Lynton & Barnstaple OO9 Loco from Heljan

[Nile]

Bachmann seemed to have managed ok with their 009 Baldwin, unlike their On30 model. Or am I missing the point of your post?

[Jeff Smith]

I guess the point of my post was meant to be how much more difficult it is to model in 009 with complex motion.  One wonders who is at fault or to be congratulated, the model designers or the factories?

 

[Nile]

It perhaps shows the different approach of Bachmann UK and Bachmann USA to the problem. The 009 model was a completely new model with a blank slate, hence an accurate model. And the valve gear is no more complicated than that on N gauge models. The On30 model was based on an existing chassis that lacked valve gear, so the final model is a compromise. Perhaps they didn't think the market would be big enough to justify developing an all new model.

[colinjamesporter]

Hello,
Has anyone who owns a Heljan Southern liveried Manning Wardle managed to fit the extra pipework that is included in the detail pack?
I can see from photos of the prototype how it is meant to go but there does not seem to be any obvious way of securing it.
The Heljan instructions don't show anything only about removing some lugs!
Best wishes
Colin

[PaulRhB]

14 minutes ago, colinjamesporter said: there does not seem to be any obvious way of securing it.
The Heljan instructions don't show anything only about removing some lugs!
Best wishes
Colin

As far as we could figure out they meant cut the lugs, pins?, off the pipe and glue it to the loco. 

[Jenny Emily]

I recently got the chance to look at these and review them. The examples I was lent performed faultlessly, and got around curved track down to around 1 foot radius. 
 

overall I was really impressed by them; especially the ease that they can be DCC fitted and have space inside for stay alives/sound and speaker setups. 
 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jenny Emily

[mjohnm]

I have 3 second-batch MWs, all of which derail on some or other of 17 Mainline points.  I have quite an investment in the L & B and want to make the locos work but do not have the skills to make the alterations suggested on this forum.  Local model shops don't seem to have the experience or enthusiasm for the task!  How can I find an expert to undertake such work?  Incidentally, a tiny Eggerbahn 0-4-0 sails through all the points but an equally ancient Roco 0-6-0 diesel derails on many of them.

[PaulRhB]

33 minutes ago, mjohnm said:

I have 3 second-batch MWs, all of which derail on some or other of 17 Mainline points.  I have quite an investment in the L & B and want to make the locos work but do not have the skills to make the alterations suggested on this forum.  Local model shops don't seem to have the experience or enthusiasm for the task!  How can I find an expert to undertake such work?  Incidentally, a tiny Eggerbahn 0-4-0 sails through all the points but an equally ancient Roco 0-6-0 diesel derails on many of them.

Shame the local shop can’t recommend anyone, whereabouts are you and maybe someone can recommend someone local? Usually I’d suggest a local club but that’s out at present! If not an appeal in the general modelling section for someone to recommend a reputable person?  

[PaulRhB]

@mjohnm you could ask Ian, roundhouse on here as he’s fixed his and does commercial work too. 
His L&B thread is here

 

 

 

[fezza]

The other option may be asking the 009 society. I was offered help by them at an exhibition and it was very useful. But I don't think you will ever get them running as well as their continental counterparts - at least not without better motors and improved gearing.  I have got mine to  'just about OK' running qualities through following advice on here and elsewhere but they won't consistently and reliably crawl through points. 

[rockershovel]

I’m so disappointed that this very characterful model, has been a disappointment like this, although it really comes down to poor design concept. 

 

I can’t avoid the feeling that the Minitrains Feldbahn 0-8-0, with its “indicative” static valvegear and moving connecting rod is a better formula for this very small component. I don’t see people complaining about THOSE. Same for the pony trucks - a “roller” type blind-flanged rim front and back might have been better, along the lines of the Hornby Cartazzi trailing axles or indeed, the scratch-built model shown earlier in this thread? There could have been a swinging coupler in a slot to provide for tighter radii. 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

35 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I’m so disappointed that this very characterful model, has been a disappointment like this, although it really comes down to poor design concept. 
 

 

partly original design and partly assembly cause the problems. 

 

Quote

 

 

I can’t avoid the feeling that the Minitrains Feldbahn 0-8-0, with its “indicative” static valvegear and moving connecting rod is a better formula for this very small component. I don’t see people complaining about THOSE.

Er you haven’t seen the stuff about it falling off those then?  On NGRM several had it fall off! And that’s without the discussion on what scale they actually are. 
Anyway it’s been done successfully by Farish, Arnold, Fleiscmann, Bachmann and others in N gauge so it is possible to do it well but it will be delicate too. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by PaulRhB

[rockershovel]

12 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 

partly original design and partly assembly cause the problems. 

 

Er you haven’t seen the stuff about it falling off those then?  On NGRM several had it fall off! And that’s without the discussion on what scale they actually are. 
Anyway it’s been done successfully by Farish, Arnold, Fleiscmann, Bachmann and others in N gauge so it is possible to do it well but it will be delicate too. 

 

I’d suggest that the assembly problems arise from design problems. 

 

I hadn't seen the thing about the Minitrains motion, no. Discussions of HO vs OO scale in NG are hardly new, including Minitrains. 

 

I certainly agree that designing and assembling working motion on N Gauge locos is a well-trodden path, by now. 

 

[PaulRhB]

52 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I’d suggest that the assembly problems arise from design problems. 

Well having sorted a few I’d suggest sloppy riveting as the valve gear problem, poor specification of rivets? or assembly. The back to back issue on the pony wheels is probably poor specification again on the axle or sloppy tolerances? Both those are probably miscommunication over poor design. All mine run beautifully once you sort out the pony trucks. The real design issue is the pickups interference with tracking and the lateral and vertical clearances for the pony. On larger radii and flat track it’s not an issue but show them a typical 009 layout with 12” radius and inclines and they run into trouble  

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Well having sorted a few I’d suggest sloppy riveting as the valve gear problem, poor specification of rivets? or assembly. The back to back issue on the pony wheels is probably poor specification again on the axle or sloppy tolerances? Both those are probably miscommunication over poor design. All mine run beautifully once you sort out the pony trucks. The real design issue is the pickups interference with tracking and the lateral and vertical clearances for the pony. On larger radii and flat track it’s not an issue but show them a typical 009 layout with 12” radius and inclines and they run into trouble  

 

Interesting comment about “typical 009 layout”. I’d certainly agree that these models are really intended for a more “scale” environment. 

 

The interface between insufficient specification and insufficient quality control is a maze...

 

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Interesting comment about “typical 009 layout”.

Only because many were built before the mainline 18” points were available so 12” radii are common and as many real NG railways are in hilly areas changes in gradient are also common which are an issue with the pony trucks. To be honest if you take out the pony wheels leaving the couplings bearing on the cow catchers they will run happily on just about everything but you’ll need to line up the couplings when shunting. 

[rockershovel]

18 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Only because many were built before the mainline 18” points were available so 12” radii are common and as many real NG railways are in hilly areas changes in gradient are also common which are an issue with the pony trucks. To be honest if you take out the pony wheels leaving the couplings bearing on the cow catchers they will run happily on just about everything but you’ll need to line up the couplings when shunting. 

 

I’ve seen a post somewhere about a protruding tang to “steer” couplings around curves? 

[PaulRhB]

5 hours ago, fezza said:

at least not without better motors and improved gearing

All 5 of mine have their original drivetrains and run fine at slow speed, the only mechanical problem with the mechanism is the sloppy valve gear. 

 

Two more with unmodified mechanisms, just the pony  truck mods in this topic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by PaulRhB

[AlfaZagato]

A vote for Paul here.   Taking a few minutes to alter the pickups alone clears up a lot of running issues.

 

I don't know what to say about the quality issue.   I have five entirely different Heljan locomotives.   Only the two most recent, one of the types discussed here and a 1366, ever give me issues.   I don't know if something major changed at Heljan between introduction of the L&B M-W and the Class 77.   I would suspect so, though, and blame whatever that is.

[fezza]

Roco and Tillig have shown that it can be done in HOe/009. Minitrains and Heljan seem very hit and miss. 

 

And its not just a question of cost - my Rocos cost about £140 each. Tillig stuff is more expensive but it is very good. 

 

One of my Heljans runs just about  like Paul's but the other two are still problematic despite hours of fiddling by me and a friend who I regard as a model engineering genius (the kind of bloke can build a loco chassis out of old tin cans) .

 

It shouldn't really be like this... it is a real shame. 

[PaulRhB]

25 minutes ago, fezza said:

Tillig stuff is more expensive but it is very good. 

You should have seen one of my Tillig 2-10-2’s!  See my Südharz thread, it was an utter dog even after three returns to Tillig. The others are superb but the 2-10-2 has a fundamental flaw in its pickups making them fold flat and lose contact so all mine have had extra spring wire pickups added. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by PaulRhB

[fezza]

Yes I guess some models suffer from poor design and some from faulty assembly. I think the Heljans might suffer a bit of both. It's great that some people have luck with them. However with an RRP around £190, we should really expect 90% of people to be happy with their purchases. From discussions on here and in the 009 society I think the figure is nearer 40%.

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, fezza said:

Yes I guess some models suffer from poor design and some from faulty assembly. I think the Heljans might suffer a bit of both. It's great that some people have luck with them. However with an RRP around £190, we should really expect 90% of people to be happy with their purchases. From discussions on here and in the 009 society I think the figure is nearer 40%.

Well we should expect 100% who keep them to be happy  I agree there’s a bit of both design and assembly although the former has largely been addressed in batch two onwards. The quality control definitely affects the valve gear and the wheel profile and pony axles could be specification or QC. 
If you get a good runner the mods in this topic will give you a very good loco. When we ran them at the show in the video above we only had one derailment due to the front loco when we did the double header, stalling on a dead point blade, causing the pony to derail as it absorbed the impact of the loco behind piling into it. 

[No Decorum]

You don’t always get what you pay for. Bachmann 009 locos run like a dream on tighter radius curves than the Heljan ones. They are also cheaper. Not much good, of course, if you want to model L&B.

[PaulRhB]

23 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

You don’t always get what you pay for. Bachmann 009 locos run like a dream on tighter radius curves than the Heljan ones. They are also cheaper. Not much good, of course, if you want to model L&B.

To be fair virtually every model of the L&B 2-6-2’s has had limitations on radius if they model the frames around the ponies, using 9mm gauge and plastic being thicker than scale for the frames reduces clearances even more  

The Bachmann Baldwins do have one minor design issue. The rear wheel of the front pony is actually fixed in the chassis so it doesn’t hit the cylinders. This means on a change to a rising gradient it lifts the front two driving axles slightly and the loco can sit spinning if the load is near capacity as it’s lost traction from those axles. I’ve added a whitemetal crew to mine to put more weight on the rear when this happens and they happily pull realistic loads but I’ve also bought a tiny grinding bit, same diameter as the axle, to try adding a bit of vertical movement to that pony axle and keep at least two driven wheels in contact

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by PaulRhB