MK2 Air conditioned coaches - Detail differences

[cornish trains jez]

Hi All,

 

Does anyone know the difference between the MK2d, MK2e and MK2f coaches (1st and 2nd class). I have searched the internet but can't find any info on this (maybe there aren't any differences!!  ).

 

 I am looking to know whether there are any underframe / body detail differences, and interior differences as I would like to make my Graham farish examples as accurate as possible for my Cornish N scale layout. Also, what was the interior colour scheme for these blue/grey examples running during the 80's in Cornwall?

 

Lots of questions, but any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

Edited February 25, 2013 by cornish trains jez

[Vin]

Hi Jez,

 

Your best bet is to get a copy of Micheal Harris British rail mark 2 coaches book. Isbn 978-1-898432-48-7. Not the cheapest book in the world but has photos of the inside and outside. As the number of variations are vast. Especially if you're modelling later versions or conversions.

 

Regards

 

Vin

[BernardTPM]

Mk.2d &e coaches had an air-conditioning system that was, effectively, added to the earlier pressure ventilation system. The Mk.2f coaches had a redesigned system that was simpler and more reliable and meant fewer boxes underneath; also slightly different vents on the roof. Most Mk.2fs had Mk.3 style seats (orange First and light blue Second), though some TSOs were fitted with the Mk.2 type (dark blue). Mk.2d coaches had the large toilets like Mk.2b & 2c coaches, Mk.2e & f had smaller toilets. Externally this only made a difference on the TSO where the toilet windows were either both on the same side for Mk.2d or diagonally opposite corners on Mk.2e & 2f. Blue/grey coaches probably would still have their original interior colours. Folding gangway doors in the corridor connections were orange/red on Mk.2d and cream on Mk.2e & 2f.

[cornish trains jez]

Hi Jez,

 

Your best bet is to get a copy of Micheal Harris British rail mark 2 coaches book. Isbn 978-1-898432-48-7. Not the cheapest book in the world but has photos of the inside and outside. As the number of variations are vast. Especially if you're modelling later versions or conversions.

 

Regards

 

Vin

Thanks Vin. I'll see if I can get a copy cheap on ebay.

Best regards,

Jeremy

[cornish trains jez]

Mk.2d &e coaches had an air-conditioning system that was, effectively, added to the earlier pressure ventilation system. The Mk.2f coaches had a redesigned system that was simpler and more reliable and meant fewer boxes underneath; also slightly different vents on the roof. Most Mk.2fs had Mk.3 style seats (orange First and light blue Second), though some TSOs were fitted with the Mk.2 type (dark blue). Mk.2d coaches had the large toilets like Mk.2b & 2c coaches, Mk.2e & f had smaller toilets. Externally this only made a difference on the TSO where the toilet windows were either both on the same side for Mk.2d or diagonally opposite corners on Mk.2e & 2f. Blue/grey coaches probably would still have their original interior colours. Folding gangway doors in the corridor connections were orange/red on Mk.2d and cream on Mk.2e & 2f.

Thanks Bernard. I was thinking of having some interior detailing so it's great to know the colour schemes and positioning of details.

Best regards,

Jeremy

[andyman7]

Mk.2d &e coaches had an air-conditioning system that was, effectively, added to the earlier pressure ventilation system. The Mk.2f coaches had a redesigned system that was simpler and more reliable and meant fewer boxes underneath; also slightly different vents on the roof. Most Mk.2fs had Mk.3 style seats (orange First and light blue Second), though some TSOs were fitted with the Mk.2 type (dark blue). Mk.2d coaches had the large toilets like Mk.2b & 2c coaches, Mk.2e & f had smaller toilets. Externally this only made a difference on the TSO where the toilet windows were either both on the same side for Mk.2d or diagonally opposite corners on Mk.2e & 2f. Blue/grey coaches probably would still have their original interior colours. Folding gangway doors in the corridor connections were orange/red on Mk.2d and cream on Mk.2e & 2f.

The only thing I would add is that Mk2ds had wood panelled decor whilst Mk2e/f moved to (generally white or off-white) formica. The Mk2d variant also included first class vehicles with compartments as well as some with open saloons. Mk2e/f were all open saloons.

[BernardTPM]

In case you were wondering why they changed the toilets, this was to enable two extra seats in the TSOs, or one in the case of BSOs. This brought them into line with the Mk.1, Mk.2 and Mk.2a coaches which made seat reservation easier for booking staff as there was a full compliment of seats.

Incidentally, the wood finish used up to Mk.2e coaches was genuine wood veneer, not wood patterned plastic while the white plastic panelling in the Mk.2fs had a stippled finish that used to get grubby looking around arm level quite quickly.

Edited February 25, 2013 by BernardTPM

[Flood]

To summarise the exterior differences:

 

First Open

 

All FO coaches have both the toilets on the motor alternator (m/a) side (the large cylinder by the left hand bogie).

 

All Mk2d and Mk2e FO stock have a pressure ventilation cabinet under the fourth window from the right on the m/a side, MK2f FO stock do not have this cabinet. Mk2d 3170 - 90/3211 - 16, all of Mk2e and Mk2f 3276 - 3220/3357 - 81 have Stones air con equipment with 2 small fans on the non m/a side. Mk2d 3191 - 3210 and Mk2f 3321 - 3356/3382 - 3439 have Temperature Ltd air con equipment with one large fan on the non m/a side.

 

Second Open

 

All Mk2d TSO coaches have both the toilets on the motor alternator (m/a) side (the large cylinder by the left hand bogie). Mk2e and Mk2f TSO coaches have the toilet to the right of the passenger windows on both sides.

 

All Mk2d and Mk2e TSO stock have a pressure ventilation cabinet just to the left of the fourth window from the right on the m/a side, MK2f TSO stock do not have this cabinet. All Mk2d TSO stock (except 5653) and all the Mk2e TSO stock have Stones air con equipment with 2 small fans on the non m/a side. All Mk2f TSO stock (and Mk2d 5653) have Temperature Ltd air con equipment with one large fan on the non m/a side.

 

Brake Second Open

 

All Mk2d and Mk2e BSO stock have a pressure ventilation cabinet just to the left of the fourth window from the right on the m/a side, MK2f BSO stock do not have this cabinet. All Mk2d BSO stock and all the Mk2e BSO stock have Stones air con equipment with 1 small fan on the non m/a side. All Mk2f BSO stock have Temperature Ltd air con equipment with one large fan on the non m/a side.

 

First Corridor

 

Only Mk2d FK stock was made therefore they have a pressure ventilation cabinet under the fourth window from the right on the m/a side and Stones air con equipment with 2 small fans on the non m/a side.

 

Brake First Corridor

 

Only Mk2d BFK stock was made therefore they have a pressure ventilation cabinet under the fourth window from the right on the m/a side and Stones air con equipment with 1 small fan on the non m/a side.

 

 

Mk2d FO and FK stock have two roof vents at the non roof panel end and one vent on the non toilet side (and a water tank filler) at the roof panel end. All other FO stock have two vents at the non roof panel end and one vent at the roof panel end on the non toilet side.

 

Mk2d TSO stock have two roof vents at the non roof panel end and one vent on the non m/a side (and a water tank filler) at the roof panel end. Mk2e and Mk2f TSO stock have one vent at the roof panel end on the non m/a side and at the non roof panel end they have one vent offset nearest to the m/a side and another vent on the centre line and nearer to the centre of the coach. Mk2e TSO stock up to 5821 certainly, but not 5827 onwards, had water fillers at each end on the roof.

 

Mk2d BFK and the Mk2d and Mk2e BSO stock stock have one roof vent at the roof panel end on the non toilet side and a water tank filler where the other vent would be. Mk2f BSO stock have one vent at the roof panel end on the non toilet side.

 

Mk2d FO stock before 3189, all Mk2d TSO stock, all Mk2d BSO stock, Mk2d FK stock before 13585 and Mk2d BFK stock before 14162 had bump stops on the doors, all other air con stock had no bump stops. Mk2d stock, Mk2e BSO and Mk2e TSO stock up to 5852 had door windows deeper than the passenger windows. Mk2e FO, Mk2e TSO stock from 5853 and Mk2f stock had door windows the same depth as the passenger windows (but door swaps did occur!).

 

Finally! Mk2d and Mk2e stock have friction dampers on the bogies, Mk2f stock have hydraulic dampers.

 

Mark 2 air con stock do not all look the same!

Edited September 18, 2021 by Flood
Revision to Mk2E TSO with roof mounted water fillers

[woodenhead]

Whilst on the subject of mk2 stock, when did the mk2 mini buffets get converted?

[Flood]

According to the Railway Observer the first two Mk2c TSOTs were under conversion in February 1980 and arrived at Old Oak Common in early May 1980. They also state 6610 as the first Mk2d TSOT converted being at Wolverton on 16th November 1980 and at Old Oak Common four days later. 6601 to 6609 are not listed until 2 months later, these may have been converted at York (as some of the Mk2c stock was) or may have just been missed and been delivered earlier.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Flood

[37114]

There was an article in a recent Rail Express on modelling the aircon MK2's, think it was November 2012 issue but not 100%

[cornish trains jez]

According to the Railway Observer the first two Mk2c TSOTs were under conversion in February 1980 and arrived at Old Oak Common in early May 1980. They also state 6610 as the first Mk2d TSOT converted being at Wolverton on 16th November 1980 and at Old Oak Common four days later. 6601 to 6609 are not listed until 2 months later, these may have been converted at York (as some of the Mk2c stock was) or may have just been missed and been delivered earlier.

 

Thanks Graham! Some really useful and comprehensive information there which will help with the detailing. One more question, you don't happen to know which vehicle numbers were allocated to the Western region in the 80's? Thanks for your help!

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

[cornish trains jez]

There was an article in a recent Rail Express on modelling the aircon MK2's, think it was November 2012 issue but not 100%

 

Cheers, I'll see if I can get a copy on ebay. The more info the better!

Best regards,

Jeremy

[mjkerr]

As you are modelling N gauge, you have the same issues I have
So I use this website (amongst others) :
http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock

The first problem is trying to identify what the existing body shells represent
One of the batches Farish made was completely incorrect, so I use these for revinyling
You can recognise this from the complete lack of windows for the toilets

Basically, a TSO has eight windows and a FO (or FK) has seven windows, and in each case (apart from the FK) the tables line up with the windows
Ignore the BSO and BFK for just now (I will explain later why)

The next stage is to line up the coach so that you are viewing each side
I use the heating extractor, which in the below photo is on the left hand side and appears on all three versions :
This is a Mark 2D
http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock/Mk2D-TSO-5616-5740/i-Q9rSHg6/0/M/05737_ExeterSD_010406-M.jpg 
Note that the toilet windows are on the same side, and at each end
On the other side there are no such windows

http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock/Mk2E-TSO-5744-5906-AC2E/i-qBp7Cw2/0/M/05792_Exeter_140804-M.jpg 
Note that the toilet windows have now moved to the same end, and the roof has been modified to match this

http://www.flickr.com/photos/60854097@N06/7726870008/ 
Again in the same view, counting the windows shows this was originally a FO
This is a Mark 2F, there is less equipment on the underframe

Turning to the other side now
(I am unable to find a photo of a TSO just now, but this is suitable for the underframe
http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock/Mk2D-FO-3174-3188-AD1D/i-x7gD872/0/M/03182_ExeterSD_160607-M.jpg 
You will note how similar this is to the Graham Farish underframe
Also note the lack of toilet windows on this side

http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/photo/8169 
This is a Mark 2E, note the location of the toilets
You will now note this looks almost identical to the Graham Farish underframe

Finally is this one :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/2206508593/ 
This is a Mark 2F, note the location of the toilets
Note the single larger fan

Moving on to the BSO and BFK
Due to the handbrake some of the electrical equipment has had to be moved
It is very subtle, but refer to photos for each version

Here is a Mark 2E BSO, and note this only has the single fan, where the earlier photo above has two
http://www.railwayscene.co.uk/photo/4215 
I have yet to compare the latest Bachmann Farish BSO to see how correct that underframe is, but I suspect it uses the same template

Edited February 26, 2013 by mjkerr

[Flood]

The problem with coaching stock allocations is that they changed virtually every year as stock was cascaded due to HST deliveries.

 

In Jan 1980 the Western had the following:

 

Mk1 RBR 1644-59, 74, 1741, 5-8, 50, 2, 5, 1923-4, 44-8, 53, 4, 6

Mk2e FO 3242 - 3263

Mk2f FO 3278, 80-1, 4, 87, 3387-88, 3395-3417

Mk2d TSO 5619, 27, 41, 44, 56, 61, 77, 89, 95, 5702-4, 7-8, 17, 20-1, 25, 33-7

Mk2e TSO 5819-79

Mk2f TSO 6068-6099, 6101-6107, 6115-33

Mk2d FK 13562, 4-6, 79

Mk2d BFK 14140, 7, 52, 59

 

Only the Cornish Riviera and Golden Hind were HST services in the West Country at this time. It must be remembered that different cross country trains came from different Regions. Manchester and Liverpool to Plymouth and Penzance trains were Midland, the Edinburgh to Plymouth was Western, Newcastle to Bristol and Cardiff trains were Eastern as were the Newcastle to Poole trains.

 

By 1983 all the cross country HSTs had been delivered so the allocation on the Western was:

 

Mk1 RBR 1644-50, 71, 84, 95, 1923-4, 47-8, 53

Mk2f FO 3384, 3396, 3405-3417

Mk2d TSO 5619, 61, 77, 89, 95, 5703-4, 7-8, 17, 34-5, 7

Mk2e TSO 5751, 9, 63, 5-6, 70, 3-4, 7, 9, 82-3, 5, 97-9, 5803, 9, 11, 7, 46-79, 81-2, 5-6, 95, 5902

Mk2f TSO 6068-6099, 6125-32

Mk2d TSOT 6610-2, 5-8

Mk2d FK 13562, 4-6, 76, 9, 83, 7, 90-2, 13609-10

Mk2d BFK 14140, 59

 

The Worcester trains had gone over to HST as had most of the Paddington to West Country trains and a large number of cross country services. I'm honestly hard pushed to find many air con loco hauled services around this time on the Western at all. The local Cornish workings were only three Mk1 coaches.

 

It was a very bleak time in the West Country apart from Summer holiday traffic.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Flood

[cornish trains jez]

The problem with coaching stock allocations is that they changed virtually every year as stock was cascaded due to HST deliveries.

 

In Jan 1980 the Western had the following:

 

Mk1 RBR 1644-59, 74, 1741, 5-8, 50, 2, 5, 1923-4, 44-8, 53, 4, 6

Mk2e FO 3242 - 3263

Mk2f FO 3278, 80-1, 4, 87, 3387-88, 3395-3417

Mk2d TSO 5619, 27, 41, 44, 56, 61, 77, 89, 95, 5702-4, 7-8, 17, 20-1, 25, 33-7

Mk2e TSO 5819-79

Mk2f TSO 6068-6107, 6115-33

Mk2d FK 13562, 4-6, 79

Mk2d BFK 14140, 7, 52, 59

 

Only the Cornish Riviera and Golden Hind were HST services in the West Country at this time. It must be remembered that different cross country trains came from different Regions. Manchester and Liverpool to Plymouth and Penzance trains were Midland, the Edinburgh to Plymouth was Western, Newcastle to Bristol and Cardiff trains were Eastern as were the Newcastle to Poole trains.

 

By 1983 all the cross country HSTs had been delivered so the allocation on the Western was:

 

Mk1 RBR 1644-50, 71, 84, 95, 1923-4, 47-8, 53

Mk2f FO 3384, 3396, 3405-3417

Mk2d TSO 5619, 61, 77, 89, 95, 5703-4, 7-8, 17, 34-5, 7

Mk2e TSO 5751, 9, 63, 5-6, 70, 3-4, 7, 9, 82-3, 5, 97-9, 5803, 9, 11, 7, 46-79, 81-2, 5-6, 95, 5902

Mk2f TSO 6068-6099, 6125-32

Mk2d TSOT 6610-2, 5-8

Mk2d FK 13562, 4-6, 76, 9, 83, 7, 90-2, 13609-10

Mk2d BFK 14140, 59

 

The Worcester trains had gone over to HST as had most of the Paddington to West Country trains and a large number of cross country services. I'm honestly hard pushed to find many air con loco hauled services around this time on the Western at all. The local Cornish workings were only three Mk1 coaches.

 

It was a very bleak time in the West Country apart from Summer holiday traffic.

 

 

Thanks Graham. All this information will be really helpful as I have decided to renumber all my coaches to suit the location.

Best regards,

Jeremy

[BernardTPM]

The Poole Farish Mk.2 TSOs were 2e, with the diagonally opposite toilets while the Farish by Bachmann TSOs have been Mk.2d with the toilets both on the same side, but with one oddly spaced.

[cornish trains jez]

The Poole Farish Mk.2 TSOs were 2e, with the diagonally opposite toilets while the Farish by Bachmann TSOs have been Mk.2d with the toilets both on the same side, but with one oddly spaced.

 

It would be worth picking up some of the older TSO's then just to get the 2e configuration. The majority of the ones I already have are the newer tooling.

[BernardTPM]

Farish would have done printed versions of the Mk.2e TSO post 1990 to around 2001 on the clear shell.

[cornish trains jez]

Farish would have done printed versions of the Mk.2e TSO post 1990 to around 2001 on the clear shell.

 

Did they produce an Inter-City executive livery version? I've only ever seen the swallow liveried ones?

[mjkerr]

Did they produce an Inter-City executive livery version? I've only ever seen the swallow liveried ones?

Yes, two versions in InterCity livery

I use these for revinyling purposes

 

I have now checked the latest Bachmann Farish underframe on the BSO and it too uses the generic Mark 2E underframe, so is slightly incorrect

Edited February 26, 2013 by mjkerr

[BernardTPM]

I'm not sure on that. I know they did a few Mk.3s with the new clear body in the 'Executive' version, but probably only one run just after they changed over. IIRC the Swallow version was a new addition at that time so didn't appear on the earlier inlay version.

[mjkerr]

0806 TSO
0816 FO
I purchase 0807 TSO as this is incorrect and use for revinyling, but have done some of the above as well

[zigzag]

Very interesting thread, particularly with the recent Bachmann announcement.

 

Could anyone help me with what wa steh ECML MK2 stock in the late 70s/early 80s. From riding behind the Deltics at the time a do remeber many 2Ds with the wood pannelling, but also many 2Fs (?) with the white pannelling.

 

If anyone coudl link me to a resource which maybe shows formations or stock alloactions for this period I would greatly appreciate it.

[Flood]

The BR loco-hauled coaching stock forum which is run by Robert Carroll has a considerable amount of information. https://brcoachingstock.groups.io/g/main

 

The passenger train marshalling booklets for the East Coast for 1977, 1979, 1980, 1982 and 1983 are all available as pdf files. In addition there is a pdf of stock recorded through Doncaster on 18 September 1978 (under Files/Train workings and formations/).

 

The 1979 Platform 5 Coaching Stock Pocket Book lists the following air-con stock on the Eastern Region:

 

Mk2D FO 3170-88

Mk2F FO 3278-81, 84, 87, 92, 3382-90, 3424

 

Mk2D TSO 5616-8, 20-6, 28-43, 45-58, 60-62, 64-76, 79-88, 90-3, 96-5702, 4-7, 9-16, 18-20, 22-25, 27-33, 37-39, 41-43

Mk2F TSO 5912, 26, 46, 55, 56, 6139-43, 54, 61, 69, 70

 

Mk2D BSO 9479, 81-83, 85-89, 92-95

Mk2F BSO 9511, 12, 14, 15

 

Mk2D FK 13562-84

 

Mk2D BFK 14139-61

 

With the arrival of more HSTs the 1980 Platform 5 Coaching Stock Pocket Book lists the following air-con stock on the Eastern Region:

 

Mk2D FO 3170, 71, 73-82, 84-8

Mk2F FO 3279, 92

 

Mk2D TSO 5616-8, 20-6, 28-40, 42, 43, 45-54, 56-58, 60, 62, 64-76, 79-88, 90-3, 96-5701, 5, 6, 9-16, 18, 19, 22-24, 27-32, 38, 39, 41-43

 

Mk2D BSO 9479, 83, 85-89, 92-95

 

Mk2D FK 13563, 67, 69-78, 80-84

 

Mk2D BFK 14143-46, 48-50, 53-55, 57, 58, 61

Edited April 4, 2022 by Flood