Southern Coaches from old Triang Clerestory's

[clarkeeboy56]

I'm planning ahead for when I eventually lay some track down (hopefully that won't be too long!). I'm hoping to build a typical(!) branch line in Southern Region days, plenty of loco's to choose from, and I'm been busily collecting some over the last few years. Now we are quite well served with mainline coaches,what with Hornby Maunsell's, Bachman Bullied's and of course both company's Mk 1's...but we're not too well served with suburban or branch line stock.  Now research has shown me that most of this stock was old coaches from pre-grouping days..and thats half of the appeal....

 

So how best to go about getting some rolling stock? I'm aware of the kits available ..Roxey/Comet etc., but I feel that these may be a bit out of my skills set (and pocket range!) at the moment.  So I've been looking at alternatives, and that brings me to the old Triang Clerestory coaches.

 

I've manage to get a hold of two 1966 copies of the Railway Modeller, describing how to build some ex- LBSCR stock (as used on the IoW in this instance) which is most appealling. These mainly deal with a "Cut-and-Shut" type operation, with new plastic card roofs, but a decent 5 - coach rake is possible.  I'd need about 7 or 8 coaches in both guard and composite variations to achieve this.  I'm not looking for 100% accuracy here though, but would like them reasonable accuarate dimensionally. I'm aware that the Triang bogies are a scale 6" too long, but as my track is a scale 6" too narrow - I can live with those sort of discrepancies!

 

I'm therefore in a bit of a quest in buying up these items on E-bay....there are some at reasonable prices, and I'm slowly build a collection up.

 

I'm also wondering about other SR-constituency stock - particularly of the birdcage variety and certain Push-pull variations.

 

I've ordered Mike King's book and will use that as the main reference point.

 

Has anyone else on here tried this method, and does anyone know of any articles on these conversions?

 

Any help/pointers/thoughts  appreciated  

Edited February 4, 2013 by clarkeeboy56

[burgundy]

Yes, I remember those articles well. Somewhere in the loft there are some mutilated clerestory coaches which were never completed - nor are they ever likely to be! I gave up at the point where the "invisible join" in the paneling resisted all my various attempts to make it invisible. I put it down as a learning experience.

I have no doubt that others, who were further up the learning curve when they attempted this, would have been more successful. For me, it was one of those blind alleys.

Best wishes

Eric

[ianwales]

Hi

 

I think there were about 8 articles in total, including one to make a Restaurant car and was the only conversion to  make use of the clerestory roof. It may be worth contacting the Semg Yahoo group fro more info on these conversions and the articles.

 

Ian

[DS239]

Hello Clarkeeboy56,

 

The Terry Gough articles on bashing the Tri-ang clerestories are spread over a few issues of the RM,I've got them filed away somewhere but can't lay my hands on them at the moment,apart from No.8 which is the LSWR restaurant car in the Feb '68 issue.

 

IIRC he covered LBSCR and LSWR non-corridors and some LSWR corridor stock.

 

East Kent Models had the Brake 3rd bodies as spares.

 

SE&CR birdcages are a no-no as the paneling is totally different.

 

Where geographically is your layout to be set? as this will have some bearing on the stock used..

 

By the '50's the LBSC stock had gone to the IOW, although I think the P-P sets converted from A/C stock have the right compartment spacing to suit the Tri-ang coaches and lasted on the mainland to the late 50's, I don't think TG covered those,but could be converted using his methods.

 

LSWR stock is probably most suitable.

 

Hope this helps,If I can dig up more info I'll add it later..

[BernardTPM]

You could also look at Ratio coach sides, not available at the time the articles were written. Certainly the GWR 4-wheelers, with the same style of panelling as the Tri-ang coaches are available separately. The Midland non-corridor stock may also be useful - the wider waist panelling makes it closer to LSWR in appearance. You may also find it easier to hide joins if you join along the edge of the doors rather than cutting through the centre of panels.

[Tim Chambers]

I'll probably be hung drawn and quartered for this heresy, but one of my most-enjoyed projects was simply to discard the clerestory roof on two old tri ang coaches and replace them with carved about "conventional " roofs (rooves?), repaint in the correct green, rewheel and weather-despite the obvious inaccuracies, they look really convincing.Must say, close study of plans in Mike King's "Push Pull" book of LSWR arc roof stock revealed I wasn't that far adrift! 

[clarkeeboy56]

Many thanks to everyone for replying. Plenty of food for thought there!

 

Just to touch on a few of the issues raised: First of all I'm not seeking 100% accuracy here, but I'd like them to be at least recognisable as what they are meant to be! Of course that will mean different things to different modellers! I probably won't worry about the accuracy of the bogies  for example , so could probably leave them as is, apart from changing to metal wheels. 

 

The location of the layout? Well that has to be a bit vague, somewhere between Margate in the East, Ventnor in the South, Kensington Olympia in the North and somewhere on the withered arm to the West!! I have, and aim to have a collection of loco's from the whole of the Region. My 'branch' will most likely only need 2-3 locos at a session, so I can be a bit flexible with my location ..(that may even include an odd session moving the location to the North/North East of London, so I can run my B12's,N2 etc!)

 

My aim is really to run representative stock from the whole of the region, but not necessarily at the same time, so a five coach LBSCR rake pulled by a LSWR O2 from Kernow's (as on the IoW) is on my list, but not at the same time as a Maunsell Push Pull set pulled by a H class ...

 

Thats the plan anyway! 

 

I've been looking at some of the Ratio kits on E-bay, so that may be an option.

 

As I 've said I've ordered Mike Kings Southern Coaches Illustrated book and his Southern Push-Pull coach book, so I'm really looking forward to doing some research here..

 

Thanks again to all -it greatly apprefciated!

[Middlesea John]

I've got the old Terry Gough articles and I did manage to produce a very rough and ready Ironclad brake 2nd which now has bogies from one of the old Hornby Gresley coaches which I intend to fiddle about with to make them look more like LSWR bogies.

Slightly off subject, the most important branch line coach for me (and I suspect many others including Clarkee who started this section) is the famous 10-compartment all third / second.  Does anyone know a way of producing this from existing RTR models ?  The windows are very close together so probably the clerestories will be no good. The old Tri-ang suburbans certainly aren't.

[Gilwell Park]

 

Do you mean something like this.  The furthest coach is a Triang brake with a Roxey Mouldings roof.  The middle is the compartment section of a brake joined to part of the first class coach, I must see where the missing 1 went.The nearest is a brake with an extended guard section taken from the bit left over from the composite conversion.  Rooves are Roxey Mouldings, bogies are MK1 with the tie bar removed. Not sure where the ventilators came from. They don't look bad behind a T9 although the original short brake really needs extending to match the other.

 

Roger

[Bulleidnutter]

They definetly look like a LSW 3 set. Shame I dont have the room nor the time to go for something like this myself!

[clarkeeboy56]

DSCF3468a.jpg

 

Do you mean something like this.  The furthest coach is a Triang brake with a Roxey Mouldings roof.  The middle is the compartment section of a brake joined to part of the first class coach, I must see where the missing 1 went.The nearest is a brake with an extended guard section taken from the bit left over from the composite conversion.  Rooves are Roxey Mouldings, bogies are MK1 with the tie bar removed. Not sure where the ventilators came from. They don't look bad behind a T9 although the original short brake really needs extending to match the other.

 

Roger

Yes, thats exactly the type of effect I'm looking for. Many thanks for posting....I have my first coach ready to hack about, so will need a few more before I get cracking.  

[sparks]

Do you mean something like this.  The furthest coach is a Triang brake with a Roxey Mouldings roof.  The middle is the compartment section of a brake joined to part of the first class coach, I must see where the missing 1 went.The nearest is a brake with an extended guard section taken from the bit left over from the composite conversion.  Rooves are Roxey Mouldings, bogies are MK1 with the tie bar removed. Not sure where the ventilators came from. They don't look bad behind a T9 although the original short brake really needs extending to match the other.

 

Roger

 

This looks great! I've always been a firm believer in creating a believeable and recognisable model rather than counting rivets.

 

It makes me wonder if this method could be used to create a cheap and cheerful 2-NOL or 3-SUB though - has anybody tried mating the Roxey Mouldings driving ends (http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/407/4emu26-8ft-driving-ends/) to the Triang coaches...?

 

Stuart

Edited February 19, 2013 by sparks

[Guest Belgian]

You'll be doing a truly prototypical Southern thing by 'cutting and shutting'. Most of the non-corridor wooden stock that survived until the 1950s was old 48' or so stock extended with additional compartments and fitted to standard Southern

58' underframes. Admittedly, the Southern didn't use old Triang stock for the conversions!!

 

JE

Edited February 19, 2013 by Belgian

[sparks]

You'll be doing a truly prototypical Southern thing by 'cutting and shutting'. Most of the non-corridor wooden stock that survived until the 1950s was old 48' or so stock extended with additional compartments and fitted to standard Southern

58' underframes. Admittedly, the Southern didn't use old Triang stock for the conversions!!

 

JE

 

My thoughts exactly! On closer inspection though the Roxey ends are just the ends and you'd still be missing the driver's doors and guard's compartment.

 

S.

[uax6]

I've beening scan archiving my mates RM's and I have a few more of these articles if you want them.

 

Pm me

 

Andy

[sparks]

This rather useful page lists all the Railway Modeller articles, along with a whole host of other goodies:-

http://thegardnerfamily.org/magindex/06.html

 

Stuart

[uax6]

Oh, I forgot to say, the archive does have a lot of the plans pages from the old MRC which consentrated on the Southern coaches for years. I have a fairly good set of them scanned too.

 

Andy G

[clarkeeboy56]

Oh, I forgot to say, the archive does have a lot of the plans pages from the old MRC which consentrated on the Southern coaches for years. I have a fairly good set of them scanned too.

 

Andy G

PM inbound....

[Colin parks]

Hi clarkeeboy56,

 

Just seen this topic and I must say those coaches of Roger's do look very convincing.  In fact, the method used could be developed to make a 'quick' 3 SUB EMU. (But the I'm biased that way!)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[sparks]

Hi clarkeeboy56,

 

Just seen this topic and I must say those coaches of Roger's do look very convincing.  In fact, the method used could be developed to make a 'quick' 3 SUB EMU. (But the I'm biased that way!)

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin

 

I've been looking at this as well (see above) using the Roxey ends, but I'm a bit stumped about what to use for the roof - any thoughts?

 

Stuart

[Gilwell Park]

Hi Colin

 

I've been looking at this as well (see above) using the Roxey ends, but I'm a bit stumped about what to use for the roof - any thoughts?

 

Stuart

Hi Stuart.

 

I used Roxey Mouldings roofs.  They come oversize and have to be trimmed for length and width. I ordered 4 for 3 coaches just in case. To get the width right I first rebuilt the ends to the correct shape and offered the roof up till it fitted then marked the ends of the roof where the cut was required. I then made a cutting jig with two lengths of Meccano green angle, clamped it tight and cut along the lenght. Surprisingly it worked quite well and I still have my spare roof.  Measure and mark 4 times, cut once.

 

Roger.

[sparks]

Hi Stuart.

 

I used Roxey Mouldings roofs. 

 

Thanks Roger - I had missed that in your post (despite you saying it twice!). Are the Roxey roofs plastic or brass...?

 

Thanks

 

Stuart

[Gilwell Park]

Thanks Roger - I had missed that in your post (despite you saying it twice!). Are the Roxey roofs plastic or brass...?

 

Thanks

 

Stuart

Stuart

 

They are white plastic. Take care with the long cuts.

 

Roger.

[pete_mcfarlane]

They are vacuum formed plastic - a bit like some aircraft kits. I've had problems with them in the past, so tend to build them around a plasticard core. Take a look at the instructions on the Southwark Bridge Models website on how they advise people to use their roofs.

Edited March 18, 2013 by pete_mcfarlane

[sparks]

Thanks guys

 

It's a long term project, but it's good to have a clear idea of how to do it. I've been looking around for some donor coaches at a few swapmeets, but over here it seems they can go for upto $60 each!