Nameplates, how original are they?

[Coldgunner]

I got thinking about loco nameplates earlier on today, so wish to post a simple question, how original are they?

 

I initially thought about Flying Scotsman's. I doubt the plates fitted to her now are the same ones fitted in the 20's. I also have a picture of two held at the NRM for Papyrus and Great Northern. Alan Pegler fitted red ones, were these the same ones but just painted? Hor original is the NRM collection?

 

I then got thinking about the A4 plates...

 

As we know some were painted red, some were in chrome and some gold. Can I also draw to attention the record plaque from Mallard. There is one on display in the collection that has a red background, like some A4 nameplates, why is there another set? Are the ones on the preserved six replica's or 'real' ones?

 

I seem to remember a video somewhere of a private collection with other real gems, like Cock 'O' the North, and is there any knowledge of what happened to the 'British Enterprise' and (if it existed) 'Pegasus' plates from 10000?

 

This post isn't any kind of accusation, and I hope it doesn't read like that. I'm just rather facinated by nameplates and what they mean to people.

[Black Sheep]

I recall something about a set of scotsman plates having been faked and sold at auction so it's possible something like this has happened a few times.

[t-b-g]

The private collection you mentioned may be the one based at the Doncaster Grammar School. They certainly have a huge collection of railway bits, including some highly interesting nameplates.

 

I arranged to have a brass full size replica nameplate cast for a friend once and visited the "Procast" foundry to collect it. The place was littered with new plates but also with some original wooden patterns used for casting the plates (such as the LMS "Coronation"). So, to add to the question, is a new plate, cast from the original wooden pattern, a replica, an unused duplicate or something else altogether?

 

I would be quite surprised if many preserved locos carry their original plates. They are just too valuable and of course many plates were removed at withdrawal and sold off, so that when the loco went into preservation, the plates didn't come with it. All the "Barry" locos would come into that category.

 

You are right, it is a fascinating subject.

[durham light infantry]

Having lived near the old North Road works until a couple of years ago, you hear some stories. There are supposed to be numerous "Darlington" plates off the B17, and "British Enterprise" has also been seen. Bearing in mind that North Road used "Durham School" as a boot scraper, these 'Replicas' were regarded as little more than ornaments.

 

Mike

[BR60103]

I read an article about sculptures (the artistic ones) where more bronzes had been cast from the original moulds/patterns after the artist (was it Ridin?) had died. There was question about the authenticity/legitimacy/legality of these statues.

 

Would the works have cast extra nameplates for those directors honoured with a namesake?

[D1059]

While lineside at the GCR last year I witnessed a heated discussion between a couple and another gentleman regarding nameplates on the collectors 'circuit' - the gist of it was that its a minefield and that there are many outright fakes in circulation as well as plates that could be described as genuine copies which are hard if not impossible to tell from a real plate that has adorned a locomotive.

 

STEVE

['CHARD]

Not sure about the steam era, but in relatively recent history, there would often be a couple of extra plates cast to accompany a loco naming.  One for presentation (frequently) to the organisation or event being honoured.  In certain cases the sponsoring organisation such as the RoSCo may also retain one for display at its premises.

Edited February 6, 2013 by 'CHARD

[Coldgunner]

Is there a picture of the British Enterprise plate?

Edited February 6, 2013 by Coldgunner

[jwealleans]

The lettering on the A3 plates was changed during the lifetime of the LNER and the plates replaced so those on 4472 aren't the originals.  I believe the ones she carries in service are replicas but the originals are held by the NRM.

 

The nameplates on 4498 were not replicas, at least not into the 1980s.  They spent two years under my parents bed while the loco was overhauled at Carnforth.

[D1059]

The lettering on the A3 plates was changed during the lifetime of the LNER and the plates replaced so those on 4472 aren't the originals.  I believe the ones she carries in service are replicas but the originals are held by the NRM.

 

The nameplates on 4498 were not replicas, at least not into the 1980s.  They spent two years under my parents bed while the loco was overhauled at Carnforth.

 

Not original, but if carried by the loco, even in preservation they then have a provenance and a value above straight reproductions - it all gets a bit complicated

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

How about this for original name plates? The ones that came from Australia with Pendennis Castle are more 'original' than No. 4079 herself! How does this work then?

 

The ones carried by Pendennis Castle were made when she was built in 1924 but the letters on them date back to the Pendennis Castle of the Duke class No. 3253 built in 1895. We can tell that as they are made of solid brass unlike the more 'modern' ones in the collection. As a result they weigh a great deal more than standard GWR name plates! The names were removed from any previous engines that had a name that could lead to it being confused with the GWR's shiny new Castle Class locomotives. As a result, there were a few good castle names going spare. So being frugal, the GWR put the letters on new backing plate and away went the new engines....

 

As No. 3253 was rebuilt into Bulldog No. 3300 the letters have been carried by 3 different classes of GWR locomotive. This must be fairly rare in preservation!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Castle]

I would be quite surprised if many preserved locos carry their original plates. They are just too valuable and of course many plates were removed at withdrawal and sold off, so that when the loco went into preservation, the plates didn't come with it. All the "Barry" locos would come into that category.

Hi TBG,

 

You are correct in thinking this. Didcot has a few locos that have their original plates as they were bought out of service but very few still carry them. Name plates are far more vulnerable to the light fingered as they can't be fixed in quite the same way that you can fix a cab side plate on. Sadly, No. 4079 will not be carrying those afore mentioned name plates in normal service as they are simply too valuable these days! They are museum pieces in their own right...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[geoffers]

When I was posted to the late, lamented RAF Coltishall in Norfolk there were two gate guardians. One of these was a Hurricane and there was a BoB nameplate of Hurricane underneath her. In the crewroom of 41 Sqn there was another BoB nameplate of 41 Squadron. To this day I do not know if either was an orginal or a copy. And I do not know where they may have ended up. But I am curious to know.

[Bristol_Rich]

How many pairs of Falcon's falcon crests do we reckon are knocking about?

[Forester]

What a cynical age we live in!

 

There was very little interest in loco nameplates as objects until the end of steam. Even then they we sold off for a few pounds. Sky-high prices for loco nameplates is a relatively recent phenomenon. No-one would have bothered copying them until recently, other than perhaps the very few famous ones.

 

The Merchant Navy nameplates had three crests made: one for each side of the loco (flags flying in the correct direction) and one for a coffee table given to the shipping line magnate who named the loco. Nearly all of these delicate crests survived with minor touch-ups, let alone the huge cast nameplates. The nameplates were (are) mighty tough objects. There would have been no reason to copy them while they were basically of little more than scrap value. They survived even quite serious accidents, Lewisham (B of B) for one, Hither Green another.

 

In preservation it is different. The plates are now sought-after and easily removed so it makes sense to copy them and sell the originals while the value is high (will they always fetch high prices?).

 

I doubt there are many "fake" nameplates out there, even now.

[jwoch65]

I have the original patterns for locos built/named by the LMS and BR at Crewe works. The LMS brass used is the same as the current British Standard so its possible to make new plates which are virtually the same as originals. The only difference is that they haven't been carried by the loco!

[big jim]

When my dad had his dinorwic quarry hunslet 'alice' someone gave him the original nameplate from it from which he had a pair of new ones cast to fit to the loco

 

the original is safely on display in his house

 

In a similar vain to nameplates, i was looking at a scrap 08 in bescot the other day and thinking about flamecut numbers, with the amount of repaints and liveries these days would privitisation era 'flamecuts' be as collectable now as they are for locos scrapped in the 80s, i mean the ews livery 08 had its current number on the fuel tank side whereas originally it would have been on the cabside, locos scrapped back in BR blue days at the likes of gic berry tended to have numbers in the same place most of of their BR blue lives which to me makes them more 'authentic' as it were, ive certainly seen flamecuts with previous numbers still visible below the last one

Edited February 8, 2016 by big jim

[davefrk]

I know a guy who ended up through, IIRC, his uncle working at the depot a name and number plate for class 47 - Great Western. They were made from fibreglass for the photos handed out at the naming ceremony and then replaced with the actual brass plates. We researched them for him and found there were differences in a couple of the letter shapes and this could be seen on the naming and later photos so they were definately on the loco. He recently had them valued for sale but was offered just buttons for them, they are still lying in his flat.

The fibreglass plates were up in the depot office till it closed and presumably were acquired by this guys uncle.

I can ask if they are still for sale if anyone might be interested.

 

Dave Franks.

[meil]

This is like the old debate in car circles, about starting with a genuine Bugatti radiator cap. If I reconstruct the car around that is it a genuine Bugatti at the end of it's restoration?

[PenrithBeacon]

I believe that 'Scotsman''s nameplates were retained by its former owner when the locomotive was sold to the NRM. However, because he had broken the link with the engine and had no further proof that they were the originals the nameplates are regarded as a little iffy on the collectors market.

 

Provenance is all!

 

Regards

[chaz]

Could someone explain to me why any of this matters?

 

Surely it's a bit like stamp collecting - a stamp is a tiny scrap of paper - once cancelled it has no real value, until people start collecting them.

OK, a name plate has scrap value (especially if it's brass) but otherwise...

 

4472 has certainly had two sets of plates. The originals, fitted when it was built, proved a bit too flimsy and heavier replacements were cast by the LNER. Whether the ones now fitted are these or modern replacements (with criminals in mind) matters not a jot. There are a lot of other bits on the engine which are new replacement parts (or at least I hope so given the amonut of money that has been spent) - why should the plates be any different?

 

When I last visited the NRM I looked at the nameplates mounted on the wall. I couldn't tell if they were "real" or replicas. I didn't care, it didn't matter. Let the collectors worry about authenticity, the rest of us can just enjoy our heritage.

 

Chaz

[Boris]

Chaz, I think its a continuation of the discussion over originality of parts on preserved locos, the similar discussion on another part of the forum got rather heated.  I don't really care either but some people feel that locos in preservation (working or not) should be as close to their original build as possible, and feel that way quite strongly.

 

However in the 21st century and the decreasing respect for other people property coupled with a growing black market for valuable/rare railway relics (yes really, including parts being stolen to order for collectors or people restoring similar vehicles) there is a VERY strong argument for having replica nameplates on locos and the originals in secure storage somewhere.  I can think of a number of preserved railways that have done exactly that already.

[Dunsignalling]

When I was posted to the late, lamented RAF Coltishall in Norfolk there were two gate guardians. One of these was a Hurricane and there was a BoB nameplate of Hurricane underneath her. In the crewroom of 41 Sqn there was another BoB nameplate of 41 Squadron. To this day I do not know if either was an orginal or a copy. And I do not know where they may have ended up. But I am curious to know.

After withdrawal, one nameplate (and badge where applicable) from each West Country loco named after a town, was given (or at least offered) to the local council. 34018's set (including the 'West Country Class' scroll) still adorns the front of the balcony in Axminster Guildhall.

 

AFAIK a similar practice was followed with those RAF Squadrons still extant at the time of withdrawal so '41 Squadron' would have got a set.

 

There are numerous possible explanations for the presence of the 'Hurricane' plate. Perhaps a sometime CO of the base/squadron took a personal interest in such matters or someone in a place of influence in BR had served there in Hurricanes. Alternatively, '41' or Coltishall might have had an especial connection to the Hurricane that gave them priority over others to receive one.

 

Those in possession of donated nameplates (from various classes) were often slow to realise how valuable they had become. More than one well-known football club owned a B17 plate that was supported over the front entrance by a few large wood screws into relatively recent times. 

 

John

Edited February 8, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[chaz]

Chaz, I think its a continuation of the discussion over originality of parts on preserved locos, the similar discussion on another part of the forum got rather heated.  I don't really care either but some people feel that locos in preservation (working or not) should be as close to their original build as possible, and feel that way quite strongly.

 

However in the 21st century and the decreasing respect for other people property coupled with a growing black market for valuable/rare railway relics (yes really, including parts being stolen to order for collectors or people restoring similar vehicles) there is a VERY strong argument for having replica nameplates on locos and the originals in secure storage somewhere.  I can think of a number of preserved railways that have done exactly that already.

 

Quite so. You would agree with me (I think) that providing a replacement replica is good enough that you can't tell the difference then it matters not one jot.

 

I'm very much against discussions on the forum getting "rather heated". Other people may well disagree with us and set great store by originality. They are fully entitled to their view and to express it. Vive la difference!

 

One thing I would say is that criminality is nothing new. "decreasing respect for other people property"? Recent "revelations" about the awful things that the spivs and parasites got up to during the Blitz in London suggests that our society is no worse than it was!

 

Chaz

[Dunsignalling]

This is like the old debate in car circles, about starting with a genuine Bugatti radiator cap. If I reconstruct the car around that is it a genuine Bugatti at the end of it's restoration?

Simples. If all the rest consists of replica parts, then it's a replica Bugatti with a genuine radiator cap!

 

However, unlike old cars, many of which still contain a goodly portion of the original, the way that railway locomotives were maintained and many were subsequently acquired as scrapyard hulks for 'preservation' means that most are 'bitzas' constructed from several class members and others are, to a substantial degree, replicas.

 

Mechanically speaking, authenticity is thus a matter of specification rather than content. Nameplates are a bit different but, IMHO anyone who leaves a set worth maybe £50,000 lying around attached to the loco (unless, perhaps, it's in the NRM) needs his head testing.

 

John

Edited February 8, 2016 by Dunsignalling