RMweb Premium Popular Post Michael Edge Posted January 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2013 In view of the interest this loco provokes at exhibitions - usually along the lines of "what on earth is that?" - I am putting some details, photos and drawings on here. The origin of this is a diagram prepared at Horwich in 1923 as an alternative to the LMS Garratt, it was published, along with several other very interesting proposals, in "Chronicles of Steam" by E.S.Cox. Below is the drawing I made from this (many years ago, long before the CAD age) to build 49801. Those with long memories will have seen 49801 on "Leeds Victoria" and more recently on "Cwmafon" and "Herculaneum Dock". According to my records I finished this model in 1985. The drawing office kept the wheelbase to a minimum in order to fit on a 60' turntable, it would almost certainly have been unstable at the front end and Cox was of the opinion that a pony truck would have been added if it had been built. For my purposes fitting on a 60' turntable was a distinct advantage so I left it as it was. The tender in the drawing is an extended version of that fitted to the L&Y Dreadnought 4-6-0 but in view of what happened to the Crabs Ithought this was unlikely to have been built. The standard Fowler 3500 gal. tender looked even more ridiculous with the Mallet but I had a spare 4000 gal. tender from an original Princess and this looked just about right with 49801. Minimum radius on my layouts is normally 28", 49801 will get round this but the throwover of the boiler looks rather excessive. I made no attempt to fit the steam and exhaust pipes at the time but I have thought about adding them since, if only to hide the front unit's worm gear - clearly visible above. The boiler is supported on a conventional saddle on the rear unit and on a slide on the front unit. The loco is LH drive but the leading unit's reach rod is duplicated each side from a rocker on the rear unit rod. None of this was shown in the original diagram - all my own design but based on Horwich practice of the time. With the body removed this is how it works. A large KTM motor fits easily in the huge firebox and drives the leading axle of the rear unit directly by a Romford gearset (no gearboxes in those days). On the end of this is a cardan shaft to the leading axle of the front unit. Cylinders were made from the white metal castings which used to be available from W&H, motion from Jamieson parts. Frames would have been sawn out of hard brass sheet at this time - about .015" thickness. Close up of cardan shaft The articulated joint was made as shown in the drawing, designed to be very rigid but I had to slacken it a bit in view of the total lack of springing or compensation in the frames. If I was building it now it would probably be compensated. The view from underneath, wheels are very old Romfords, uninsulated mazak on one side, it mostly picks up from the tender though. OO gauge leaves plenty of room for the motion. Boiler unit and front unit footplate. There are side control springs on the front unit slide, the lump of brass between the springs locates in the slot in the underside of the boiler when assembled. This shows why I split the reversing mechanism, a single weighshaft at the front end would not have been possible. BR did something similar much later on the Crosti 9F. Close up photos show off Barry O's excellent weathering. I hope this has all been of interest. Michael Edge 45 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2013 Now that really is a bit of 'creative' building Mike. What a beast. P @ 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I saw it when we were next to Herculaneum Dock at Leeds a few years ago. It is a beast and certainly catches the eye. An excellent piece of work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 That's magnificent, bonkers (especially without the front pony truck), but magnificent. Adam 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 31, 2013 I really enjoy learning about projects like this - real and model. To stir things up a bit, if Tony Wright thinks that we should all be modelling prototype locations, I wonder what he makes of this? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hi Mike, I love it! But then I do have a fondness for the strange & exotic! I admire the way it really looks like a Horwich product, well done Sir. Cheers, John E. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hi Michael, That really is an impressive beastie, beautifully engineered too. I would love to see if you or anyone see out there has ventured into the realm of locomotives that never were. I have seen the 'Hawksworth Pacific' and the 2-10-2 GWR heavy (seems a little bit of an understatement!) freight tank with the King(?) boiler. There is the fantastical notion I saw or read in a book once of a 28XX Garrett! Now, where's my razor saw? All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Attached the H&B Kitson Meyer version, someone, may like to try their hand. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted January 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2013 Nice shots of the Hammer - hope its all back together for Preston! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Modeller Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Attached the H&B Kitson Meyer version, someone, may like to try their hand. I assume the April date of the magazine has some significance? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Micheal, what would be the best method of construction for a modeller today, hoping to create the same proposal? How for example would you calculate the scale of the drawing in Cox's Book? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 1, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2013 At the time (no date on my drawing but it was at least 35 years ago) I made measurements on the drawing in the book and used one of those new-fangled pocket calculators to get them to 4mm scale. Before that I had used a slide rule, I've still got it somewhere but forgotten how to use it. If I was doing it again now I would scan the drawing and import it into Turbocad as a picture on it's own layer. This can then be scaled, using a vertical and a horizontal dimension (reproductions of drawings rarely have the same scale in both planes - always check this) and rotated if necessary. Then I simply trace the drawing on screen, checking all dimensions as I go. This often involves quite a lot of design work, especially with a diagram like this, full GA or pipe and rod drawings are easier as they were usually drawn more accurately. All drawings are liable to differ from what was actually built - some have pencil notes on them to indicate differences from what the drawing office thought. To reassure Barry, 49801 is back in one piece and will be working at Preston next month. From time to time I've looked at a lot of these "might have beens", many of them don't look very practical, a lot have more wheels added and an elongated boiler/smokebox. The mallet's boiler looks well proportioned to me although there may have been some problems with the ashpan. Two more in the same book look very attractive - a Stanier 2-8-4T based on the 8F and the 4-6-4 enlargement of the Duchess. Michael Edge 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted February 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2013 So when's the kit being released Michael? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 So when's the kit being released Michael? These outlandish "might-have-beens" weren't unknown abroad either. You may remember Märklin bringing out a gigantic HO Br.53 in the 1970s, representing a wartime design which Borsig in Berlin had allegedly started to build. - a European 2-6-8-0 would have been an intriguing prospect though perhaps too big even for the German national network as it then was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) At the time (no date on my drawing but it was at least 35 years ago) I made measurements on the drawing in the book and used one of those new-fangled pocket calculators to get them to 4mm scale. Before that I had used a slide rule, I've still got it somewhere but forgotten how to use it. If I was doing it again now I would scan the drawing and import it into Turbocad as a picture on it's own layer. This can then be scaled, using a vertical and a horizontal dimension (reproductions of drawings rarely have the same scale in both planes - always check this) and rotated if necessary. Then I simply trace the drawing on screen, checking all dimensions as I go. This often involves quite a lot of design work, especially with a diagram like this, full GA or pipe and rod drawings are easier as they were usually drawn more accurately. All drawings are liable to differ from what was actually built - some have pencil notes on them to indicate differences from what the drawing office thought. To reassure Barry, 49801 is back in one piece and will be working at Preston next month. From time to time I've looked at a lot of these "might have beens", many of them don't look very practical, a lot have more wheels added and an elongated boiler/smokebox. The mallet's boiler looks well proportioned to me although there may have been some problems with the ashpan. Two more in the same book look very attractive - a Stanier 2-8-4T based on the 8F and the 4-6-4 enlargement of the Duchess. Michael Edge Micheal, how would a modern articulated drive shaft work? I think I can imagine some kind of ball and socket arrangement to transfer the motor power. Edited February 1, 2013 by scots region Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlswood Nob Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 G'day all What a great build. I read of this loco many years ago, but never dreamed that drawings existed or that somebody would build a model. Its great, and would make a companion to a LMS Garratt. Earlswood Nob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 1, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2013 Micheal, how would a modern articulated drive shaft work? I think I can imagine some kind of ball and socket arrangement to transfer the motor power. I don't think the cardan shaft would be any different, I wouldn't use such a big motor now and the driving axles would have gearboxes. You can buy u/js from more than one supplier or they are quite easy to make from tube and 7mm handrail pillars. The main difference now would be that I would not build the drive units rigid, personally I would compensate them, others prefer springing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 ...The mallet's boiler looks well proportioned to me although there may have been some problems with the ashpan. Two more in the same book look very attractive - a Stanier 2-8-4T based on the 8F ... The ashpan and draughting is for sure in trouble on a grate of the size implied by the boiler design. Jiggling the wheelbase to allow a bit more ashpan space by having the rear chassis assymetric; moving the second driver forward slightly, third driver back a little, a possible fix. Lack of a front pony truck would have meant severe limitation on speed; the US experience of the exciting snaking that was possible once speed got up to something like 20mph with this configuration saw them very rapidly use front trucks - and rear trucks - to mitigate the instability. Now the alternative version would be the same boiler on a 2-8-2 chassis. Just screen off the chassis from view and the topsides look very P1... The Stanier 2-8-4T just 'builds itself'. The 26' loco chassis of the 8F substitutes for the 25'6 wheelbase of the 2-6 element of the Stanier 2-6-4T, with the foot less driving wheel diameter bringing the rear of the flange of the 4'8" wheel to the same position as that of the 5'8" wheel. I knew a guy who had one which operated on an exhiition layout, and he reckoned on getting one or two 'challenges' a day at most. The machine just looked so 'right' it passed for the genuine article in his opinion. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 The ashpan and draughting is for sure in trouble on a grate of the size implied by the boiler design. Jiggling the wheelbase to allow a bit more ashpan space by having the rear chassis assymetric; moving the second driver forward slightly, third driver back a little, a possible fix. Lack of a front pony truck would have meant severe limitation on speed; the US experience of the exciting snaking that was possible once speed got up to something like 20mph with this configuration saw them very rapidly use front trucks - and rear trucks - to mitigate the instability. Now the alternative version would be the same boiler on a 2-8-2 chassis. Just screen off the chassis from view and the topsides look very P1... The Stanier 2-8-4T just 'builds itself'. The 26' loco chassis of the 8F substitutes for the 25'6 wheelbase of the 2-6 element of the Stanier 2-6-4T, with the foot less driving wheel diameter bringing the rear of the flange of the 4'8" wheel to the same position as that of the 5'8" wheel. I knew a guy who had one which operated on an exhiition layout, and he reckoned on getting one or two 'challenges' a day at most. The machine just looked so 'right' it passed for the genuine article in his opinion. The Hughes (Horwich) locomotive proposals listed in the following link did include a 2-8-2 , Garratt 2-6-6-2 , 4-6-2 as well as the Mallett as modelled by Mike. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67071-what-could-have-ended-the-midlands-small-engine-policy/?p=928196 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted February 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2013 The ashpan and draughting is for sure in trouble on a grate of the size implied by the boiler design. Jiggling the wheelbase to allow a bit more ashpan space by having the rear chassis assymetric; moving the second driver forward slightly, third driver back a little, a possible fix. Lack of a front pony truck would have meant severe limitation on speed; the US experience of the exciting snaking that was possible once speed got up to something like 20mph with this configuration saw them very rapidly use front trucks - and rear trucks - to mitigate the instability. Now the alternative version would be the same boiler on a 2-8-2 chassis. Just screen off the chassis from view and the topsides look very P1... The Stanier 2-8-4T just 'builds itself'. The 26' loco chassis of the 8F substitutes for the 25'6 wheelbase of the 2-6 element of the Stanier 2-6-4T, with the foot less driving wheel diameter bringing the rear of the flange of the 4'8" wheel to the same position as that of the 5'8" wheel. I knew a guy who had one which operated on an exhiition layout, and he reckoned on getting one or two 'challenges' a day at most. The machine just looked so 'right' it passed for the genuine article in his opinion. It works allright in 4mm form and it can pull a house down - always handy to have when someone sneaks an extra full steel or loaded coal wagon into a train! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvian Tennant Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I've just found this thread and *handshakes* wow, well done. That is an amazing beast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 The Stanier 2-8-4T just 'builds itself'. The 26' loco chassis of the 8F substitutes for the 25'6 wheelbase of the 2-6 element of the Stanier 2-6-4T, with the foot less driving wheel diameter bringing the rear of the flange of the 4'8" wheel to the same position as that of the 5'8" wheel. I knew a guy who had one which operated on an exhiition layout, and he reckoned on getting one or two 'challenges' a day at most. The machine just looked so 'right' it passed for the genuine article in his opinion. It popped into my head last night that '8ATT' bears more than a passing resemblance to the proposal, I wonder... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaselfish Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 49801 is great. In response to Castle, here's some more models of locos that never were: http://www.gwr.org.uk/galmeadows1.html (scroll down for a GWR Pacific on this link) http://www.gwr.org.uk/galfox1.html http://www.gwr.org.uk/galfox2.html http://www.gwr.org.uk/galparsons1.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwinian Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 49801 is great. In response to Castle, here's some more models of locos that never were: http://www.gwr.org.uk/galmeadows1.html (scroll down for a GWR Pacific on this link) http://www.gwr.org.uk/galfox1.html http://www.gwr.org.uk/galfox2.html http://www.gwr.org.uk/galparsons1.html I do like some of these neverwozzers. Superb modelling by all concerned , that Harwich mallet is a wonderfully eccentric beast. Can't help wondering if even Hornby could get the GWR 2-10-2T around radius 2 curves . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
69843 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Only just stumbled across this one. Michael, that is one locomotive of phenomenal proportions that you have built up there. As has been said many times, 'If it looks right, it is right' and this is one of the best examples of that I have seen yet. On to the GWR proposals, in MR140 (I think) there was a drawing of a King Garrett, which I roughed out on MS Paint out of the Hornby King a while back (King shown for comparison). Also, I remember seeing someone of this parish (S.A.C. Martin if I recall correctly), making the GWR Cathedral in BR Express Passenger Blue. A looker it certainly was! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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