Lynton & Barnstaple OO9 Loco from Heljan

[Stevelewis]

The loco (s) were ordered ages ago from a Major mail order supplier, I am housebound and cannot get around shops or shows. Heljan obviously have no concept of a Queue, or ordered deliver once in stock, but " a barrowboy sales mentality". If they had waited another few weeks this would not have happened, it can only be put down to them rushing into selling any they can with no concept of customer care.

Stephen

 

I think  your  problem  needs  to  be  directed  to  the  retailer  not  Heljan,  I don't  think  any  manufacturer  would  wait  until  they  had   made a complete  batch of something  with a largish number  of  units, before  distributing  to  the  trade,  that  would  not  make economic  sense.

[bertiedog]

Does nobody understand sales anymore. in the past business did deliver at a  particular date, to all shops, it leaves disgruntled shops as well. They should have embargoed the sales till all suppliers had items to sell. I have checked with the supplier and they have no delivery date. They do expect to complete all orders in due time. 

What should be a nice hobby is turning into a cattle market run by people who do not care...it is slowly destroying customer trust and taking the hobby downwards at an ever increasing rate.

I will be happy to get one, but I would have waited till an even playing field was there , not jumped the gun.

Edited June 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[Stevelewis]

Well, I ran mine forwards and backwards for upwards of five hours today, on a circuit consisting of set-track (minimum second radius) and Peco 12" and 18" radius points. The only snag I encountered was running forwards through the points in the facing direction, where the slide bar housing would occasionally catch on the protruding lugs of the point tiebar - but that's easily fixed! Mostly this was with a trailing load of the bogie open (No. 22) and a four-wheel van and open - I didn't try pushing this train for long but had no derailments.

 

The only thing I could comment on is that the coupling sits a little high relative to the couplings on the Peco wagons.

I think  you  may  have confirmed  what  I said   earlier  that  running  with  a  train  may  be  the  answer to  the  pony truck derailing  problem  I am  trying to  find  the  time  to  have  a run later tonight

I

[mcowgill]

Running with a train may well solve the problem but with a pony truck at both ends that still leaves one end leading at all times.

 

I've done some more running and also managed to carefully tape up the pickups under the rear end - interestingly it made no difference to the rear pony truck derailing so it may be that there's more to it than that.

 

It looks like the wheels are splitting the point blades, so that suggests the wheel/flange/rail interface and back to back/check gauge.  The back to back seems ok and playing about with adjusting it to slightly wider or narrower doesn't seem to be making any noticeable difference.

 

One thing I have noticed is that it seems fussier about curves than was previously suggested, definitely a hint of lifting inside wheel here over the yet to be installed GVT cattle grid:

 

It doesn't seem to like some of the Peco points on the layout, but others are fine so I'm beginning to point the finger at the track and will give the loco the benefit of the doubt at the moment.  The loco (and its on order sisters) were not intended to run on my current little layout but on the L&B layout I'd been planning on and off for years, it should finally get built.  That will have handbuilt prototype points which I'm sure the locos will love!

 

Martin

 

[Stevelewis]

Running with a train may well solve the problem but with a pony truck at both ends that still leaves one end leading at all times.

 

I've done some more running and also managed to carefully tape up the pickups under the rear end - interestingly it made no difference to the rear pony truck derailing so it may be that there's more to it than that.

 

It looks like the wheels are splitting the point blades, so that suggests the wheel/flange/rail interface and back to back/check gauge.  The back to back seems ok and playing about with adjusting it to slightly wider or narrower doesn't seem to be making any noticeable difference.

 

One thing I have noticed is that it seems fussier about curves than was previously suggested, definitely a hint of lifting inside wheel here over the yet to be installed GVT cattle grid:

_DSC9536.jpg

 

It doesn't seem to like some of the Peco points on the layout, but others are fine so I'm beginning to point the finger at the track and will give the loco the benefit of the doubt at the moment.  The loco (and its on order sisters) were not intended to run on my current little layout but on the L&B layout I'd been planning on and off for years, it should finally get built.  That will have handbuilt prototype points which I'm sure the locos will love!

 

Martin

 

For  the  last  hour  or  so  I  have  been in  the  shed  where  the  layout  is  under  construction  but  2  days  lost  due  to   the  problems  with  these  2  L&B locos  ( the faulty  valve  gear  one  will remain  with  me  until replacement stock arrives it  still runs with  the detached  expansion  link)

You  have  highlighted  what  I  have  begun  to  suspect  that  there  is  more to   the  running problems  than  first  thought,  both  my  locos  don't seem to be  at  home  on  some  Peco points they run thro' some  OK  but  others of  the  same  type ( 18" Mainline) cause derailments.

 

I have confirmed  that  the track is  ok  by running  other locos  Roco & Minitrains  H0e  and  also  some  n gauge  locos  all of  which run  fine

 

Also  my Yeo  has  a strange glitch, it  does not  run  as  smoothly  as   the Exe  and  its speed  is  slower than EXE  at  all controller settings,  the  glitch is  that  there  is  a  curve on  the layout  radius   12"  where  Yeo simply  stops  running,  no matter  what  speed it  is running at  the place  it  stops  at is  always the  same  approx.  half  way  through the  curve  which  is  approx. 80'.  Everything  else including  EXE run through the  curve  without a falter.  I have  checked the  wheels of Yeo on a sheet of   glass  and they  all sit  level  when  I give the loco a poke it restarts,  the  cause  is not the track power as  I have tested the track  when  the loco stops .

At this  stage  I do not feel like removing the  body  (yet)

 

Also according  to  the instruction  sheet  this loco  has  a  Coreless  Motor,  not  sure  if  this  has  been mentioned  previously??

 

Incidentally  there  are  a  couple  more modellers on the 00-9  society forum  reporting  problems  with  the  locos  tonight.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Stevelewis

[dibber25]

Why do people bother to advertise a product they do not even supply, Heljan should be ashamed of the situation of customers being hung out to dry because they cannot deliver the goods. Why did they decide to deliver some, and not wait for goodness sake? It ruins customer trust to do it this way, and frankly if there there was an alternative I would not buy from them.

I was satisfied with the Metropolitan and the Beyer, but this distribution takes the biscuit. With other makes this year nothing has arrived on time.

Stephen.

In what respect have customers 'been hung out to dry'? Seems to me that delivery has been made of the early livery examples, though initially not enough to supply all orders at once. Some customers are happy, others have to wait a little longer. One customer on RMweb has a problematic pony truck. We're told that 420 have been supplied, so the percentage failure rate is currently less than a quarter of one per cent. (CJL)

[PaulRhB]

I picked up my first from my local model shop yesterday and found a reason for the derailing.

The flanges are catching on the inside edge of the spring part of the wiper. I used tweezers and a screwdriver to bend a tiny 'dog leg' in the spring arm and it stopped the catching that was restricting the swing occasionally. The wiper is so thin it has distorted slightly in the stamping out leaving an edge the flange was catching.

 

 

After bending

Edit: NOTE the bend needs to be very slight so it only makes 0.5mm ish difference or it lifts the drivers slightly and it slips. Bend it then push it almost flat again

Edited June 16, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Roy Langridge]

Does nobody understand sales anymore. in the past business did deliver at a  particular date, to all shops, it leaves disgruntled shops as well. They should have embargoed the sales till all suppliers had items to sell. I have checked with the supplier and they have no delivery date. They do expect to complete all orders in due time. 

What should be a nice hobby is turning into a cattle market run by people who do not care...it is slowly destroying customer trust and taking the hobby downwards at an ever increasing rate.

I will be happy to get one, but I would have waited till an even playing field was there , not jumped the gun.

 

 

Does nobody have any patience any more? Give it a break Stephen - we don't want another Peckett saga. I am sure yours will turn up with the next batch. If there are issues that need addressing by Heljan, you may even benefit from the wait.

 

Roy

[roundhouse]

I am quite happy to wait for mine as no immediate plans for a new layout although it might prompt me to get my part of Bourne Valley set up for the first time in many years. Also if mine is from the next batch, hopefully any issue may be dealt with by then.

[Stevelewis]

In what respect have customers 'been hung out to dry'? Seems to me that delivery has been made of the early livery examples, though initially not enough to supply all orders at once. Some customers are happy, others have to wait a little longer. One customer on RMweb has a problematic pony truck. We're told that 420 have been supplied, so the percentage failure rate is currently less than a quarter of one per cent. (CJL)

 

There  were  2  posts  last  evening  from individuals  on forums  reporting  problems,  Both  my  locos  Exe  & Yeo  have  problems    both suffer  the  same  pony truck problem  1  also  has valve  gear problems (  it came apart)   The other  loco  simply  stops on the  track  and  requires a  poke to restart!  Not  really  had  time  to identify  the  problem  but  safe  to  say  the  problem lies  with  the  loco not  the  track  as  other  locos perform OK on  the  same  track.

 

  Also   there  has  been  a report onNGRM of  failed  valve  gear! 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Stevelewis

[Stevelewis]

I am quite happy to wait for mine as no immediate plans for a new layout although it might prompt me to get my part of Bourne Valley set up for the first time in many years. Also if mine is from the next batch, hopefully any issue may be dealt with by then.

 

Although  if  there  are  problems  it  would  take  time  to  rework  the  already  completed  batches  due  in direct  from  Heljan very soon

Edited June 16, 2017 by Stevelewis

[roundhouse]

Although  if  there  are  problems  it  would  take  time  to  rework  the  already  completed  batches  due  in direct  from  Heljan very soon

You are almost certainly right on this but we can live in hope. Paul's fix for the rear pick ups looks easy enough if that is the only issue with them.

[PaulRhB]

I've added an edit as mine was skipping slightly as the bend was too severe.

 

"Edit: NOTE the bend needs to be very slight so it only makes 0.5mm ish difference or it lifts the drivers slightly and it slips. Bend it then push it almost flat again :)"

 

Now to sort the coupling height

[PaulRhB]

Ok they wouldn't couple without help, So remove the coupling and hold the NEM shank in the nose of pliers and gently bend down the hook end a little more than required, I also removed the drop tabs off the loop part to clear the cowcatcher. That was enough in mine to line up the couplings.

Edited July 1, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Jon Baker]

Well, I ran mine forwards and backwards for upwards of five hours today, on a circuit consisting of set-track (minimum second radius) and Peco 12" and 18" radius points. The only snag I encountered was running forwards through the points in the facing direction, where the slide bar housing would occasionally catch on the protruding lugs of the point tiebar - but that's easily fixed! Mostly this was with a trailing load of the bogie open (No. 22) and a four-wheel van and open - I didn't try pushing this train for long but had no derailments.

Did you try running with the loco in the opposite direction? Mine ran faultlessly for an hour forward and reverse round an oval. It was only when I turned the loco around that I found a problem - so that the loco was turning in the opposite direction. The issue I have with derailments is almost certainly due to one of the pony truck pickups not sitting flush to the underside of the body of the loco. 

[Jon Baker]

There  were  2  posts  last  evening  from individuals  on forums  reporting  problems,  Both  my  locos  Exe  & Yeo  have  problems    both suffer  the  same  pony truck problem 

My post on the other forum (L&B) maybe one that you are referring to. The issue with mine is almost certainly that one of the rear pickups is not sitting flush to the underside of the loco, whereas the other one is, hence I am only having issues when the loco turns one direction and not the other. I guess if I can find a way of making the pickup sit flush it may solve the issue.

 

Haven't tried running with a train yet (because I haven't risked altering the couplings), but in my opinion if this does help it is not a solution, only a workaround. The loco should run properly both light and with stock attached.

[PaulRhB]

Jon is it the left one next to the tank? I just twisted it fractionally by pulling it to the right with teeezers. It was catching on the frame and was wedged up at one side.

These incredibly thin wipers are a pain, the root cause of the trouble in Tillig 2-10-2's as well, they don't retain their 'spring' if they are pushed down regularly and the stamping out leaves edges that catch.

Bachmann 'N' 08's, Tillig 2-10-2's and now Heljan, I prefer wire wipers but there's not much room in these

[PaulRhB]

Haven't tried running with a train yet (because I haven't risked altering the couplings),

Just twist gently as in my photo above and it just deforms them slightly and you don't really see the difference. Spares are available from Peco.

[Stevelewis]

Regarding  the  copuplings:

The  pockets  do make  the  couplings point  upwards  a  little!  So  I followed  Heljans  recommendation in the  instructions  and  removed  the  loops, ( most  of  the  other 00-9  &  H0e locos  I own do  not  require  loops to be  fitted they  work  perfectly  weill without  them)

I found  it  easier to  remove  the  pony  trucks from the loco to  fit  the  coupling  into  the  NEM  pocket  BUT before  doing  so  I took  2 pairs  of  small pliers  and  bent  the  coupling shaft   so that  it  would effectively be  pointing downward  when   fitted  into a correctly aligned pocket,  So  when they are fitted   into  the  L&B locos they now are  level  with  Peco L&B stock.

Be  advised  the  coupling  can  foul the  cowcatcher which will cause  more pony truck problems, careful finger tip adjustment of  the cowcatcher is  advised.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ref the problem I reprted  with YEO  it tends to  stop for no reason,  I have  removed the  loco body to check inside  nothing  of  note  was  found which could  cause the problem, the chassis itself  is  quite  nice  I ran  it  as   an 0-6-0 as the ponys  were removed,  it  ran exceptionally smoothly  and  did not  stop unexpectedly  anywhere!

So body refitted, before  refitting  the  trucks  I ran loco again it  performed fine  no problems,  I refitted  the  trucks  the  problem  returned!  So  I feel the  cause  is  somwhere  with  the  pony trucks, they do tend  to  reduce  adhesion,  because  when  I had  the loco stripped down to  the  bare  chassis it  pulled  5 x Peco coaches up  a 1 in25 gradient,  the  rebuilt  loco managed  just  3  coaches!  The  complete loco weighs 139gm  the  chassis only  weighs 89gm!   work that  one  out!!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple  of  points  from  the  instructions:

 

The  loco will run over  curved  track down to a MINIMUM radius  of 305mm  ( nearly 12") but  due to its  finescale wheels  & Peco  couplers more  satisfactory  running will be  achieved over  larger radius  formations

The motor  is  a  coreless one

And  cleaning  of  the wiper  pickups  acting on the back of  the wheels  is recommended .................. ( my comment ...which  may be difficult to access!)

 

They acknowledge  the  help given  by  Peco during the development of the model.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A personal  note  from  myself  I have  to  admit   that  even  with   the  problems with  the 2 locos  I  have,  I very much like  the  locos

Edited June 16, 2017 by Stevelewis

[JSpencer]

The motor  is  a  coreless one

 

Oh no! I see OO works switched to Coreless recently too. Now that I own several Coreless locos, I'm not convinced they bring any advantages (while bringing a few inconveniences) in model railways.

I hope some of the tiny DCC chips will cope this loco.

[Jon Baker]

My post on the other forum (L&B) maybe one that you are referring to. The issue with mine is almost certainly that one of the rear pickups is not sitting flush to the underside of the loco, whereas the other one is, hence I am only having issues when the loco turns one direction and not the other. I guess if I can find a way of making the pickup sit flush it may solve the issue.

 

Haven't tried running with a train yet (because I haven't risked altering the couplings), but in my opinion if this does help it is not a solution, only a workaround. The loco should run properly both light and with stock attached.

Running with load (wagon and coach) makes no difference to the derailing on right hand curves.

[Jon Baker]

Jon is it the left one next to the tank? I just twisted it fractionally by pulling it to the right with teeezers. It was catching on the frame and was wedged up at one side.

These incredibly thin wipers are a pain, the root cause of the trouble in Tillig 2-10-2's as well, they don't retain their 'spring' if they are pushed down regularly and the stamping out leaves edges that catch.

Bachmann 'N' 08's, Tillig 2-10-2's and now Heljan, I prefer wire wipers but there's not much room in these

Paul, it is the one next to the tank, so it is the inside when the loco is facing forwards on a right hand curve. I'll have to try twisting it later on, but it is definitely the cause of the derailments, and adding a load makes no difference as I have posted above.

[Stevelewis]

Oh no! I see OO works switched to Coreless recently too. Now that I own several Coreless locos, I'm not convinced they bring any advantages (while bringing a few inconveniences) in model railways.

I hope some of the tiny DCC chips will cope this loco.

 

Yes  looking  inside  there  should  be  plenty (well enough room  ) for  a  standard NEM 651 think  that  the  correct  number  but  its  the  normal 6 pin decoder,  I think only  place  for  a  sound  speaker  would  be  in  the  cab  with  the  invisible  driver!!

 

As  an  advocate  of  digital  I suppose  I will digitize  them eventually,  but  I think  I will try  to  get  them  to  work  correctly  first

Edited June 16, 2017 by Stevelewis

[Compound2632]

Did you try running with the loco in the opposite direction? Mine ran faultlessly for an hour forward and reverse round an oval. It was only when I turned the loco around that I found a problem - so that the loco was turning in the opposite direction. The issue I have with derailments is almost certainly due to one of the pony truck pickups not sitting flush to the underside of the body of the loco. 

 

Yes, all combinations - so trailing and facing 18" radius points were traversed in both the straight and curved directions, with either pony truck leading; likewise clockwise and anti-clockwise round the oval. I ran light engine and with the short train mentioned. I should say that although the tightest radius used was Peco's N set track second radius (264 mm/10 3/8") this was approached via a transition - first a 22.5 deg fourth radius curve (333 mm/13 1/8") then a 45 deg third radius curve (298 mm/11 3/4") and easing out again onto the straight in the same way.

 

 

Ok they wouldn't couple without help, the yellow lines show the difference.

 

 

So hold and gently bend down a little more than required, I also removed the drop tabs to clear the cowcatcher.

 

 

And all in line

 

 

Thanks, I shall try this. I'd simply unclipped the whole loop, which does give an appearance closer to the prototype chopper coupling.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Compound2632

[Stevelewis]

Yes, all combinations - so trailing and facing 18" radius points were traversed in both the straight and curved directions, with either pony truck leading; likewise clockwise and anti-clockwise round the oval. I ran light engine and with the short train mentioned. I should say that although the tightest radius used was Peco's N set track second radius (264 mm/10 3/8") this was approached via a transition - first a 22.5 deg fourth radius curve (333 mm/13 1/8") then a 45 deg third radius curve (298 mm/11 3/4") and easing out again onto the straight in the same way.

 

 

 

Thanks, I shall try this. I'd simply unclipped the whole loop, which does give an appearance closer to the prototype chopper coupling.

 

As  I  have  mentioned  above  the  majority  of  H0e locomotives  as  supplied   do  not  have  loops  fitted  just  the  hook  and  they  perform  fine   I have  fitted  the  couplings  to 2  L&B locos  without  the  loops  ( as  recommended  by  Heljan)  and  they  work  fine.