His three blue books were my Bibles during the long years when I didn't have space for a layout, I would pore over the plans for hours trying to imagine them being built. Plan number 24 from his book “Plans for Larger Layouts” was my favorite, and my present layout reflects fairly closely the features of that plan.

 

Jim

[Pacific231G]

His three blue books were my Bibles during the long years when I didn't have space for a layout, I would pore over the plans for hours trying to imagine them being built. Plan number 24 from his book “Plans for Larger Layouts” was my favorite, and my present layout reflects fairly closely the features of that plan.

 

Jim

I absolutely agree with you about plan 24L in the first edition of Larger Layouts (it disappeared from later editions which seemed a shame) It's probably my second favourite CJF plan after Minories.

Version of it have appeared twice as Railway of the Month. My favourite was G.D.Astins'  "Stephenton" (April 1959) which, using Pecoway track and point kits (nominal 3ft radius)  followed the track plan though not the scenic treatment exactly enough to use the published plan as the layout plan. It gave a wonderful impression of urban railway scenery at one end and open countryside at the other. The gasworks was particularly effective  as were the lines emerging from tunnels under the town. The other published version was J.F. Webster's Borchester in August 1963 which added a small branchline. It would be good to see your version.

 

What I like about the plan is that although it's essentially a single track oval with a terminus and a reverse curve for out and back working, it gives the impression of a busy double track main line.

[Pacific231G]

CJF must be on the shortlist for the most influential single figure in 20th Century Railway Modelling. His was the face that launched a thousand Ashburtons, and while it's fashionable to mock those endless GW branchline layouts now, they were a step towards realism in a world that was largely made up of track-crammed-into-every-square-inch layouts, often on 6' x 4' or 8' x 4' boards.

 

He also gave us practical access to such great modellers as Charman, Denny, Hancock, Harrison, Jenkinson and Pyrke to name but a few.

 

If he was but an "average" modeller himself, it makes the track record even more remarkable.

Certainly among the most influential in Britain though John Ahern might be an even stronger contendor. Bob Essery's tribute did though suggest maybe not quite so average. At one time when he was working to EMF standards- which must have been as challenging then as S4 is now- he was despondent when a loco he'd just built lurched alarmingly on a particular siding he was testing it on; that was until the layout's bulder then told him  that his was the only loco that had ever negotiated that particular stretch of track at all without derailing.

 

The Average Enthusiast subtltle earned a lot of stick with smarmie comments about Railway Toddler etc, but in reality he quietly introduced RM's readers to some very fine modellers without a hint of the elitism that sometimes creeps into writing about fine scale.

[talisman56]

His three blue books were my Bibles during the long years when I didn't have space for a layout, I would pore over the plans for hours trying to imagine them being built. Plan number 24 from his book “Plans for Larger Layouts” was my favorite, and my present layout reflects fairly closely the features of that plan.

 

Jim

 

My particular favourite is No 25 over the page (in the 2nd Edition) - with daughter moving out in the next month or so (if her and the other party's solicitors get their fingers out, that is) I will have a nice space to put it in (suitably resized for N-gauge, of course).

 

EDIT: Just had a quick go with SCARM and can fit the 9'6" x 7'6" layout into 2m x 1m in 'N'. First draft plan below, imagine the terminus at the top over the top of the three fiddle yard roads next to the junction station. Needs to have a bit of adjustment to the length of the main line, make it a little longer (and thus the inner terminal station platforms), and the upper terminal lines can be a bit shorter, meaning I can model a station building and forecourt. The max passenger train length is 5x Mk1 or equivalent, and I'm happy with that. If I want longer trains I just increase the length of the long side of the layout Can't do much more with it as it is, as I am at the limit of pieces for the free version of SCARM, and that included adding text labels for the different bits...

 

[luckymucklebackit]

I absolutely agree with you about plan 24L in the first edition of Larger Layouts (it disappeared from later editions which seemed a shame) It's probably my second favourite CJF plan after Minories.

Version of it have appeared twice as Railway of the Month. My favourite was G.D.Astins'  "Stephenton" (April 1959) which, using Pecoway track and point kits (nominal 3ft radius)  followed the track plan though not the scenic treatment exactly enough to use the published plan as the layout plan. It gave a wonderful impression of urban railway scenery at one end and open countryside at the other. The gasworks was particularly effective  as were the lines emerging from tunnels under the town. The other published version was J.F. Webster's Borchester in August 1963 which added a small branchline. It would be good to see your version.

 

What I like about the plan is that although it's essentially a single track oval with a terminus and a reverse curve for out and back working, it gives the impression of a busy double track main line.

 

 

Just to clarify - it is L24 in the Second Edition that was my favourite.  The 9ft 6in by 7ft 6in end to end with single track continuous run and three stations.  If you follow the link in my signature you will see that my layout has all these features,

 

Jim

[talisman56]

Just to clarify - it is L24 in the Second Edition that was my favourite.  The 9ft 6in by 7ft 6in end to end with single track continuous run and three stations.  If you follow the link in my signature you will see that my layout has all these features,

 

Jim

 

Thus invited, I had a look at your layout thread. Looks great; the tenement impresses, as does the work done on all the colour-light signalling. Look forward to seeing more...

[bécasse]

 

The Average Enthusiast subtltle earned a lot of stick with smarmie comments about Railway Toddler etc, but in reality he quietly introduced RM's readers to some very fine modellers without a hint of the elitism that sometimes creeps into writing about fine scale.

I have said it before, but I will say it again. I believe that the Railway Toddler nickname came about because it was the "youngster" on the newsstands in the 1950s, Model Railway News having started in 1925 and Model Railway Constructor in the 1930s. Few railway modellers, even members of The Model Railway Club, would have rated themselves as being more than average at the time.

[Pacific231G]

Just to clarify - it is L24 in the Second Edition that was my favourite.  The 9ft 6in by 7ft 6in end to end with single track continuous run and three stations.  If you follow the link in my signature you will see that my layout has all these features,

 

Jim

Ah, that's 7L in the first edition and it certainly packs plenty of operation into a medium sized space. I think he's balanced the two passenger termini well though goods traffic would flow entirely between the lower terminus and the through station.

 

I've just been through your excellent layout thread with great interest and notice that you've added a fiddle yard to your version of the plan. That does seem to be missing from a lot of CJF's earlier plans but seems to have been the norm with larger multi-station layouts going right back to Edward Beal. I suppose they were operated as complete self-contained railways with the lack of any connection with the rest of the world simply ignored.

[St Enodoc]

Ah, that's 7L in the first edition and it certainly packs plenty of operation into a medium sized space. I think he's balanced the two passenger termini well though goods traffic would flow entirely between the lower terminus and the through station.

 

I've just been through your excellent layout thread with great interest and notice that you've added a fiddle yard to your version of the plan. That does seem to be missing from a lot of CJF's earlier plans but seems to have been the norm with larger multi-station layouts going right back to Edward Beal. I suppose they were operated as complete self-contained railways with the lack of any connection with the rest of the world simply ignored.

The main reason, and CJF wrote this many times himself, was that few modellers had enough stock to need a large fiddle yard. When he redrew many of his plans in the 1980s more stock storage was one of the principal changes.

[Pacific231G]

I have said it before, but I will say it again. I believe that the Railway Toddler nickname came about because it was the "youngster" on the newsstands in the 1950s, Model Railway News having started in 1925 and Model Railway Constructor in the 1930s. Few railway modellers, even members of The Model Railway Club, would have rated themselves as being more than average at the time.

That may well be true bécasse but when I see it referred to as "The Toddler" nowadays it's usually in a disparaging way implying that it's not aimed at "serious" modellers.

 

It's interesting how the meaning of the word "average" has changed over the years from suggesting the mainstream of modellers to those of only mediocre skills (mediocre having already changed its meaning to second rate) . It's a bit like Michael Gove saying that he expected schools to be above average "to be judged on making sure that children are on track and are not falling back-and, indeed, do better than the average". Had he said that he wanted all children to do better than the current average that would have been a worthwhile aim. 

[Nearholmer]

Talisman

 

After a lifetime of 'reading' track plans, model and real, I can't help it, but .......

 

The way you've got the FY connected at the LH end only to the outer circuit, and what I think is a lack of crossovers between the inner and outer circuits, will, I think, pose a few challenges when it comes to working 'out and back' from your terminus.

 

Apologies.

 

Kevin

 

PS: having yesterday read my son's school learning objectives for the summer term, I again doubt the sanity of what Mr Gove set in train ....... I could expand on this, but two hobby-horses in one posting might be two too many, or possibly too, too many.

[luckymucklebackit]

Talisman

 

After a lifetime of 'reading' track plans, model and real, I can't help it, but .......

 

The way you've got the FY connected at the LH end only to the outer circuit, and what I think is a lack of crossovers between the inner and outer circuits, will, I think, pose a few challenges when it comes to working 'out and back' from your terminus.

 

Apologies.

 

Kevin

 

PS: having yesterday read my son's school learning objectives for the summer term, I again doubt the sanity of what Mr Gove set in train ....... I could expand on this, but two hobby-horses in one posting might be two too many, or possibly too, too many.

 

There is a double slip at the station throat that provides a trailing crossover between the outer and inner loop, as per the original C.J. Freezer plan

 

Jim

[Nearholmer]

Ah, I see. Well, I don't actually, but I can guess where it is.

 

I have to do crude, old-fashioned, 0 scale; my eyes can't cope with drawings, or indeed anything else, smaller.

[hayfield]

The Average Enthusiast subtltle earned a lot of stick with smarmie comments about Railway Toddler etc, but in reality he quietly introduced RM's readers to some very fine modellers without a hint of the elitism that sometimes creeps into writing about fine scale.

 

I have stopped buying the more aloof publications, and have a subscription for the toddler, I do not see this nickname as offensive but as a term of endearment.  Too often we are all to quick to take offence especially where none is meant.

 

I look forward to receiving my copy through the post on the 2nd Tuesday of the month and have no problems with any names of endearment, in fact it brings a smile to my face.

[talisman56]

Talisman

 

After a lifetime of 'reading' track plans, model and real, I can't help it, but .......

 

The way you've got the FY connected at the LH end only to the outer circuit, and what I think is a lack of crossovers between the inner and outer circuits, will, I think, pose a few challenges when it comes to working 'out and back' from your terminus.

 

Apologies.

 

Kevin

 

PS: having yesterday read my son's school learning objectives for the summer term, I again doubt the sanity of what Mr Gove set in train ....... I could expand on this, but two hobby-horses in one posting might be two too many, or possibly too, too many.

 

The terminal to main line connection is at the left end of the junction station, and the inner terminal has a fairly complex set of connections to the main line, which aren't clear on the micro-sized image that appeared with my previous post (although if you click on the image, a larger version appears)...

 

 

 

Thanks for the comments, I'm still trying to decide whether it would be worth trying to get a link from the FY to the outer main line circuit at the rh end of the layout, or whether I can use it as is.

[St Enodoc]

That may well be true bécasse but when I see it referred to as "The Toddler" nowadays it's usually in a disparaging way implying that it's not aimed at "serious" modellers.

 

It's interesting how the meaning of the word "average" has changed over the years from suggesting the mainstream of modellers to those of only mediocre skills (mediocre having already changed its meaning to second rate) . It's a bit like Michael Gove saying that he expected schools to be above average "to be judged on making sure that children are on track and are not falling back-and, indeed, do better than the average". Had he said that he wanted all children to do better than the current average that would have been a worthwhile aim. 

David, I've always regarded it as an affectionate nickname, in the same vein as the late lamented Model Railway Destructor.

 

In Australia, the word "average" is usually taken to mean "distinctly below average".

[Pacific231G]

David, I've always regarded it as an affectionate nickname, in the same vein as the late lamented Model Railway Destructor.

 

In Australia, the word "average" is usually taken to mean "distinctly below average".

I think that depends on whose posts you're reading. Nicknames, can of course be affectionate, as the Great Way Round possibly was and the London Smashem and Turnover probably wasn't, or ironic like God's Wonderful Railway. I'd not heard Model Ralway Destructor but it's a very long time since it existed under that title. 

 

A good few years ago a friend of mine (deservedly) won a very large promotion and I always remember a particularly jealous colleague describing her as "very average" so the meaning of distinctly underwhelming is just the same in UK as in Australian English. Very average, in the disparaging sense, would have been a better description of his work. 

 

I have stopped buying the more aloof publications, and have a subscription for the toddler, I do not see this nickname as offensive but as a term of endearment.  Too often we are all to quick to take offence especially where none is meant.

 

I look forward to receiving my copy through the post on the 2nd Tuesday of the month and have no problems with any names of endearment, in fact it brings a smile to my face.

 

I'm just annoyed that all my local WH Smiths have stopped stocking Continental Modeller. I tend to buy magazines, sometimes even MRJ, casually based on their contents after browsing them on the shelves and CM makes the cut more often than most.

 

On nicknames I wasn't taking offence but have always felt that a certain disdain has too often left Cyril Freezer's contribution to the hobby, mainly as editor of RM, rather undervalued. I should say though that MRJ's own obituary tribute to him was fulsome and included aspects of that contribution not widely known.

 

 

 

.